I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

It seems the case after finding some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argarthe culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!:)not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?
Depends on the type of the relations. Basically I have said that Mycenean 'tombs' are more similar in concept with W/NW European megalithic 'tombs'.According to ancient Greek writers Greek element existed in the South in the regions which later became Phoenician (and among the Phoenicians later), for example in Tartessos (@Angela which is a possible entry point for J2 lineages but not the only one).In Eastern Spain we had a non-IE language (Iberian). I think there was contact between Greeks (likely Ionians) and Iberians of Murcia certainly during or before the 5th century BC (but maybe not much before).(One good question -maybe not much important or not related- is what haplogroups existed in North Western Africa at that time and earlier, because E-M81 expanded in most of Maghreb the last 2000 years)
 
One possible scenario is that the people who brought the 'steppe' admixture spoke a pre-proto-Iberian language and not Celtic.
 
So, what "steppe" group had a sea faring culture in 2600 BC? If, according to the Catalan professors the steppe element entered Spain from the southeast, and not from the north and over the Pyrenees as all other theories have proposed, that's how they arrived.

That's the question for the Catalan professors.

This is roughly the time of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker in Europe, but there's no evidence they took to the sea. Minoan Crete wouldn't have "steppe", and neither would the Phoenicians.

That leaves displaced Balkans groups with some steppe and Aegean peoples perhaps from the coast of Turkey who also had some steppe? I don't know. What was Cyprus like at that time, or Sardinia?

This culture didn't just grow up independently. It brought Bronze technology and a stratified culture to Spain, as well as the knowledge to build a sophisticated settlement and defensive walls. Interestingly, that architecture didn't make it past the confines of El Argar, apparently.

Now, if they were locals in contact with the eastern Mediterranean, they could have built this culture. You wouldn't need gene flow. The most recent example of GAC shows us that. However, they're saying these people had a steppe element. That narrows the possible scenarios.

Unless, perhaps the steppe element had filtered down to these people from the north and the culture part came from the east.

They need to contact the Reich Lab and turn over the skeletal material. Also, very little of it has been excavated.
 
La Bastida itself is a rather recent finding.
The invading group were warriors, but it must have been a relatively small group, as La Bastida was their only such settlement.
Some warrior group that had lost a battle somewhere and was on the run looking for a new place to stay.
Also IE groups could be able to travel along the Mediterranean shores.
The Usatovo 5.5 - 4.5 ka would have had quite an extensive trade network, part of the transport was probably done by rowing longboats.
4 ka is before the time of the larger Minoan vessels with sails. And till the bronze age collapse, 3.2 ka regular traffic by boat was confined to the eastern Mediterranean.

Somehow this whole story reminds me of the Moorish conquerors of Andalusia and Iberia who came all the way from Baghdad, where they had lost a battle against a competing dynasty.

If we were to rely just on archeology, where would we have traced the origins of the Moorish?
No, we need DNA.
 
I still don't understand the chronology of the El Argar culture very well, anyway Los Millares already was a proto urban settlement with walls back in 3025 bc according to C14 analysis, so way before any steppe admixture got to Spain, then it is likely to conclude that those proto urban features were developed independently, 3025 bc, that's even earlier than the oldest Aegean proto urban settlements like Poliochne.

Regarding your other question, about Sardinia and Cyprus during the time of the El Argar culture, Sardinia had developed a proto urban culture known as the Monteclaro culture (2700-2100 bc), they had some cists burials too like the El Argar people, the settlements had rectangular buildings and were encircled by massive stone walls, the most notable one being Monte Baranta (2500-2200 bc):

MonteBarantaEvento3.jpg



complesso-megalitico.jpg



2.JPG



While in Cyprus too rectangular houses start to be come widespread during the early bronze age, the Philia (2400-1600 bc) culture had interesting features and their idols display some similarities with the Aegean ones

urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20161117114859146-0178:9781139028387:76688fig8_4.png
 
Last edited:
La Bastida itself is a rather recent finding.
The invading group were warriors, but it must have been a relatively small group, as La Bastida was their only such settlement.
Some warrior group that had lost a battle somewhere and was on the run looking for a new place to stay.
Also IE groups could be able to travel along the Mediterranean shores.
The Usatovo 5.5 - 4.5 ka would have had quite an extensive trade network, part of the transport was probably done by rowing longboats.
4 ka is before the time of the larger Minoan vessels with sails. And till the bronze age collapse, 3.2 ka regular traffic by boat was confined to the eastern Mediterranean.

Somehow this whole story reminds me of the Moorish conquerors of Andalusia and Iberia who came all the way from Baghdad, where they had lost a battle against a competing dynasty.

If we were to rely just on archeology, where would we have traced the origins of the Moorish?
No, we need DNA.

The Argaric culture at least in Murcia, which is what I know, is a culture whose remains are everywhere, and there are many unexplored archaeological sites, a culture that has influenced the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, that is, not we are talking about minutiae, La Bastida is one more (impressive but one more).


Argaric culture has been known for a long time, as I say there are remains everywhere in Murcia at least, but I think it needs to be investigated more systematically.


What is new is that genetic tests are done on human remains, and someone says (university professors in an international study) that what we find there is the genetic mixture of the entire Iberian Peninsula, this is the new thing.


And if science says that all Iberians are Moors, well said, is it bad? The problem is when they tell you that you are a Moor without being only because of prejudice towards the Iberians.

North of Africa is 13 kilometers from the Iberian Peninsula, but of course science tells us that there is a great genetic difference, I would say of the most important in so few kilometers, I consider myself anti-racist and anti-prejudice and seeker of the truth of things first of all.


How are we not going to have a certain North African component if they are our neighbors? It is normal, nothing happens, now we are basically Europeans.
 
The arsenical bronze swords from the middle El Argar culture have often been compared to those of early bronze age Sardinia (1700-1650 bc)

El Argar swords:

f2a47172b9c1d12d1d504fddcadb7423.jpg


11-argar-e1-a.jpg


Sardinian Sant'Iroxi swords


Fig._18_Le_spade_Sant_Iroxi_in_rame_arsenicato.jpg


22344911_1572945212765563_6847956256867483648_n.jpg
 
You take out a dagger from the Middle Ages, you take off the handle and it also looks like it.
 
That's what the experts of the bronze age Western mediterranean have concluded: http://www.academia.edu/1138694/LE_...REIVAZIONE_DAI_PUGNALI_CAMPANIFORME._2012Also Also I don't think daggers can be 70 cms long.

I too was doubtful but if F.Lo Schiavo and Parronda, who are major experts in that field have concluded that, they probably have their reasons.

We know for certain that direct contacts between Andalusia and Sardinia did happen later in the final bronze age and early iron age, as testified both by a huge variety of bronze objects (tripodes, axes, swords) and by a considerable number of Nuragic pottery shards having been found in Andalusia and even reproduced locally there in some occasions, some of them were also found in pre-Phoenician contexts:

http://www.academia.edu/29053155/Ri...del_I_millennio_a.C._Vecchie_e_nuove_evidenze

http://www.raco.cat/index.php/CuadernosArqueologia/article/viewFile/276368/392932

So I wouldn't be surprised if some contacts happened earlier in the early and middle bronze age
 
@Pygmalion,
Cyprus and/or Sardinia seem a lot more likely as the source of the culture given the similarities in the material culture, the architecture, the burials, and the documented contacts from later on.

The Ozieri Culture in Sardinia already showed influence from Crete and Malta in 3200 BC. It would only increase.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozieri_culture

The professors may have confused a chunk of WHG plus a bit of CHG for "steppe" ancestry.

We won't know unless the samples are checked by people who know what they're doing.

A shame that all these Southern European cultures have not been more extensively excavated and studied. I'd love to know more about Los Millares and El Argar.

@Ros,
No, it wouldn't be bad if all Iberians were Moors, but that isn't the case. Has there been some gene flow? Yes, it seems there has, but these are two different populations, which have been subject to different gene flows from different areas. The North Africans, in particular, have been changed by a lot of gene flow from SSA which didn't affect Spain and Portugal anywhere to that degree. They don't have EHG, for another. Even their amount of WHG, which would have come from Spain, is less than is present in Iberia, from what I remember. So, as I said, two very different populations.

The same has happened everywhere in Europe. At borders there is always some amount of gene flow in both directions. It's, as you say, normal.
 
@Pygmalion,
Cyprus and/or Sardinia seem a lot more likely as the source of the culture given the similarities in the material culture, the architecture, the burials, and the documented contacts from later on.

or Cyprus, Sardinia and El Aragar have some common source
 
The Argaric culture at least in Murcia, which is what I know, is a culture whose remains are everywhere, and there are many unexplored archaeological sites, a culture that has influenced the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, that is, not we are talking about minutiae, La Bastida is one more (impressive but one more).


Argaric culture has been known for a long time, as I say there are remains everywhere in Murcia at least, but I think it needs to be investigated more systematically.

La Bastida is the oldest settlement, the rest came later.
It seems to me La Bastida was built and inhabited by the newcomers, while in the other fortifications an elite of newcomers lived to controll the surrounding local population, and their resources (fertile lands and trade routes).
 
Argar and Los Millares are not the same, two basic distinctive notes:


The Millares: Community life, collective burials.
El Argar: Strongly hierarchical life, individual burials.
 
I agree El Argar seem the result of a new elite (males?) relatively brutal or quick introgression in S-E Iberia. The loose cultural links with Hellad could be the due to the fact that Hellad received new inputs from the same culture who sent colonizers to some Western Europe places? (I already red this and take it for my account too). I some of the Central Europe cultures of the same time or just a bit after this kind of sepulture existed if I red well surely in synthetical cultures where IE intruders and Old Europe (or rather new people from Anatolia autosomally still close enough to Old Europe people) took part : by instance in Unetice: heterogenous modes of burying, but someones in Jars like in El Argar, and evident influence of Syria/Anatolia, what is not the sign in Unetice of a pop dominantly come from there!? It could explain the links and the imperfect aspect of these links?
 
Thanks for the links and pictures but I'm not archeologist; what ties with what do these swords or cutlasses show?
 
BTW the elite burials in El Argar were in cists under tumuli -
 
Archaeological site Arg?rico "La Almoloya", in Pliego (Murcia):


During the last archaeological campaign, which ended in September, dozens of tombs have been found, most of them provided with offerings. The burials are located in the basement of the same dwellings, as the researchers Emeterio Cuadrado and Juan de la Cierva already proved in the forties. A tomb stands next to the main head of the audience room, inside which the remains of a man and a woman in a flexed position have been found, accompanied by thirty rich offerings made of noble metals and semiprecious stones. One of the most relevant pieces is a silver diadem that encircles the skull of the woman, especially considering that the last ones were discovered more than 130 years ago in El Argar, and none of them is preserved today in Spain. Four ear dilators have also been found, two of solid gold and two of silver, in addition to rings, earrings, bracelets and silver nails that held the handle of a beautiful copper dagger. Also noteworthy is a ceramic cup covered by thin sheets of silver and a metal punch with a copper tip and a handle forged entirely in silver.
 

This thread has been viewed 51564 times.

Back
Top