Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations

Fire Haired14 said:

My fantasy? Maybe I had a fantasy like 2 years ago, but I don't any more. I just like learning about genetics, even Chinese or Papuan or whatever, I don't care. Of course I'm more into something that relates to me or predominate people in my world but that doesn't mean I'm biased. I don't support Steppe-migration theory because it's my fantasy. I support it because it's basically been proven correct with Ancient DNA. Gene-flow went from Ukraine area all the way to India, Afghanistan, Iran, and even Iraq in the Bronze age. Arguable there's Steppe-ancestry in every part of West Asia via migrations that could have brought R1b-Z2103 and lots of ANE.

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Lmao, can you provide me a study about this? Steppes as PIE urheimat is fantasy, science-fiction. I read at least 10 scientific studies very recently where the denounce west to east steppe migration fantasy. There are no Ukrainian genes in India at all. There is no I2a or N1c1 in India. there is not much of EHG in India, but India has lot's of West Asian DNA, haplogroups and auDNA. R1a-Z93 in India is from BMAC. Either you're not very smart or you act dumb on purpose. This study we are discuss is saying that there was east to west migration and not vice versa. As you can see GREEN entered Yamnaya from the Iranian Plateau. Europeans who arrived in Yamnaya Horizon came from the Iranian Plateau as this SCIENTIFIC paper is claiming. You do know that me as a Kurd, native to West Asia, have much more ANE in me than people in Ukraine?

bicicleur said:

no I didn't read the study, but I will

on the map, the only fixed positions are the green dots
then they drew a tree roughly coming out of Africa and arriving at the green dots, without taking much care about the intermediate positions, which they don't know

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Are you blinded with tears by the stream from the Iranian Plateau into Yamnaya where ' Europeans ' is written?

Goga said:

Are you blinded with tears by the stream from the Iranian Plateau into Yamnaya where ' Europeans ' is written?

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Dude they also have it at 33kya which has no bearing on PIE but I know you don't care about these minor details. This would be like a Gravettian argument, which I would get if you changed the question.

holderlin said:

Dude they also have it at 33kya which has no bearing on PIE but I know you don't care about these minor details. This would be like a Gravettian argument, which I would get if you changed the question.

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Dude, are you the same as Fire Haired? If so, double accouts are not allowed.


It says that than Yamnaya is between 5.3 - 4.7 k years old. Folks from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon. It says that folks who migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon lived on the Iranian Plateau for at least 30 k years. SO those who migrated into Yamnaya were native to the Iranian Plateau. Read the paper.


And the paper doesn't speak about Indo-Europeans but just Europeans. Indo-Europeans could come into Yamnaya from the Maykop with R1b.

Goga said:

Lmao, can you provide me a study about this? Steppes as PIE urheimat is fantasy, science-fiction. I read at least 10 scientific studies very recently where the denounce west to east steppe migration fantasy. There are no Ukrainian genes in India at all. There is no I2a or N1c1 in India. there is not much of EHG in India, but India has lot's of West Asian DNA, haplogroups and auDNA. R1a-Z93 in India is from BMAC. Either you're not very smart or you act dumb on purpose. This study we are discuss is saying that there was east to west migration and not vice versa. As you can see GREEN entered Yamnaya from the Iranian Plateau. Europeans who arrived in Yamnaya Horizon came from the Iranian Plateau as this SCIENTIFIC paper is claiming. You do know that me as a Kurd, native to West Asia, have much more ANE in me than people in Ukraine?

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Maybe I'll read the paper later. I have lots of doubts about it. You having lots of ANE could have a million differnt origins. I don't see what your people's ANE proves.

I agree India has lots of West Asian ancestry. They also have some European ancestry(which is about 50% West Asian), probably less, but still some. Davidski has shown Bronze age Steppe people are a better proxy for the West Eurasian ancestry of SC Asians than any West Asians are. You don't see N1c1 and I2a in India because Sintashta, Snrbya(spelling?), and Andronovo had R1a-Z93.

can somebody explain me what MSMC analysis is?

the first ANE admixture arrived in northeast Europe by mtDNA, not Y DNA

mtDNA haplogroups Z, C & D arrived with pottery for cooking from Siberia (not storage vessels as in SW Asia)
the pottery was probably made by women

more of it :

In many cases mtDna composition is going to tell you a lot more about the autosomal make up of a group of people than the yDna.

Has anyone figured out how to interpret the admxture in the EHG with regard to the Mansi? The Mansi are clearly a mix of Western Siberian and Eastern Siberian, yes?

IMO it is like the 'teal' component in Yamnaya which looks like modern Armenian DNA

the admixture into EHG looks like Mansi, but Mansi was formed at the same time or even later than EHG

Fire Haired14 said:

Maybe I'll read the paper later. I have lots of doubts about it. You having lots of ANE could have a million differnt origins. I don't see what your people's ANE proves.

I agree India has lots of West Asian ancestry. They also have some European ancestry(which is about 50% West Asian), probably less, but still some. Davidski has shown Bronze age Steppe people are a better proxy for the West Eurasian ancestry of SC Asians than any West Asians are. You don't see N1c1 and I2a in India because Sintashta, Snrbya(spelling?), and Andronovo had R1a-Z93.

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ANE has been native to West Asia for a very long time. Older than in Europe.

Exactly, that's why R1a-Z93 in Andronovo is from the Iranian Plateau and not from the western Steppes. There'are no ancient native European haplogroups in the eastern Steppes in Central Asia. There's are scientific studies about it. BMAC is older than Sintashta, Andronovo etc.

Sintashta, Andronovo etc. has nothing to do with migration into India. Folks from BMAC migrated into India. This is a fact.



Davidski is a moron. As a Polish idiot (durak) he lives in his own dream world and tries everything to show that PIE-folks were like Polish folks. He can spend his whole life to proven it, but he will never succeed. Because he lives in a dream world and supports something what never was the case. And in those cases I do call fellas like him as 'natural born losers'.

"mtDNA haplogroups Z, C & D arrived with pottery for cooking from Siberia (not storage vessels as in SW Asia)
the pottery was probably made by women"
"the first ANE admixture arrived in northeast Europe by mtDNA, not Y DNA"
---->
Amazon potteresses from Syberia brought ANE to local R1a boys.

bicicleur said:

IMO it is like the 'teal' component in Yamnaya which looks like modern Armenian DNA

the admixture into EHG looks like Mansi, but Mansi was formed at the same time or even later than EHG

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Well, it's admixture so not quite the same as the stats that came up with "Armenian like", but I get your point.

However, even if the population was just "Mansi-like", wouldn't that still mean that the population that formed part of the EHG "ethnogenesis" had ENA affinities? How does that square with all the amateur analysis that says there isn't any?

bicicleur said:

can somebody explain me what MSMC analysis is?

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http://www.ashg.org/2013meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f130120703.htm

Goga said:

Dude, are you the same as Fire Haired? If so, double accouts are not allowed.


It says that than Yamnaya is between 5.3 - 4.7 k years old. Folks from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon. It says that folks who migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon lived on the Iranian Plateau for at least 30 k years. SO those who migrated into Yamnaya were native to the Iranian Plateau. Read the paper.


And the paper doesn't speak about Indo-Europeans but just Europeans. Indo-Europeans could come into Yamnaya from the Maykop with R1b.

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Fire Haired is much nicer than me, and smarter.

No one's ever disputed that R1-a/b could have arisen on the Iranian plateau, nor was it ever discounted that Iranian plateau is a likely source of the West Asian admixture that we begin to see on the steppe by 5000BC. At this early date it's a much more likely source than The Caucuses.

As to ascribing PIE to BMAC or whatever it is you mean when you say by "IE's moved onto the steppe", I don't know how these new results change the unlikelihood of this model. It's discounted for all the myriad of reasons people have already ran through countless times all over academia and on the internet. Indo-Iranian is downstream of PIE. This is known. There are a bunch of loanwords in Iranian/Aryan and Tocharian that are from a local substrate language, which is probably whatever the BMAC people spoke. And of course BMAC/Central Asian "urbanism" is too late for PIE, BMAC in no way possesses and of the marks of IE culture, BMAC would have had a word for camel for gods sake, but I digress..........

I guess I don't know what you're so excited about. I'm not surprised at old "mongloid" admixture in EHG if this turns out to actually be the case. MA-1 was in Siberia.

Actually the very early teal on the steppe helps to make sense of the freakishly early neolithic seen on the Volga. There seems to domestic livestock at least by 6000BC, which some people have trouble believing, but now that we see the beginnings of genetic contact with West Asia so early on this takes some of the strangeness away.

bicicleur said:

the first ANE admixture arrived in northeast Europe by mtDNA, not Y DNA

mtDNA haplogroups Z, C & D arrived with pottery for cooking from Siberia (not storage vessels as in SW Asia)
the pottery was probably made by women

Kitoi	Russia	Lokomotiv cemetery, Irkutsk		6125–4885 BC			A	2 samples 16223T, 16290T, 16319A	Mooder 2006
Kitoi	Russia	Lokomotiv, Irkutsk		6125–4885 BC			C	16223T, 16298C, 16327T	Mooder 2006
Kitoi	Russia	Lokomotiv, Irkutsk		6125–4885 BC			D	2 samples 16223T	Mooder 2006
Kitoi	Russia	Lokomotiv, Irkutsk		6125–4885 BC			F	2 samples 16232A, 16249C, 16304C, 16311C	Mooder 2006
Kitoi	Russia	Lokomotiv, Irkutsk		6125–4885 BC			G2a	16223T, 16227G, 16278T	Mooder 2006
Kitoi	Russia	Lokomotiv, Irkutsk		6125–4885 BC			U5a	2 samples 16256T, 16270T	Mooder 2006
	Russia	Sok River, Samara [I0124/SVP 44]	M	5650-5555 BC	R1b1a	M343+, L278+, [P297 equivalent PF6513+], M478-, [M478 equivalent Y13872+, Y13866- (The presence of positive and negative markers in the M478 node can reflect an intermediate stage of its formation.)], M478-, M269-	U5a1d		Haak 2015;Sergey Malyshev; Mathieson 2015
	Russia	Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 43 and 45]		7500 BP			U2e	2 samples 16129C, 16189C, 16362C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 16 and 40]		7500 BP			U4	2 samples 16093C, 16356C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 70]		7500 BP			U5a	19192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16318G	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 77]		7500 BP			H?	16235G, 16311C, 16362C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 7 and 8]		7500 BP			C1g	Reported as C1f in Der Sarkissian 2014. 2 samples	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013; Der Sarkissian 2014; Haak 2015
	Russia	Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [I0061/UzOO 74]	M	5500-5000 BC	R1a1*	M459+, Page65.2+, M515-, M198-, M512-, M514-, L449-	C1g	Reported as C1f in Der Sarkissian 2014.	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013; Der Sarkissian 2014; Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015
	Russia	Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [I0211/UzOO 40]	M	5500-5000 BC	J	PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291	U4a		Mathieson 2015
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-3, 57-1]		3500 BP			U4a1	2 samples 16093C, 16129A, 16311C, 16356C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-1, 72-11]		3500 BP			U5a	2 samples 16192T, 16256T, 16270T	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-9, 72-10, 72-14, 78-8]		3500 BP			U5a1	4 samples 16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16399G	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-4]		3500 BP			T*	16093C, 16126C, 16294T	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-2, 49-4, 57-3, 72-2, 72-7, 72-12]		3500 BP			C*	6 samples 16223T, 16298C, 16327C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-5, 72-6]		3500 BP			C5	2 samples 16148T, 16223T, 16288C, 16298C, 16311C, 16327C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-6, 72-13, 72-15]		3500 BP			D*	3 samples 16223T, 16362C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-5, 72-3]		3500 BP			Z1a	2 samples 16129A, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
	Russia	Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-1]		3500 BP			Z1a	16129A, 16155G, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C	Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 54]	M	5616–5482 BC			[T?	16294, 16296. Incomplete sequence. Excluded from Nikitin 2012]	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 36]	M	5557–4792 BC			H	16320T, coding region indicating H	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 45]	M	5471–5223 BC			C	16223T, 16298C, 16327T , coding region not H	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 64]	M	5479–5064 BC			H	rCRS, -7025AluI	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 19]	F	5474–5225 BC			U3	16343G, coding region indicating U/K	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 17]		5437–5090 BC			[?	16241. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 34]		5323–4941 BC			C4a2	16223T, 16298C, 16327T, 16357C, coding region not H	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 32]	M	undated			[T	16294, 16296. Incomplete sequence. Excluded from Nikitin 2012]	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 57]		undated			[H	16241, -7025AluI. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]	Newton 2011
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Dereivka [DD 33]		5000 BC			[H	16311, -7025AluI. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]	Newton 2011
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Nikolskoye [Ni 58]	M	undated			C	16223T, 16298C, 16327T + coding region not H	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Nikolskoye [Ni 94]	F	5358–4993 BC			U5a1a	16256T, 16270T, 16356C, coding region U/K	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Körös	Hungary	Vörs 52		5500 BC			C5	16223T, 16288C, 16298C, 16327T	Guba 2011

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ANE good cook wives theory.

Angela said:

Well, it's admixture so not quite the same as the stats that came up with "Armenian like", but I get your point.

However, even if the population was just "Mansi-like", wouldn't that still mean that the population that formed part of the EHG "ethnogenesis" had ENA affinities? How does that square with all the amateur analysis that says there isn't any?

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the Mansi originate from Siberia so the source of admixture to EHG would also be Siberian ..

do you mean ENA or ANE ?

holderlin said:

ANE good cook wives theory.

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Charred, furry, polar bear on a stick? :grin:

See, my card carrying feminist friends would take offense at that, but not me; I'm a cultural dinosaur. I've found that good cooking keeps not only men, but children, friends and everybody else around, too much so sometimes. If you actually enjoy cooking, it's all good.

Seriously, I'm sure some brawny he-men brought them, but ylines seem to easily get "replaced", or at least that seems to be the recurring theme from some of these papers.

As to some of your comments upthread, you're probably not aware that there's a subtext here because there are indeed some people in the amateur community who have always vehemently denied, on "racial purity" grounds, that EHG have any ENA affinity. The analyses produced have seemed to support that opinion. The same group has also and continues to vehemently object to the idea that R1a/b might have arisen anywhere in the "dark" south of the Caucasus area. It is an article of faith that R arose in and always remained in the pristine, snow covered north.

Should the latter turn out to be the case, I expect a speedy pivot to a position that it doesn't really matter where they arose because
by the time you get to the downstream clades they were completely northern European.

Once you know the motivations, the arguments proposed make a lot more sense. Sad, but true.

I wonder what they were cooking in these pots.
First pottery was invented in the swampy area south of the donwstream Yangtze river, China some 25 ka.
I guess it was for cooking shellfish.
Some 20 ka people arrived in Japan with pottery.
First evicence of collecting rice was just 14 ka in the Yangtze area.
Probably soon after they were cooking millet in northern China.
13 ka the pottery appeared in Manchuria and then spread across southern Siberia.
What they were cooking in Siberia, it is a mysterie.
Fish? Soup of seeds?