Mesolithic source of Pale pigmentation in modern Europe?

So, there is a good chance EHG is found as source of Baltic blondism. Makes perfect sense.

Is there a population list by EHG admixture %? Then I could find somewhere on net say blond hair % list and see if there is modern correlation between two.

The Mesolithic Karelian probably had dark hair and the Mesolithic man from Samara probably had blonde hair. A Mesolithic woman from Motala, Sweden was a carrier of the same blonde variant(but was just a carrier), as were two individuals from Neolithic Hungary.

Blonde hair very likely existed in EEF, SHG, EHG, and maybe even WHG. It's hard to trace it's popularity in modern pops to one ancient source.
 
hmm

is there anybody that believes or wonders about or if red hair came from neantherdal?

could neanderdalis to was a red haired?
 
The Mesolithic Karelian probably had dark hair and the Mesolithic man from Samara probably had blonde hair. A Mesolithic woman from Motala, Sweden was a carrier of the same blonde variant(but was just a carrier), as were two individuals from Neolithic Hungary.

Blonde hair very likely existed in EEF, SHG, EHG, and maybe even WHG. It's hard to trace it's popularity in modern pops to one ancient source.
That's because it took all of their lighter mutations to produce today's blondest European.
 
That's because it took all of their lighter mutations to produce today's blondest European.

That's possible I guess. Hirisplex may be totally irrelevant when looking at people from certain eras.
 
I was quite confident I would find nice table with average blond hair percents in Euro countries on the net :)
I found only few maps instead, and gonna use this one:
europe-hair0223--light-h.jpg

Ok, guys sample was small, but fixed stuff for me nicely. Please find the graphs below from my Excel:
w7zzon.png
 
As you see "EHG vs Light Hairs" correlation is positive and quite high R-squared value - .8488. Line fits data rather nicely.
As you see "WHG vs Light Hairs" correlation is rather poor (R - 0.4588). Data seem scattered. And I wonder if any correlation there is not caused by correlation between WHG/EHG actually.
As you see using "SUM HG vs Light Hairs" correlation is in between. Still not as close and nice as EHG one, but improved from WHG.

This is by no means scientific or representative. Just quick excel playing :)
 
There is a strong correlation between UV radiation and pigmentation. Mesolitich hunther were generally swarthier than Neolitich farmers. Paleolitich hunthers like Mal'ta, Kostenki... were the swarthiest of the bunch.
 
New info apparently says, that at least one Meso hunter guy East of Baltic Sea was pretty much like Finns&Balts today.
He was nicknamed EHG and according to my quick correlation if you have more of his genes, you have higher chance to be blond.
I am pretty sure it would give same results for blue eyes, etc.
 
Here's a spreadsheet of all the red hair variants Geneticker tested (most of)the Haak genomes for and the indviduals who were carriers. I also put the percentage of carriers in the HGDP pops and ave a link to a 23andme article giving red hair varient percentages. R151C(rs1805007) is the most popular red hair variant in modern and ancient pops. R160W(rs1805008) is about equally popular in modern pops, but we only have one ancient example so far. The other red hair variants are very unpopular in modern and ancient pops.

~30-45% of north Euros(FIN, CEU, GBR) and ~10-15% of south Euros(TSI, IBS) are carriers of red hair via R151C(rs1805007) and R160W(rs1805008). R151C(rs1805007) was found in Upper Palaeolithic Russia, Mesolithic Sweden, Samara Yamna, German Bell Beaker, and German Urnfield. R160W(rs1805008) has only been found in Mesolithic Sweden.


Two African pops, all Latin American(Largely Spanish) pops, and one east Asian pop had red hair carriers. I bet the two African pops and maybe the east Asian pop have some European ancestry. All the south Asian pops had red hair carriers. I tend to think they don't get it from European ancestry but instead distant common ancestry with Europeans.


Because of the existence of red hair variants in Mesolithic Sweden and that there's documented existence of red hair in the middle east and central Asia, I think red hair has been around since the Upper Palaeolithic. The few statistics I've seen say it's most popular in north Europe(inclu. Northeast), and IMO in Europe it's Mesolithic(WHG?, SHG, EHG) descended.

Lumping Tuscans and Iberians in the same bunch is completely wrong, since the Tuscans are much lighter at least by looking at those data.

One would espect North Italians to be much lighter and similar to North Europeans.
 
Lumping Tuscans and Iberians in the same bunch is completely wrong, since the Tuscans are much lighter at least by looking at those data.

One would espect North Italians to be much lighter and similar to North Europeans.

Who cares? Who cares where the mutation arose and who has more of it other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity? As soon as pigmentation is discussed, this sort of thing starts popping up. My father's whole family is blonde or red-haired and freckled and light eyed and I don't ever remember it being discussed as anything particularly valuable. It's just how they looked! If anything, they bemoaned not being able to tan and talked about bleaching creams for the freckles!

I don't get it and I never will. No disrespect to them at all, but who cares who looks more North European? Why would Italians, in particular, care about looking 'more' North European? As far as I'm concerned, this is a foreign ideology to Italy...a foreign ideology whose adoption led to one of the worst periods of Italian history.

Perhaps we should stick to the genetics and leave these value judgments and competitions over meaningless things out of it.

Ed. In the interest of full disclosure, my aunts did indeed bemoan all the freckles, and weren't particularly keen on having photosensitive skin, but they did love having that wavy copper red hair in their youth. It was just such a vibrant and unusual color. It also marked them as belonging to their particular family, which became a part of their identity, I think. As those were still superstitious times, they also told me that boys were waved off them as it was held to indicate a bad temper and strong will. Not that they cared...they were a strong and fearsome group of women, and rather proud of it. :)
 
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I was quite confident I would find nice table with average blond hair percents in Euro countries on the net :)
I found only few maps instead, and gonna use this one:
View attachment 7138

Ok, guys sample was small, but fixed stuff for me nicely. Please find the graphs below from my Excel:
w7zzon.png

Maybe an explanation is that WHG lived in more southern latitudes than EHG due to glaciation during LGM. Although this should affect light skin more than blonde hair. But maybe there is an indirect link between both traits.
LGM-Mangerud-2003.jpg
 
Who cares? Who cares where the mutation arose and who has more of it other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity? As soon as pigmentation is discussed, this sort of thing starts popping up. My father's whole family is blonde or red-haired and freckled and light eyed and I don't ever remember it being discussed as anything particularly valuable. It's just how they looked! If anything, they bemoaned not being able to tan and talked about bleaching creams for the freckles!

I don't get it and I never will. No disrespect to them at all, but who cares who looks more North European? Why would Italians, in particular, care about looking 'more' North European? As far as I'm concerned, this is a foreign ideology to Italy...a foreign ideology whose adoption led to one of the worst periods of Italian history.

Perhaps we should stick to the genetics and leave these value judgments and competitions over meaningless things out of it.

I was just correcting the user Fire Haired 14. He was the one who manipulated genetic data to fit in his agenda.
 
Could be, only future research can tell if they were mixed. Some may have been brown skinned and some may have been light skinned, even within the same family. I see that as a possibility.

I was just correcting the user Fire Haired 14. He was the one who manipulated genetic data to fit in his agenda.

I think Fire-Haired has been doing a rather professional job of presenting the data and drawing rather cautious and sound conclusions from it.
 
Who cares? Who cares where the mutation arose and who has more of it other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity? As soon as pigmentation is discussed, this sort of thing starts popping up. My father's whole family is blonde or red-haired and freckled and light eyed and I don't ever remember it being discussed as anything particularly valuable. It's just how they looked! If anything, they bemoaned not being able to tan and talked about bleaching creams for the freckles!

I don't get it and I never will. No disrespect to them at all, but who cares who looks more North European? Why would Italians, in particular, care about looking 'more' North European? As far as I'm concerned, this is a foreign ideology to Italy...a foreign ideology whose adoption led to one of the worst periods of Italian history.

Perhaps we should stick to the genetics and leave these value judgments and competitions over meaningless things out of it.

Ed. In the interest of full disclosure, my aunts did indeed bemoan all the freckles, and weren't particularly keen on having photosensitive skin, but they did love having that wavy copper red hair in their youth. It was just such a vibrant and unusual color. It also marked them as belonging to their particular family, which became a part of their identity, I think. As those were still superstitious times, they also told me that boys were waved off them as it was held to indicate a bad temper and strong will. Not that they cared...they were a strong and fearsome group of women, and rather proud of it. :)

you can also continue with who cares about blonde hair or red hair, black hair or grey hair ................the only thing to study here is the green and hazel eyes group, since green eyes represent ONLY 2% of the worlds population you have a chance to pinpoint its origin FAR BETTER than any other group that Genetiker presented.
Then throw in the german areas plus ALL the LBK_EN ( which are german areas as well ) and you can get the BB group. The group that created BB
 
Lumping Tuscans and Iberians in the same bunch is completely wrong, since the Tuscans are much lighter at least by looking at those data.

One would espect North Italians to be much lighter and similar to North Europeans.

Actually it is wrong because "Iberia" is two separate countries indiscriminately lumped together as one but Tuscany is only a region isolated from the rest of the whole country it belongs to. And "those data" are "predictions" based on frequencies of selected single SNPs not on actual physical observation.
 
There is a strong correlation between UV radiation and pigmentation.

Unfortunately, it is not that clear-cut. Anthropological surveys of pigmentation show that sometimes this correlation does not happen and a population from an area with a higher UV radiation level can actually display lighter pigmentation than one in an area with a lower UV radiation level.
 
I was quite confident I would find nice table with average blond hair percents in Euro countries on the net :)
I found only few maps instead, and gonna use this one:
View attachment 7138

Ok, guys sample was small, but fixed stuff for me nicely. Please find the graphs below from my Excel:
w7zzon.png

The "map" seems to be made by some amateur arbitrarily assigning values at his whim and fancy, and not based on actual pigmentation data for the countries involved. For example, he puts northwestern Spain as the blondest area of that country, yet actual anthropological surveys show that it is northeastern (Pyrenaic areas) Spain that has the highest frequencies of blondism.

Where did the data for the graph below come from?
 
EHG data from Angela's post above.
If you have better % for nations on list on light hair % or light eyes, Please share. Recalculation is easy.
 
The frequency charts from the work of anthropologists fifty to one hundred years ago, particularly when they were all using different scales and definitions, are of limited usefulness. Nor do I care about the results of one skin reflectance test. The only measures currently available to us for ancient genomes which have a prayer of being objectively verifiable are properly done allele calls for known depigmentation mutations and the resulting predictions based on the latest Hirisplex algorithm. Everything else is too subjective.
 
Here's a link to Geneticker's post with the phenotype SNPs.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

Here's a link to many ancient individuals Hirisplex predictions.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...2XxPalVTa91VjyIDQPp2TWFjc/edit#gid=1862023606

Fire-Haired,
I don't see Samara HG on the Hair and Eye Color prediction chart. Am I missing it? I also see only one Yamnaya sample. Nor do I see predictions for skin color for any of the samples. Are there any plans to do that if it hasn't been done? If it has been done, could you link to the results?

Also, does the online program you ran provide you with probability ranges or tell you when there aren't enough snps for accuracy? For the SHG samples, for example, it says many missing snps. When I've seen runs on modern samples that are low quality the program usually says it can't predict the phenotype, or gives very low probabilities.

Thanks in advance.
 

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