Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

eupator said:
Firstly, I am not endorsing poster blevin's opinion on HGs, I only focus on the points I make, so please stop with the strawmen and trying to put words in my mouth. You seem to somehow think you have some sort of moral high ground that allows you to use ad homs ad libitum against others.

Secondly, you still haven't provided any proof to the contrary, I am still waiting to see how these Byzantine chroniclers you and some other posters hold in low regard were wrong.

Instead, you just chose to write an incredibly long and emotional piece on what essentially constitutes your personal feelings on the matter, which is duly noted I guess.

And, since you are a foreigner to these lands, ethnographers in Greece get attacked all the time when they inevitable break the nationalists' narrative, we are used to such political violence, look no further than Karakasidou's work in Macedonia.
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First, I do not have to provide any proof that "the Byzantine chroniclers were wrong", since what I've argued for is that 1) you can't draw huge population replacements from what you've posted and 2) it is a bad idea to uncritically hold every detail they have reported as true, since ancient chronicler were rather imprecise and reported their information in rather impressionistic terms. The second point is critically what they first teach you in history classes.

Second, the only genuine ad hominem I used is the accusation that non-European Greeks seem to want European Greeks to have as much low as possible continuity with ancient Greeks, which is a legitimate ad hominem since for some reasons you and these others are dismissing the existing consensus with arguments that are extremely shaky,to say the least, and you are claiming that your "evidence" is better than what the official consensus is; the other "ad hominems" I think you're referring to are the "dumb" or similar adjectives I use, which aren't ad hominem since they refer to statements, not people. Since I notice a quite patent lack of understanding of Logics, let me be clear on one thing: if you read carefully what I wrote, I never implied that Anatolian and Cyprus Greeks aren't Greek, since they descend from people that identified as Greek for at least a millenium and half, but it remains true that genetically they are largely descendents of people that were not ancient Greeks, so it is fishy when some non-European Greeks that are interested in archaeogenetics claim contrary to every evidence that also European Greeks largely do not descend from ancient Greeks. To me it seems evident that the only thing that motivates these quite bizzarre claims is that such non-European Greeks think that the reality of their genetics diminish their "Greekness", so they want European Greeks as well to have as little as possible continuity with ancient Greeks. It's true that some European Greeks hold this view that Anatolian and Cypriot Greeks "aren't real Greeks", but an idiotic statement doesn't make another idiotic statement true or valid.
 
Constantine said:
Yes, the demographic stuff I've been seeing is scary (and sad). But Pontics are probably not different enough and numerous enough to matter in these calculations of "ancient Greekness" of modern Greeks. People seem to like painting them as these unsavory, Greek-imposter ingredients in the stew.

In general, I think they are more ancient than people give them credit for and not these "Hellenized Georgians" as some like to say.
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I'm not arguing that they are not Greek or anything like that but genetically Pontic Greeks are as close to Mycenaean as are Canaanites from 1800bc. Obviously they are different enough. That's like saying "Pure Canaanites are probably not different enough to matter in these calculations of "ancient Greekness".
QCbC381.png
 
Er Monnezza said:
But when you say "Ancient Greeks," who exactly are you referring to? The Mycenaeans?

Greeks and Balkanians are not simply LBA/IA locals + Medieval Slavs. The picture is more complicated than that.

Taking the Bulgarians as an example, they have virtually the same amount of CHG and Iran_N as their Iron Age counterparts (assuming the BGR_IA singleton is a good proxy, which it may not be) while having at the same time a heavy recent contribution from the north. This means that indeed there has been a recent contribution from the east over the past 2,500 years.

All the samples used in the model below pre-date 7000 BC.

SampleTURUKRIRNGEO
Bulgarian55,225,89,69,4
BGR_IA75,67,48,88,2
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The paper on the Danubian limes modelled modern Greeks (plus Cretans) as Empuries+Slavic; I agree that some higher CHG is required, and some contributions from either western Anatolians (modelled in said paper as half Anatolia_BA and half Balkan_IA) and part of eastern Balkans (whose higher CHG might go back to direct catacomb admixture or later Scythian or both) is likely, but what I claim is that the bulk of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from ancient Greeks(contrasted with the other claim that Greeks descend largely from anyone else but local Greeks), which seems likely also given the leaked BIOMUSE samples, and is the conclusion drawn since Lazaridis 2017.
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
The paper on the Danubian limes modelled modern Greeks (plus Cretans) as Empuries+Slavic; I agree that some higher CHG is required, and some contributions from either western Anatolians (modelled in said paper as half Anatolia_BA and half Balkan_IA) and part of eastern Balkans (whose higher CHG might go back to direct catacomb admixture or later Scythian or both) is likely, but what I claim is that the bulk of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from ancient Greeks(contrasted with the other claim that Greeks descend largely from anyone else but local Greeks), which seems likely also given the leaked BIOMUSE samples, and is the conclusion drawn since Lazaridis 2017.
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Also Cypriots and Dodecanese require a Levantine proxy. Modern Greeks have around 20-40% ancient Greek ancestry depending on the region.

Biomuse models are awful. I repeated the same faulty models on qpAdm by biomuse on Mycenaeans who actually have 11% Steppe. The biomuse models inflated Mycenaean's steppe to 27%. Biomuse used models meant for Germanic/Slavic people and inflated the Iron age Greek's steppe. They didn't even use CHG and Iran N proxies which cause Steppe to be inflated.

Aren't Biomuse the one's that made the paper that claimed modern Greeks are 90% Bronze Age Thessaly (obviously not true) and completely ignored Slavic admix?
 
blevins13 said:
You still do not get it, the same y-dna line that I have, now in Morea identify themself as Greeks, part of the Greek culture, but their ancestors identified as Albanians 1000 years ago. In Y-full you can identify when they slip.
So yes it “depends” on Y-DNA so you can trace your line, and the “when” will tell you the culture, group of people, nationality, ethnicity your ancestor was part of.

Not sure what’s not clear here.


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I am keeping responding to such ramblings because I have the impression that to leave such idiocy unanswered gives the impression that it is somehow justified: how do you know for certain that your clade of r1b is ONLY Albanian? In order to draw such a conclusion, you must know for certain that it was not existent in Morea before Albanians settled in; it is much more plausible that the R1b clades in both Greece and Albania are shared since ancient times.
 
Idontknowwhatimdoing said:
Deep Mani on G25 scores 37% ancient Greek and 31% Balkan + Slavic. Greek Cypriots on qpAdm score 35% ancient Greek with such models and 31% on G25. So if you adjust it based on that G25 error then on qpAdm Deep Mani would score around 43% ancient Greek. They seem to have less Balkan-Slavic ancestry than the rest of the mainland Greeks. The rest of Peloponnese seems similar to other mainland Greeks but with a bit less Balkan and Slavic.
Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 0.6221% / 0.00622115
37.01.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
31.24.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
17.02.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
14.83.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.7652% / 0.00765245
52.04.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
29.61.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
12.02.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
6.43.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
Target: Greek_North_Tsakonia
Distance: 0.7745% / 0.00774540
44.24.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
26.01.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
22.03.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
7.82.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 0.7222% / 0.00722199
59.44.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
21.01.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
19.63.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
Target: Greek_Achaea
Distance: 0.6698% / 0.00669781
53.64.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
29.81.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
10.22.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
6.43.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.1229% / 0.01122937
54.64.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
34.61.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
10.83.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
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Using numerous sources you get an overfitted model.
Using a Dodecanese source Peloponessians sorce 25 to 30% Polish like ancestry or 45%-50% Serbian like.
Using multiply sources the North Slavic was nearly 35% which is a bit high if the Slavs that came to Greece were pure.
 
Double post
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
I am keeping responding to such ramblings because I have the impression that to leave such idiocy unanswered gives the impression that it is somehow justified: how do you know for certain that your clade of r1b is ONLY Albanian? In order to draw such a conclusion, you must know for certain that it was not existent in Morea before Albanians settled in; it is much more plausible that the R1b clades in both Greece and Albania are shared since ancient times.
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I am not referring to all R1b, I am referring to this particular line Paternal Y-DNA: R1b- Z2705, you can look it up in y-full. It expanded in the last 1500 years somewhere in the western Balkans and some ended up in Morea. The question is not why is Albanian but when was Albanian and when become Greek.
The Albanian core male lines are very distinct because they come from a very small group of people, very easy to trace.

Do you understand now?!!!!
Why Idiocy Leo?!!! Isn’t this the way to track your ancestors?

Show as a better way Leo do not leave us in the Dark?

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ihype02 said:
Using numerous sources you get an overfitted model.
Using a Dodecanese source Peloponessians sorce 25 to 30% Polish like ancestry or 45%-50% Serbian like.
Using multiply sources the North Slavic was nearly 35% which is a bit high if the Slavs that came to Greece were pure.
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Bruh that is why i used Serbian instead of slavic and balkan proxies separately. Modern Greeks have both Paleo Balkan and Slavic admix so it works fine.
 
What is this "Paleo-Balkan" nonsense? The only European hunter-gatherers who lived in the Balkans were up around the Gorge because of the good fishing there. There are numerous published papers which we have discussed here which document that. They intermarried with the incoming Anatolian farmers, although the percentage of HG was small. We have ancient Dna of the Neolithic in the Balkans which is documented, once again, in papers we discussed here. We also have Chalcolithic ancient dna. Then we have the arrival of steppe people who had already absorbed European farmer ancestry by the time they arrived. Again, read the darn papers. They're all here.

Finally, we have the latest big paper on the Balkans which give us samples which can be used. Yes, we don't yet have a good source for the Slavic speakers who entered the Balkans, but the first arrivals must have been pretty close to Poles or maybe Czechs. Using Serbs is not, imo, a very good idea.
 
Angela said:
What is this "Paleo-Balkan" nonsense? The only European hunter-gatherers who lived in the Balkans were up around the Gorge because of the good fishing there. There are numerous published papers which we have discussed here which document that. They intermarried with the incoming Anatolian farmers, although the percentage of HG was small. We have ancient Dna of the Neolithic in the Balkans which is documented, once again, in papers we discussed here. We also have Chalcolithic ancient dna. Then we have the arrival of steppe people who had already absorbed European farmer ancestry by the time they arrived. Again, read the darn papers. They're all here.
Finally, we have the latest big paper on the Balkans which give us samples which can be used. Yes, we don't yet have a good source for the Slavic speakers who entered the Balkans, but the first arrivals must have been pretty close to Poles or maybe Czechs. Using Serbs is not, imo, a very good idea.
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Just by the fact that you thought Paleo Balkan meant European HG means you have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you thought its nonsense since you didn't even know what it is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages

I obviously meant Iron Age Balkan populations and not European Hunter Garherers.

I am not using Serbs as a Slavic or Balkan proxy. I literally said I'm using them as a proxy for both since they have ancestry from BOTH and modern Greeks also have ancestry from BOTH Paleo-Balkan and Slavic.

I cannot use separate Paleo Balkan and Slavic proxies together when modeling ancient Greek ancestry on qpAdm and G25 i said that 100 times. The calculator and qpAdm mess up. On qpAdm it causes high std errors and on G25 overfits so only a proxy mixed between Paleo-Balkan and Slavic works and Serbian is a great option.
 
Idontknowwhatimdoing said:
Just by the fact that you thought Paleo Balkan meant European HG means you have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you thought its nonsense since you didn't even know what it is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages
I obviously meant Iron Age Balkan populations and not European Hunter Garherers.
I am not using Serbs as a Slavic or Balkan proxy. I literally said I'm using them as a proxy for both since they have ancestry from BOTH and modern Greeks also have ancestry from BOTH Paleo-Balkan and Slavic.
I cannot use separate Paleo Balkan and Slavic proxies together when modeling ancient Greek ancestry on qpAdm and G25 i said that 100 times. The calculator and qpAdm mess up. On qpAdm it causes high std errors and on G25 overfits so only a proxy mixed between Paleo-Balkan and Slavic works and Serbian is a great option.
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Wait a minute you're using Bulgarian EBA which has EEF, Steppe, and EHG as Paleobalkan correct? And your combining Bulgaria EBA with modern Serbian admixture to come up with the Paleobalkan/Slavic?
 
There are a number of Peloponnesian males with J2a and G haplogroups. To say they have no ancient Greek descent means that none of their ancestors had it either. They would have all had to come from a non-Greek place—with Greek including parts of the Balkans, Italy and Anatolia, where ancient Greeks lived.
 
Idontknowwhatimdoing said:
Just by the fact that you thought Paleo Balkan meant European HG means you have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you thought its nonsense since you didn't even know what it is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages
I obviously meant Iron Age Balkan populations and not European Hunter Garherers.
I am not using Serbs as a Slavic or Balkan proxy. I literally said I'm using them as a proxy for both since they have ancestry from BOTH and modern Greeks also have ancestry from BOTH Paleo-Balkan and Slavic.
I cannot use separate Paleo Balkan and Slavic proxies together when modeling ancient Greek ancestry on qpAdm and G25 i said that 100 times. The calculator and qpAdm mess up. On qpAdm it causes high std errors and on G25 overfits so only a proxy mixed between Paleo-Balkan and Slavic works and Serbian is a great option.
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Buddy, change your tone and how you talk to moderators. For now it's an infraction; next time you'll be out of here so fast your damn head will be spinning. Got it?

If you're going to make up a term, EXPLAIN it without insulting the other poster. Also, look up the meaning of Paleo.

What are you trying to prove? How much "Slavic ancestry" arrived in the Balkans to mix with the Iron Age inhabitants? Well, if that's what you're trying to do, I have no idea why you think using modern Serbs is a good option. I personally think mixing ancient with modern samples in a calculator is always a bad idea, but hey, you do you. The rest of us can make our own judgments as to whether it reflects reality.
 
Ralphie Boy said:
There are a number of Peloponnesian males with J2a and G haplogroups. To say they have no ancient Greek descent means that none of their ancestors had it either. They would have all had to come from a non-Greek place—with Greek including parts of the Balkans, Italy and Anatolia, where ancient Greeks lived.
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Hear hear! I'm a Peloponnesian Greek with G haplogroup. Not many of us around!
 
Angela said:
Buddy, change your tone and how you talk to moderators. For now it's an infraction; next time you'll be out of here so fast your damn head will be spinning. Got it?
If you're going to make up a term, EXPLAIN it without insulting the other poster. Also, look up the meaning of Paleo.
What are you trying to prove? How much "Slavic ancestry" arrived in the Balkans to mix with the Iron Age inhabitants? Well, if that's what you're trying to do, I have no idea why you think using modern Serbs is a good option. I personally think mixing ancient with modern samples in a calculator is always a bad idea, but hey, you do you. The rest of us can make our own judgments as to whether it reflects reality.
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I was trying to isolate mainly their ancient Greek admix. You cannot use both ancient Slavic and Balkan samples together to model ancient Greek ancestry. It simply doesnt work. I explained why many times why.

When you use Iron age balkan and and Medieval slavic or modern slavic samples to model Greeks sometimes it gives them just balkan instead of ancient Greek and other times it inflates the Slavic and gives no Balkan etc. It causes weird overfits. Even on qpAdm it causes high std errors so i need to use a proxy mixed between the 2.
Modern samples are not a problem if they have the appropriate admixture.

If i just use ancient samples on qpAdm to model ancient Greek ancestry then modern Greeks score 10% Mycenean since they require a proxy with higher CHG and Iran N than Anatolia BA. So all they get is Slavic + Anatolia BA + very little Mycenean. So if you keep insisting not to use modern samples that is what happens.

I have no choice but to use Armenians as a general West Asian Anatolia/Caucasus proxy because they are kinda mixed with Anatolia/Caucasus/Mesolotamia and Serbian for Iron age Balkan and Medieval Slavic.
 
matadworf said:
Hear hear! I'm a Peloponnesian Greek with G haplogroup. Not many of us around!
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Do you know your precise G haplogroup? My husband is also G.
 
matadworf said:
Hear hear! I'm a Peloponnesian Greek with G haplogroup. Not many of us around!
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Trying to access the Y DNA of the Reich study but having a bit of difficulty now. Someone indicated somewhere that J2a-L70 from a Mycenaean site is in this study. One of my great-grandfathers was this haplogroup. Of course my line might not have anything to do with Mycenaeans but it’s nice to see another ancient sample pop up in the Balkans. By the way, the living person with this haplogroup in the family has mtDNA X2, which was also found in a Mycenaean site, in the first Mycenaean paper. Another coincidence perhaps, but still nice to see.
 
Greek samples from the new Southern Arc paper

SampleDateAnalysis_LabelLocalityCountryLat.Long.CoverageY-DNAmtDNA
I14916-1818GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BACrete, Zakros, KaraviadainaGreece35,08583326,24777813,17%n/a (female)H
I6420-1547GRC_Mycenaean_Lokris_BAFthiotis, Lokris, ProskynasGreece38,60923,1671,55%J..
I15582-1516GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BAAttica, Kolikrepi-SpataGreece37,96091923,93980125,55%n/a (female)T2c1+146
I13519-1480GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,6945862,12%F..
I14872-1475GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BAAttica, Kolikrepi-SpataGreece37,96091923,9398012,32%n/a (female)HV
I15571-1467GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BAAttica, Kolikrepi-SpataGreece37,96091923,93980143,29%n/a (female)HV0a
I16709-1419GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BAAttica, Kolikrepi-SpataGreece37,96091923,93980115,29%J-Y14434H5
I13516-1385GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,6945866,81%n/a (female)J1c1
I13510-1328GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,6945867,67%G-P287H7
I13517-1328GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,69458625,65%G-Z6494..
I19366-1328GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,69458650,11%n/a (female)J1c+16261
I13578-1312GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BAKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,57512,52%n/a (female)K1a2
I13428-1293GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BAKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,5756,22%G-L30H2
I13579-1266GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BAKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,57518,01%J-Y14434W1
I13577-1250GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BAKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,57524,67%G-Z7016T2c1d1
I13536-1250GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lcKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,5750,46%n/a (female)..
I13531-1250GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BAKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,5752,23%n/a (female)U3b
I13433-1250GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BAKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,5752,61%n/a (female)U3b1
I13580-1219GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BAKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,5752,81%G-P287K2b
I13514-1215GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,69458676,28%n/a (female)K1c1
I13513-1215GRC_BA_Mycenaean_lcPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,6945860,47%n/a (sex unknown)..
I13532-1193GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BAKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,5751,36%n/a (female)U3b1b
I13518-1135GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,69458681,11%R-PF7563N1a1a1a3
I13506-1135GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518Pylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,69458620,12%R-M269..
I19364-1135GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,69458612,16%R-M269X
I19368-1010GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIAPylos, Palace of NestorGreece37,02679721,69458610,73%n/a (female)U8b1a
I17959-650GRC_Kastrouli_AncKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,5751,35%JJ1c
I17960-650GRC_Anc_lcKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,5750,63%..J1
I17962-644GRC_Kastrouli_AncKastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)Greece38,39908322,57541,33%T-S27463U8b1b
I7833340GRC_Marathon_RomVranas MarathonGreece38,12220723,94639280,92%T-CTS3767H
 
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