Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

Not always, in some academic papers, Poles are significantly more eastern shifted from the Germanic speakers. Just like Tuscans are significantly more Western shifted compared to the Albanians. And it's not even the only one.

balto-slavic-pca.jpg
Im not saying they plot together with Germans or Danes, I?m just saying they?re pulled more West and this is evident even from the 2 maps you provided.

Although these maps (especially the second one) is the weirdest I?ve ever seen. Sorbs are almost Swedes, and Greeks are more north and West than Albanian?

Anyway, if you believe Poles are a good proxy for Early Slavs then I respectfully disagree, not to mention how all these papers marked as ?scientific? are disappointing and laughable at best, claiming Albanians and Greeks are more than 35% Slavic when even their maps don?t indicate that.

1 sentence like that and I lose credibility entirely. To me they?re just a newspaper whose only worth is to provide us with information on their lab work (y-dna, mtdna), bam files, and what references to what the archaeologists said. Their ?scientific explanation? is a big Skip for me.


No no just kidding, keep going :drunk:
 
M1olbRI.png


Balkans_IA is modeled as Slovenian_IA plus Aegean_BA/IA. If anything, populations like Log4 and Log2 who would be closer to Slovenian_IA mixed with Aegean people to create the Balkans IA

QN00ht2.png


More evidence of Northern Balkan samples being similar to North Italians.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94932-9

Combined with Aegean IA, it is easy to see how the pre-Slavic Balkans not only geographically parallels Italy, but genetically as well.
 
Im not saying they plot together with Germans or Danes, I�m just saying they�re pulled more West and this is evident even from the 2 maps you provided.

Although these maps (especially the second one) is the weirdest I�ve ever seen. Sorbs are almost Swedes, and Greeks are more north and West than Albanian?

Anyway, if you believe Poles are a good proxy for Early Slavs then I respectfully disagree, not to mention how all these papers marked as �scientific� are disappointing and laughable at best, claiming Albanians and Greeks are more than 35% Slavic when even their maps don�t indicate that.

1 sentence like that and I lose credibility entirely. To me they�re just a newspaper whose only worth is to provide us with information on their lab work (y-dna, mtdna), bam files, and what references to what the archaeologists said. Their �scientific explanation� is a big Skip for me.


No no just kidding, keep going :drunk:

Not all PCA are meant to be taken literally. It depends on the method.
 
Not all PCA are meant to be taken literally. It depends on the method.

Exactly.

And, imo, not all methods are equally accurate.

Not to mention that just because PCAs are deceptively "easy" to understand, it doesn't mean they're the genetic analysis tool which provides the most accurate representation of similarity in terms of autosomal analysis. Nor do they explain the reasons for the similarity.
 
Not all PCA are meant to be taken literally. It depends on the method.
Ok, thanks for the clarifications.

In that case I?ll stick to ?una faccia una razza? and trust my eyes until further progress in autosomal analysis.
 
QN00ht2.png


More evidence of Northern Balkan samples being similar to North Italians.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94932-9

Combined with Aegean IA, it is easy to see how the pre-Slavic Balkans not only geographically parallels Italy, but genetically as well.


I would say Romans, not pure Italic
these people moved southern when Slavs enter, making some Aromani communities, and or admix with Greeks Albanians etc
 
QN00ht2.png


More evidence of Northern Balkan samples being similar to North Italians.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94932-9

Combined with Aegean IA, it is easy to see how the pre-Slavic Balkans not only geographically parallels Italy, but genetically as well.

Indeed. The evidence has been piling up since Cavalli Sforza opined years ago just based on blood groupings that Northern Italians would plot close to people like the Bulgarians, although the "steppic" element arrived with different invading groups at different periods in history. They would also plot close to Spaniards. Likewise, Albanians plot east of Tuscans. Dienekes was the first to show the same thing using his calculator based on modern populations. As I've mentioned many times, I'm half Northern Italian/half Tuscan-Eastern Ligurian. On calculators with no Northern Italian or Tuscan samples, my closest matches are, variably, Albanian or Bulgarian.

The Northern Balkans plot "east" of Northern Italians, and Albanians plot "east" of Tuscans for the same reason: the "steppic" element in the Balkans and Albania is heavily Slavic (although there is the original steppe arrival as well), while the same element in Northern Italians and Tuscans is "original" steppe in the form of Italics, then Celtic/Gallic, and then a bit of Germanic, groups which plot more northwesterly in terms of European variation.
 
There is this Finish guy on Anthro who is a wiz, Ngansakhan, running, visualizing/contextualizing data, like he is pouring cereal. But he is mostly interested in Finno Urgic peoples :(. The few times Balkans were in his visuals, it was the dopest thing I have seen yet in 6 years on fora.

Just found the images.
This thread has the codes also. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...khan-from-Anthrogenica?highlight=Nganasankhan



admixture-stacked.png


Edit: The images are in very high resolution, right click -> open image in new tab to zoom in.
So basically according to this the Steppe in Albanians is 20%. Fair enough and in accordance to other charts I?ve seen.

How much of it is Indo-European, Central-North European, or Slavic is up to people?s personal speculation.

I personally believe it?s approximately max. the percentage of (R1a + I2a-Din)/2, taking into consideration a male dominant migration as well as the probability that they were local Balkan admixed already.
 
Interesting for those related to R1b-CTS 1450 downstream markers.
Grave number 97-R1b-CTS1450. Sarmatian/Alan
I15552 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis>R1b-Z2103 Z2110>Y5592>CTS1450.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...man_necropolis_at_slog_in_Ravna_Timacum_Minus

Grave 97Sondage F II (VII)/1995.
Remains of a stone construction around the skull.
The bottom of the burial pit at a relative depth of 2.00 m.
Orientation: west-east.Skeleton supine with legs extended.
Finds (Pl. VII, 5):
1. a shank of an iron spear to the right of the skull,7 2. a leaf-shaped iron arrowhead in the region of theright pelvic bone,71
3. an animal bone (sheep or goat’s pelvic bone) in
the region of the chest.
Note: The grave was probably robbed, since the

leg bones were dislocated

Furthermore, in grave 97, in the region of the chestof the buried individual, an animal bone, part of the
pelvis of a goat or a sheep, was found. This was a rem-
nant of a posthumous feast, given as an offering to the
deceased. The placement of meat into the grave is not
a part of the Roman burial ritual, whilst posthumous
feasts are characteristic of the funerary cult of the late
phase of the Chernyakhov – Sântana de Mureºculture.92
It is therefore fair to assume that the buried men were
newcomers, most probably recruited from within the
ranks of the Danube foederati. In addition, the type of
the weaponry points to the Gothic foederati from the
Lower Danube, the majority of which made up theinfantry, but also the equestrian units formed under theinfluence of Sarmatian tribes, primarily the Alans.93 In
any case, the Alano-Hunnic steppe component of the
auxiliary units of the Roman light cavalry, in the eastern
part of the Empire in the time of Theodosius I, can also
be observed at the Late Roman Slog necropolis through

the finds of the tri-bladed arrowheads
 
So basically according to this the Steppe in Albanians is 20%. Fair enough and in accordance to other charts I�ve seen.

How much of it is Indo-European, Central-North European, or Slavic is up to people�s personal speculation.

I personally believe it�s approximately max. the percentage of (R1a + I2a-Din)/2, taking into consideration a male dominant migration as well as the probability that they were local Balkan admixed already.

Interesting chart, but why are Sicilians and South Italians shown without any Steppe at all?:confused:

Or is it just zero Baltic-like?
 
Interesting chart, but why are Sicilians and South Italians shown without any Steppe at all?:confused:

Or is it just zero Baltic-like?

Sorry, wrong thread.
 
So basically according to this the Steppe in Albanians is 20%. Fair enough and in accordance to other charts I�ve seen.

How much of it is Indo-European, Central-North European, or Slavic is up to people�s personal speculation.

I personally believe it�s approximately max. the percentage of (R1a + I2a-Din)/2, taking into consideration a male dominant migration as well as the probability that they were local Balkan admixed already.

Likely more. Blue looks modern Baltic/maybe even Slavic.
Steppe on the other hand had a lot of Caucasian in it, modern pops such as the red bar, and in combination with yellow that should yield likely another 10-20%.

Nganasankhan likely did not model it like most papers do with ancient pops, rather typical modern pops.

I personally have 35%-45% Steppe depending on Model. Contrary to some people even on this forum would have you believe, Slavs were not the only steppe impact on Albanians. Much earlier Migration such as the Yamnaya in fact in my opinion are the majority of the steppe component in Albanians. Otherwise how would you explain 35% Steppe in Malësors, who only have 3% R1a/I2a1 combined.

I guess it takes an Albanian to notice, since Greeks and Italians are fine with the hypothesis that if there is any steppe in the Balkans its all Slavic. Completely forgetting BGR_IA and HRV_MBA and Maros EBA or even Helladic EBA/MBA (all had 30-50% Steppe IIRC). Then everyone says, but yeah we should look at historical context, archeology and what not, but in reality they do not themselves.

Angela a year or two ago was trying to convince me that if Albanians can digest lactose today, it is all thanks to Slavs. Forgetting that in the mountains of Albania if you are not a shepherd you either are a cannibal or you die.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The worst part is when I will have such objections, most people take it personally and project really hard. When I am just stating facts that in the back of my mind rise paradoxes when I hear such theories. Meaning, nothing personal.

Looking to get WGS myself, in anticipation of the North Albania samples coming out in a week or two. Then hopefully I can reliably use calculators, or even get someone with coding skills to run Fstats, so I can get a grasp on my own Slavic ancestry. Really interested. Since I do get 10% Baltic in K15, and 20%! on K10. Really hope to understand when my ancestral lines got that component. Also having read some Orell, I think this all ties up to the Albanian language shprachsbund, so it is a major point of interest for me, knowing of the Germano/Baltic/Slavic connection Albanian has in combination to the very early Latin and Greek connections.

About Archeology I am happy to read differing theories between Riverman/Aspurg/Hawk.

About genetics I will trust my own analytical skills.
 
Hmm... wonder what happened there.

You have something to say, say it. Preferably in the right thread, however.

I'm dying to discover what nefarious plot or plan or b.s. you've thought up.
 
Why are South Italians and Sicilians shown as having zero Baltic-like/Steppe?
 
Why are South Italians and Sicilians shown as having zero Baltic-like/Steppe?

It's more nonsense gibberish from an Anthrogenica user.

There's no actual "steppe" reference at all. Pink is Nganasan, so East Asian admixed; brown is Anatolian Neolithic or hunter-gatherer, blue is Russian hunter-gatherer from Samara, and yellow is Estonian hunter-gatherer.

There's not a single "real" Indo-European with CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry. It's basically two clusters of EHG, one from Anatolian Boncuklu, and one from a modern East Asian admixed group.

I don't see how it's of any use whatsoever.
 
Likely more. Blue looks modern Baltic/maybe even Slavic.
Steppe on the other hand had a lot of Caucasian in it, modern pops such as the red bar, and in combination with yellow that should yield likely another 10-20%.

Nganasankhan likely did not model it like most papers do with ancient pops, rather typical modern pops.

I personally have 35%-45% Steppe depending on Model. Contrary to some people even on this forum would have you believe, Slavs were not the only steppe impact on Albanians. Much earlier Migration such as the Yamnaya in fact in my opinion are the majority of the steppe component in Albanians. Otherwise how would you explain 35% Steppe in Malësors, who only have 3% R1a/I2a1 combined.

I guess it takes an Albanian to notice, since Greeks and Italians are fine with the hypothesis that if there is any steppe in the Balkans its all Slavic. Completely forgetting BGR_IA and HRV_MBA and Maros EBA or even Helladic EBA/MBA (all had 30-50% Steppe IIRC). Then everyone says, but yeah we should look at historical context, archeology and what not, but in reality they do not themselves.

Angela a year or two ago was trying to convince me that if Albanians can digest lactose today, it is all thanks to Slavs. Forgetting that in the mountains of Albania if you are not a shepherd you either are a cannibal or you die.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The worst part is when I will have such objections, most people take it personally and project really hard. When I am just stating facts that in the back of my mind rise paradoxes when I hear such theories. Meaning, nothing personal.

Looking to get WGS myself, in anticipation of the North Albania samples coming out in a week or two. Then hopefully I can reliably use calculators, or even get someone with coding skills to run Fstats, so I can get a grasp on my own Slavic ancestry. Really interested. Since I do get 10% Baltic in K15, and 20%! on K10. Really hope to understand when my ancestral lines got that component. Also having read some Orell, I think this all ties up to the Albanian language shprachsbund, so it is a major point of interest for me, knowing of the Germano/Baltic/Slavic connection Albanian has in combination to the very early Latin and Greek connections.

About Archeology I am happy to read differing theories between Riverman/Aspurg/Hawk.

About genetics I will trust my own analytical skills.
Thanks for the explanation. I agree with you on this.

No idea what WGS is but once those North Albania results are out I'll be interested to check it for myself too.
 
@Arch0type

These names (the authors) don't strike me as Greek or Italian, with the exception of Lazaridis.

Iñigo Olalde, Pablo Carrión, Ilija Mikić, Nadin Rohland, Shop Mallick, Iosif Lazaridis, Miomir Korać, Snežana Golubović, Sofija Petković, Nataša Miladinović-Radmilović, Dragana Vulović, Kristin Stewardson, Ann Marie Lawson, Fatma Zalzala, Kim Callan, Željko Tomanović, Dušan Keckarević, Miodrag Grbić, Carles Lalueza-Fox, David Reich

There is no conspiracy or bias, these are the results of the paper. In fact it seems very obvious to me, and has for a while. I have said before this pre-print in speculation, that Albanians were probably southern Italian-like before Slavic input. Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. Balkan_IA is mostly Aegean_IA, plus Slovenian IA, how does that not make sense?
 
@Arch0type
These names (the authors) don't strike me as Greek or Italian, with the exception of Lazaridis.
Iñigo Olalde, Pablo Carrión, Ilija Mikić, Nadin Rohland, Shop Mallick, Iosif Lazaridis, Miomir Korać, Snežana Golubović, Sofija Petković, Nataša Miladinović-Radmilović, Dragana Vulović, Kristin Stewardson, Ann Marie Lawson, Fatma Zalzala, Kim Callan, Željko Tomanović, Dušan Keckarević, Miodrag Grbić, Carles Lalueza-Fox, David Reich
There is no conspiracy or bias, these are the results of the paper. In fact it seems very obvious to me, and has for a while. I have said before this pre-print in speculation, that Albanians were probably southern Italian-like before Slavic input. Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. Balkan_IA is mostly Aegean_IA, plus Slovenian IA, how does that not make sense?
So how much slavic ancestry do you believe Greeks and Albanians have if we assume that modern South slavs have on average 40-55% ancestry associated with slavs?
 

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