Estimating the Y-DNA and autosomal admixtures of Yamnaya samples

How do you explain whg in India/Iran? Or there is no such thing as whg in India/Iran?
 
arvistro said:
How do you explain whg in India/Iran? Or there is no such thing as whg in India/Iran?
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It could come much later with East-Iranic tribes that lived in the Steppes. Like back migration of Sarmatians, Scythians. It has been proven that Scythians, Alanians etc. migrated back into the Western Iranian Plateau from the Northern Caucasus. There is some very recent Y-DNA hg. I2a and European R1a-Z282 in Kurdistan & Western Iran. These very young haplogroups came probably with the Sarmatians, Scythians. But the original proto-Iranians predate those Sarmatians, Scythians etc. by more than 1000 years. Although WHG around the Iranian Plateau could be also very, very ancient and predate proto-Indo-Europeans. We don't have ancient auDNA of West Asian people. Iranic tribes like the Medes, Persians etc were native to West Asia!
 
Wait a sec. Would be interesting to see the exact subclades of I2a and Z282 in Iran to check when exactly they went there. If those are old enough and have no younger Euro counterparts (like Z282*) then it actually proves the opposite - that they came together with IEs.
 
arvistro said:
Wait a sec. Would be interesting to see the exact subclades of I2a and Z282 in Iran to check when exactly they went there. If those are old enough and have no younger Euro counterparts (like Z282*) then it actually proves the opposite - that they came together with IEs.
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Sorry, stop dreaming. There is no I2a and Z282 in India and Central Asia at all, only in Kurdistan. But in Kurdistan R1a is very diverse. From very ancient R1a* to very recent ones of Iranic R1a-Z93 types and European types of R1a-Z282. The diversity and variation of R1a in Kurdistan is VERY high. There're many different types of R1a* in Kurdistan. I do belong to R1a* which is NEITHER Z93 NOR Z282. We have even R1a which is ancestral to both: Z93 and Z282. Could be best indication that R1a is actually from Kurdistan..
 
arvistro said:
So, Indian WHG arrived with IE-ans then?
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Do they have WHG? If so, how much? According to the latest scientific paper from HARVARD they have no WHG at all or very very little and that proto-Indo-Europeans came from the Maykop/Leyla-Tepe
: " Genetic evidence ruled out one likely related group in the region, the Yamnaya, because their DNA showed the group had hunter-gatherer ancestry, which is inconsistent with the fact that two Indo-European groups, Armenians and Indians, don’t share it, Patterson said. " http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/
 
Goga said:
Do they have WHG? If so, how much? According to the latest scientific paper from HARVARD they have no WHG at all or very very little and that proto-Indo-Europeans came from the Maykop/Leyla-Tepe
: " Genetic evidence ruled out one likely related group in the region, the Yamnaya, because their DNA showed the group had hunter-gatherer ancestry, which is inconsistent with the fact that two Indo-European groups, Armenians and Indians, don’t share it, Patterson said. " http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/
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Maciamo said:
Be it in India, Central Asia, Siberia or even Mongolia, there is always WHG and ANE admixture wherever R1a1a and R1b1a (M269 or M73) are found. However that is not true for the African R1b1c (V88), perhaps because it was too diluted on the way, or because R1b people did not acquire WHG until they mixed with the aboriginal Steppe people (R1a).

You can see by yourself in the admixture above in which populations the blue, pink and beige admixtures are present.
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I see some contradiction in above statements. I am in no position to argue, hope some consensus is reached.
 
arvistro said:
I see some contradiction in above statements. I am in no position to argue, hope some consensus is reached.
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There is ANE in India but no WHG. Maciamo is not from HARVARD and he didn't write the latest paper and he is not even part of any research team. He is just giving his own opinion and he is not the real authority on this field. That's all. I can say I'm Annunaki (Alien-GOD) from Nibiru and came down to earth and settled in Kurdistan during the Sumerian times. But do I have proves to this wild and crazy claims? People can say & claim whatever they want, but to be taken seriously they need to come up with real and hard evidences!
 
Goga said:
Proto-Indo-Europeans came from Leyla-Tepe, Yamna was astop between Leyla-Tepe/Mayko and Europe. ANE has been always present in WestAsia, since ANE is from Asia. The distribution of ANE was always like that in(West) Asia. West Asia borders Caucasus and SouthCentral Asia. ANE was a geneflow from those areas into West Asia for thousands of years, even before Indo-Europeansexisted. ANE in West Asia is much older than the Indo-Europeans.
While ANE in Europe came from Indo-Europeans. Becauseproto-Indo-Europeans who cam from Leyla-Tepe already had ANE in them. But aftermoving into Northern Caucasus they got even MORE ANE before migrating intoEurope.

1. Proto-Indo-Europeansareform Leyla-Tepe/Maykop.
2. ANE in West Asia(Leyla-Tepe) existed there thousands of years before proto-Indo-Europeans evenexisted.
Kurgans in Maykop and Leyla-Tepe are OLDER than in Maykop !!!
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The East Euro component in K15 is probably of Yamna origin, whether we think they were PIE or not is up to debate.

Yamna-type people caused a genetic turnover in Europe and probably brought Indo European languages, who the several different groups were who brought IE languages to west Asia is another debate. West and south Asians lacking WHG is why some think it came through the Caucasus into west and south Asia.

I don't see how ANE in west Asia comes from the European steppe, like most European ANE, because Mesolithic Russians were around 50% WHG, while west Asians have little such ancestry, and more ANE than Europeans on average. Davidski at Eurogenes is confusing people to think all non-south Asian and Amerindian ANE is from a bronze age migration out of Russia. This doesn't work for west Asia. He hasn't considered the possibility that somewhere along Anatolia-India there was a mostly ANE population.
 
Krefter14 said:
The East Euro component in K15 is probably of Yamna origin, whether we think they were PIE or not is up to debate.

Yamna-type people caused a genetic turnover in Europe and probably brought Indo European languages, who the several different groups were who brought IE languages to west Asia is another debate. West and south Asians lacking WHG is why some think it came through the Caucasus into west and south Asia.

I don't see how ANE in west Asia comes from the European steppe, like most European ANE, because Mesolithic Russians were around 50% WHG, while west Asians have little such ancestry, and more ANE than Europeans on average. Davidski at Eurogenes is confusing people to think all non-south Asian and Amerindian ANE is from a bronze age migration out of Russia. This doesn't work for west Asia. He hasn't considered the possibility that somewhere along Anatolia-India there was a mostly ANE population.
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Exactly, I believe that ANE from Kurdistan, Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau up to Central Asia are just native to that region. Iranian Plateau and Central Asia are directly linked to each other and are actually part of the same region. Why should ANE in Central Asia be native and not native in Iran? There's no water/ocean in between. They are in the same region. ANE in Caucasus could be bottle-necked after it arrived from West Asia. But it also can be that ANE is just native all the way from Caucasus to Iranian Plateau up to Central Asia.

Indo-Europeans in Europe arrived from Yamnaya. But then again Yamna was in turn Indo-Europized by folks from Maykop / Leyla-Tepe. Therefore Europe-Indo-Europeans are from Yamna horizon, and Indo-Europeans in West Asia and India are directly from Maykop and Leyla-Tepe. Yamnaya acted just like an intermediate station between Maykop and Europe.


People from Eurogenes are plain idiots. They think that they can deceive people with their low intelligence and low education. They do underestimate people a lot, lol.
 
Krefter14 said:
Davidski at Eurogenes is confusing people to think all non-south Asian and Amerindian ANE is from a bronze age migration out of Russia. This doesn't work for west Asia. He hasn't considered the possibility that somewhere along Anatolia-India there was a mostly ANE population.
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So why ANE didn't come to europe with first ENF farmers?
 
arvistro said:
Wait a sec. Would be interesting to see the exact subclades of I2a and Z282 in Iran to check when exactly they went there. If those are old enough and have no younger Euro counterparts (like Z282*) then it actually proves the opposite - that they came together with IEs.
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I think that the amount of I2 in Kurds has been overstated a bit in the past. They seem to have low-single-digits I2, with the only well studied sample I know of being a Sorani Kurd who carries I2-M223>L1229, an otherwise quite European subclade. IIRC there was also a Kurd who likely carried I2c but didn't get enough testing done to confirm it. Alan has kept track of Kurdish Y-DNA, here and elsewhere.

Interestingly, I* has been found in a Hazara and IJ* has been found in a Persian, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that. I discussed those samples in detail here.
 
Goga said:

Exactly, I believe that ANE from Kurdistan, Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau up to Central Asia are just native to that region. Iranian Plateau and Central Asia are directly linked to each other and are actually part of the same region. Why should ANE in Central Asia be native and not native in Iran? There's no water/ocean in between. They are in the same region. ANE in Caucasus could be bottle-necked after it arrived from West Asia. But it also can be that ANE is just native all the way from Caucasus to Iranian Plateau up to Central Asia.

.
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Do you really believe that Kurds , armenians and assyrians will show the same levels of ANE ?................clearly as for Haplogroup percentages , they are different.

IMO, kurds came via central asia thourgh BMC and through northern iran and settled where they are now. They brought the ANE.
 
Sile said:
Do you really believe that Kurds , armenians and assyrians will show the same levels of ANE ?................clearly as for Haplogroup percentages , they are different.

IMO, kurds came via central asia thourgh BMC and through northern iran and settled where they are now. They brought the ANE.
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Kurds have much more ANE than Assyrians and Armenians, and Kurds should have even more ANE if there was no Scytho-Sarmatian migration into Kurdistan who brought I2a and R1a-Z282 (WHG) into Kurdistan. I mean I've at least 8 % of WHG, and I believe it's from them (Sarmatians). Because of those Sarmatians who brought WHG into Kurdistan we have even LESS ANE.
But Kurds have more ANE because Armenians and Assyrians are NOT native to Kurdistan / Zagros Mountains. Assyrians are Semitic people and are originally either from Southern Levant or Arabistan. Armenians were neighbours of the ancient Greeks and thus also lived in Western Anatolia and NOT in Zagros. ANE in Assyrians is actually from Kurds.
Kurds should have more ANE and at least same level of ANE as Northern Caucaus folks if there was no back migration of East-Iranic people into Kurdistan from the Northern Caucasus, Scytho-Sarmantians.

Assyrians and Armenians don't have as much R1a as Kurds, while Assyrians don't even have a lot of J2a. The most important haplogroups among Kurds are R1a AND J2a. Whie Assyrians and Armenians have different main haplogroups..

The Zagros Mountains (native homeland of Kurds, Kurdistan) are part of the Iranian Plateau. And Assyrians & Armenian are NOT from the Iranian Plateau / Kurdistan / Zagros Mountains. If Kurds were from BMAC we would have even much more South Asian auDNA. Kurds don't have much of South Asian Y-DNA like Y-DNA H, L etc. either..
 
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LeBrok said:
So why ANE didn't come to europe with first ENF farmers?
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Very simple, the farmers that migrated into Europe were not from the Maykop, Zagros Mountains, Leyla-Tepe or the Iranian Plateau. Farmers that migrated into Europe lived much closer toward the The Mediterranen Sea, the Levant maybe even Northern Africa!!!
 
sparkey said:
I think that the amount of I2 in Kurds has been overstated a bit in the past. They seem to have low-single-digits I2, with the only well studied sample I know of being a Sorani Kurd who carries I2-M223>L1229, an otherwise quite European subclade. IIRC there was also a Kurd who likely carried I2c but didn't get enough testing done to confirm it. Alan has kept track of Kurdish Y-DNA, here and elsewhere.

Interestingly, I* has been found in a Hazara and IJ* has been found in a Persian, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that. I discussed those samples in detail here.
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I've at least 8% of WHG in me and most Kurds have between 8%-10% of WHG. Where is this from? Not from SouthCentral Asia, that's for sure, because there is nor WHG. And I'm sure WHG in Kurds has been diluted. It was more in the past, let say 2000 years ago, after Scytho-Sarmatians arrived and mixed with the Medes. So, I think that Kurds have at least 10% of I2a. According to Eupedia Kurds have between 17%-20 % of I2a. If you take into consideration that 8% of WHG in Kurds was a little bit higher in the past, I think in reality Kurds have more than 10%-15% of I2a. Scytho-Sarmatians were assimilated by the Medes and the Western Persian tribes and Scytho-Sarmatians were also only partly WHG partly ANE and partly ENF, because of their East Iranic origin in SouthCentral Asia...
 
Goga said:

Kurds should have more ANE and at least same level of ANE as Northern Caucaus folks if there was no back migration of East-Iranic people into Kurdistan from the Northern Caucasus, Scytho-Sarmantians.
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Do you find this statement logical?
 
arvistro said:
Do you find this statement logical?
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Yes when I wrote this I thought about it. Folks in Northern Caucasus have for about 5% more ANE than Kurds. But they are not Iranic (or even Indo-European). They speak Caucasian languages. East Iranic folks, like Scythians, came actually from SouthCentral Asia. SouthCentral Asia was homeland of the Scythians. They had a lot of ENF. But moving toward Europe they mixed with the native European population. So they picked up more WHG. So Scytho-Sarmatians were more WHG and more ENF than North Caucasian speaking people. Caucasian speaking people had much less WHG. That's why Caucasian speaking folks had MORE ANE than Scytho-Sarmatians. And those Scytho-Sarmatians migrated also into Kurdistan brought more WHG with them. And therefore Kurds get lesser ANE than people in Northern Caucasus and SouthCentral Asia. The Medes (proto-Kurds) and the ancient Western Persian tribes had more ANE, same level as Northen Caucaus and SouthCentral Asia, but they mixed with the Alanians and Scytho-Sarmatians and later even with the Semitic speaking peoples like Chaldeans (Babylonians) ...
 
LeBrok said:
So why ANE didn't come to europe with first ENF farmers?
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Because it wasn't in the Near east. There could have been very ANE-type people in eastern Iran. If ANE in west Asia came from Europe, we would see much more WHG in west Asia(Mesolithic Russians were as much or more WHG than ANE), if it came from south Asia, we should see much more south-Asian specific ancestry. It looks like a close to pure-ANE population or ANE+near eastern population, gave west Asians ANE.
 
Interesting, 24000 years ago 100% ANE boy was in Irkutsk, Russia. I think ANE is actually defined as Mal'ta boy, right?
He was also R*, U*.
Now you say ANE originated/peaked in Iran or in Kurds? Karitiana folk in Brazil have 40% ANE, hmm...
 
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