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Re Wilhelm: Thanks for the additional confirmation/correction. Sounds like consensus to me.
Re Brady: Well... at least this is sounding like serious debate. Unless others get to your post before I finish typing this one, let me challenge this in particular:
Germans don't say that they're Celts because they're modern Germans, and have a lot of Germanic blood from times like the Migration Period, but to deny that Western Germanic speakers have a lot of blood that originally passed through Celtic speakers would be silly. Take the Swiss... they have tons of Celtic-origin Y-DNA and relatively little (~10%) of haplogroup I, which is more typical of Germanic peoples (yours truly being among the Swiss-origin haplogroup I people)... altogether indicating that they are largely Germanicized Celts.
(Is "Germanicized" the right word?)
I totally agree with you. And the fact that highest frequencies of R1b in the Iberian peninsula occur in the least Indo European areas (Iberia, Basque country) just show how unrelated haplogroup and Languages can be.
To me, the real Celtic culture area ends in eastern France
To classify a country as culturally Celtic ONLY because it boasts a handful of native Celtic speakers is pretty near-sighted. Culturally, Celticity signifies much more than just language.
The Proto-European information is clear and well-accepted. Celtic influence, however, was very significant and endured for an extended period of time throughout Atlantic Europe. Celticity forms part of the region's essential culture and genetic substratum.
There are only a few countries today with any indigenous Celtic speakers. The percentages are not considerable anywhere (with Wales having the highest, I believe) and, in some cases (Cornwall and Isle of Man), the number is rather insignificant. To classify a country as culturally Celtic ONLY because it boasts a handful of native Celtic speakers is pretty near-sighted. Culturally, Celticity signifies much more than just language.
Well, let's assume that Iberian, Basque, Lusitanian and Tartessian were not Celtic languages, the Iberian peninsula is hardly 50% Celtic
Well, let's assume that Iberian, Basque, Lusitanian and Tartessian were not Celtic languages, the Iberian peninsula is hardly 50% Celtic
Actually I didn't say the S116* is the celtic subclade. What I said the S116 branch that is proto-Celtic, which also encompases the S116*, but the S116* and the S116 are NOT THE SAME. Anyways, the S116* is also high in East France, Ireland, Switzerland, etc. And now see this schemas :Genetically speaking, Iberia is far from sharing the bulk of its haplogroup with the main celtic cores. To a genetic point of view, Celtic and non Celtic population (Basque, Iberian, Lusitanian, Tartessian) don't differ at all
It is a complex construct and can mean different things to different people.How would you define Celticity ?
Lusitanian is generally considered as Para-Celtic. Culturally, the archaeological and historical evidence suggests that Lusitania was Celtic, sharing many elements with neighboring Gallaecia. The ancients even referred to Lusitanian territory as a home of the Celtici. No need to split hairs on this.
According to this map,. What I said the S116 branch that is proto-Celtic, which also encompases the S116*, but the S116* and the S116 are NOT THE SAME. Anyways, the S116* is also high in East France, Ireland, Switzerland, etc. And now see this schemas :
Sorry, I meant Celtica. Discussed in Wodtko (2010).Ah nope, I'm sorry, but you're definitely getting inaccurate here. The Celtici lived inside the borders of the Roman province of Lusitania, which was much larger than the area inhabited by the Lusitani tribe, or by related Lusitanian-speaking peoples (the Vettones), which generally lived in the Tejo area. The Celtici lived further to the south, and even further to the south (from the Algarve to the Guadiana) lived the Turdetani, which are thought to be the descendants of the Tartessians. On my map, I tried to mark that with the green isolated area which is marked as "Celtic".
Otherwise CambriaRed, I must severely disagree with your concept of "Celticity", and I prefer to take a look at linguistic perspective (the Celtic language family). But I have mentioned that before, and I do not like to argue here.
What ? The S116 is the most common branch of M269 in Western Europe, and the M167 in Iberia is only 3.5% of the population, not even in Catalonia is the majority : There the M167 is 20% while there is close to 80% of R1b. Plus the fact that it entered in different times doesn't change that the carriers of these subclades were related peopleAccording to this map,
the fact that the main R1b S116 in the Iberian Peninsula is entering Spain at the same time of M167 in Catalonia and BEFORE R1b S28 in Central Italy (Italic tribes) shows us that R1b S116 is Iberian, LUsitanian, Italic, Basque, Tartessian, Aquitanian and ultimately Celtic. When the Celtic cultural area spread later from Cnetral Europe, the bulk of Haplogroup in the Iberian Peninsula was mainly that of the bronze age
Will respond shortly.I am curious as to what you think of the Celtic League's criteria for describing a place as a "Celtic Nation." If I recall correctly, it requires something like (1) it must be a historically Celtic region with a unique Celtic language and (2) it must have some speakers of that language nowadays. Hence, Cornwall and Man make the cut, but not, say, Galicia or Cumbria.
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