Debate Should Greece leave the EU?

I think it's the same old issue: No European citizen wants to work their posteriors off, pay taxes regularly, end up paying for less developed countries in the Balkans. I think Greece was never, realistically speaking, economically fit enough to enter the EU. Naturally, I think the same goes for most countries in Balkans. Certainly, I do not agree with the policies that our government is running in my country (I would rather say detest them), and I am very much aware as how things run down here. In Kosovo all of us pay taxes regularly, despite low wages and everything, and we are furious as hell that most of our money goes for buying new cars and private helicopters for government officials. To hell with it, that makes us furious! Therefore, to plainly draw parallels, it is the same with Greece and EU.
 
mrikë said:
I think it's the same old issue: No European citizen wants to work their posteriors off, pay taxes regularly, end up paying for less developed countries in the Balkans. I think Greece was never, realistically speaking, economically fit enough to enter the EU. Naturally, I think the same goes for most countries in Balkans. Certainly, I do not agree with the policies that our government is running in my country (I would rather say detest them), and I am very much aware as how things run down here. In Kosovo all of us pay taxes regularly, despite low wages and everything, and we are furious as hell that most of our money goes for buying new cars and private helicopters for government officials. To hell with it, that makes us furious! Therefore, to plainly draw parallels, it is the same with Greece and EU.
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Yes, greece was not fit for the EURO. But GS has helped greece to cheat into EURO, while our EU politicians closed their eyes. Due to the common EURO, greek economy could not get a grip to compete to stronger EU countries, but instead interest rates were low. Of course, corrupt politicians were always at place too.
The story of greece reminds me of the same story that happened to East German economy during the 90s, after the DM was introduced. East Germany is still mostly sponsored by West Germany, while Poland and Czech Republic with their own currencies were able to evolve successfully. Of course, East Germany had a higher living standard back then, but thats just because of common german welfare.
 
ElHorsto said:
EDIT: Instead they were waiting all the time for convergence, until divergence occured finally as predicted.
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Just found a citation of former ECB chief economist Stark from 17.12.2011. His reasons for resignation was frustration about politicians rather than private reasons. According to him, the ECB warned very strongly in 2005 about diverging economies, but nobody cared:

Vor den Fehlentwicklungen in der Euro-Zone, die zu der gegenwärtigen Krise geführt haben, habe die Zentralbank rechtzeitig gewarnt. "Auf die unterschiedliche Entwicklung der Lohnstückkosten in der Euro-Zone haben wir schon 2005 sehr deutlich hingewiesen. Die Politik hat das damals nicht als akutes Problem angesehen", sagte Stark.

http://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Stark-offenbart-sich-article5023056.html
 
ElHorsto said:
Yes, greece was not fit for the EURO. But GS has helped greece to cheat into EURO, while our EU politicians closed their eyes. Due to the common EURO, greek economy could not get a grip to compete to stronger EU countries, but instead interest rates were low. Of course, corrupt politicians were always at place too.
The story of greece reminds me of the same story that happened to East German economy during the 90s, after the DM was introduced. East Germany is still mostly sponsored by West Germany, while Poland and Czech Republic with their own currencies were able to evolve successfully. Of course, East Germany had a higher living standard back then, but thats just because of common german welfare.
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It seems like you can find the hidden letters,

your point is much close to truth,
 
They should neither leave the Euro nor the Euroean Union. Both pretty bad ideas, economically and politically.
 
clark85 said:
They should neither leave the Euro nor the Euroean Union. Both pretty bad ideas, economically and politically.
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a good question is should denmark ( and others) join the euro.
my opinion is no especially since these currency wars are being fought by USA and China
 
There is no question about Greece leaving the EU here, but the Eurozone. From the very beginning, the Euro' Achilles Heel was the impossibility to devaluate. If exceptions had been made when the euro was at its strongest, exportations could have been boosted in countries that were in dire needs to increase their exports. The lack of flexibility and versatilty (and of imagination) of some leaders will eventually lead to its demise. Matter of time.
 
Cimmerianbloke said:
There is no question about Greece leaving the EU here, but the Eurozone. From the very beginning, the Euro' Achilles Heel was the impossibility to devaluate. If exceptions had been made when the euro was at its strongest, exportations could have been boosted in countries that were in dire needs to increase their exports. The lack of flexibility and versatilty (and of imagination) of some leaders will eventually lead to its demise. Matter of time.
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True that is the biggest weakness of the Euro. This story has two sides as well. Economically weaker countries like Greece or Portugal will not have the opportunity to devaluate their currency and thus willl stay economically weaker. Other countries like Germany, France and Italy with a strong economy have benefitted by this for many years though, because their currenty was worth less than it actually should be. In the end the strong economies will pay for the weak ones and that's it.
 
Does anyone really believe that economies like Greece or Portugal can rival Italy's or Germany's? That is total nonsense and that is why the Eurozone is bound to fail. Competition is what made European economies thrive for centuries, not cooperation. Unless you create your very own fiscal paradise, like Switzerland and Luxembourg have done, you are tied to your population size and natural resources/services. Hence the current problems. Creating a socialist-like compound based on solidarity and welfare-state is going against the rule that market economies are fueled by competition. There's only one number one, the others are only second-best and the weakest are bound to disappear.
 
Cimmerianbloke said:
There's only one number one, the others are only second-best and the weakest are bound to disappear.
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I'm not sure if you are criticising or advocating, but in any case I think the above is exactly what the EURO has mostly accomplished.
 
before I start talking

admistrators, please do not merge my new account with the previous one, as that has (in previous attempt) made my account not usable - getting "server too busy" message almost every time I try to load a page or submit a comment on the forum when logged in, and having my posts (achieved after zillion trials to submit them) look messed up due to losing all empty lines and many spaces)

cause of economical crisis in EU is clear. It is obvious from realizing that the gain in trade of Germany in last year corresponds more or less precisely to sum of deficit of other countries.

Point is EU is made by merging countries of unequal economies. When import/export taxes were removed, creating one big market, result was that small markets with not so good economy could not keep up with more efficent economies. In round of years, companies from the countries with more efficient economies (i.e. Germany) have penetrated markets that were previously protected by high import taxes. Local producers of goods were losing battle on those markets and were slowly going out of business.

If Germany has played strategically, companies from Germany could have economically conquer Europe - by starting production in the countries in which they took over the market. However, they didnot do that, which resulted in economic crisis in those countries, as with local economies collapsing more and more people were losing jobs.

Giving credits to Greece does not help Greece. If one owes a lot, you do not help him by giving person more credit.

EU was made in wrong way. It should have started with several regions of more or less equal economies. Only countries from same regions should have had tax free trade.. lets name clear regions: Germanic lands (Scandinavia, Benelux and Germany), Mediterranean lands and east Europe. Euro may have been deployed in all EU countries, but only regions of more or less similar economies would initially have free trade. Later, if the economies become more balanced (not sure that would ever happen as differences in efficiency of economies are tied to mentality and history and those two are tied to climate and geographical position) whole EU could become free trade zone. This way Mediterranian and east Europe countries practically commited suicide by entering EU and Germanic countries have won something only in short term, as getting a market full of poor people is not really a market where you can sell much except food.

its not Greece to blame for the problems it faces, and its not also Germany to blame. Architects of EU system are to blame because they did not carefully think of the consequences.
 
Not only Greece

Why everybody hates Greece so much? Yes, we got problems, but there are other forces that want us down. America forced us to freeze the Burgas-Alexandroupoli pipeline by pushing hard on Bulgaria and that came with embargo on oil supplies from Iran and Greece received 35% of its oil needs from there allowing us unlimited credit. We lost a source of cheap oil and that hit out economy because USA and EU gave us no alternative. America and Europe fending for themselves and it seems they don't care at all about those who got problems, especially Greece. After that I'm sure that America is full of dissemblers because US Congress is really double-dealing. Look at BP, they continue working with Iran within the Shah Deniz II project where Iran own 10%, making billions of dollars while Greece forced in exchange for help to support any decision against Iran. How that's possible? Greece never denied the fact that it got problems, but why we should be fools of circumstances in US-Europe confrontation with Iran?
 
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Originally Posted by Cimmerianbloke
There's only one number one, the others are only second-best and the weakest are bound to disappear.


ElHorsto said:
I'm not sure if you are criticising or advocating, but in any case I think the above is exactly what the EURO has mostly accomplished.
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Actually, I am neither criticiting nor advocating, I am just stating a fact. As you can confirm, the imbalance of economic systems acted as a catalyst to split them even deeper. Germany came up first hands down, while troubled economies are bound to sink. How yes no3 has meade a clever point too. I suppose most people with a basic knowledge of politics and economics would come to the same conclusion.
 
Greece should be forced out of the EU. Their welfare state and corruption are a drag to progress. 1/3 of their population works for the state, 50% of their GDP is underground, and their enforcement of tax law is non-committal. Austerity should be enforced. The German taxpayer should not be held liable for providing their entitlement programs and lavish pensions.
 
Obama bin Lyin said:
Greece should be forced out of the EU. Their welfare state and corruption are a drag to progress. 1/3 of their population works for the state, 50% of their GDP is underground, and their enforcement of tax law is non-committal. Austerity should be enforced. The German taxpayer should not be held liable for providing their entitlement programs and lavish pensions.
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I agree, but what about the Greek oil?

maybe then Greece, Cyprus etc was better to ask help from Russia and China, help to drill and protect their oil, and sell it really expensive to USA and rest Europe.
and in case you don't know the Russian fleet already pass the Hellispontos yesterday (Dardanellia) and is the same size with US 6th fleet

in case you are not well informed, the next memorandum is probably the license to drill the oil, at the cheapest cost, giving nothing to Greeks,

situation is much more complex than you think.
 
That's some username pal.

Welfare states are common throughout the EU and Europe in general, Greece is hardly the only one.
 
Keegah. Welfare states are common throughout the EU and Europe in general said:
Indeed.
Also if you just throw countries out of the union how long before you end up with something looking less of a European Union and more like an "old boys" club?
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I think all countries should leave this union. I do not believe in the intertwining of our financial markets. In America we suffer for Europe's markets and we are not in this union. All of this is part of the greater plan by allowing 3 world immigrants to flood across our borders to break the European strong hold we have enjoyed for so long. The long term goal here people is all races mixed all nations on earth as one One People One Earth laugh all you want it's coming because in Europe and the USA people have lost the will to fight but our enemy's have not
 
L.D.Brousse said:
I think all countries should leave this union. I do not believe in the intertwining of our financial markets. In America we suffer for Europe's markets and we are not in this union. All of this is part of the greater plan by allowing 3 world immigrants to flood across our borders to break the European strong hold we have enjoyed for so long. The long term goal here people is all races mixed all nations on earth as one One People One Earth laugh all you want it's coming because in Europe and the USA people have lost the will to fight but our enemy's have not
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The crisis is not only in Europe,
It is also in USA,
consider what happened with Lehman's Brothers, and affect had in EU,
the crisis is moral, not economical,
why it is moral?
cause we send in prison protesters or 'small fish'
but we cover the 'big fish' since they own media or Banks,

The most wise I have heard about the crisis in East and West of Atlantic was by Iceland's prime minister,

When the Bank earn money, the profit is shared among managers and some 'shares' not to the whole country.
When the Bank has damage or loss, the damage and the loss is not paid by managers or shares, but from innocent people taxes,

WE ARE All LIVING THE DICTATORSHIP OF THE BANKSTERS (compare Gangsters)

PS
just considered that a famous athletic corporation well known as US American one has to produce a shoe in US from 1950,
 
L.D.Brousse said:
In America we suffer for Europe's markets and we are not in this union.
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No, it is europe who suffers mostly for US' debt now. Greece is just a red herring.
 
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