David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

I would say that this is not the only possible explanation. I am only reasoning. If they arrived with Steppe ancestry in their genome in the Bronze Age, generation after generation in the Iron Age, after mixing for centuries with the local population without Steppe, might Steppe ancestry signal have simply disappeared from their genome?

When is it estimated that they may have arrived in the Bronze Age?

I also ask Anfänger.

That's the same impression I have Pax Augusta. I think David Reich gave us a hint in the Abstract:
A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself.

If I understand Reich correctly, there might be more samples in the upcoming paper, some from Bronze Age Armenia and northwest Iran. I think an early migration out of the steppe into the Southern Caucasus and thereafter the dilution of the autosomal steppe signal over a long period of time to practically 0%, is the most likely scenario and origin for the Hasanlu R1b samples mentioned by Moja.
 
If the gene flow was the other way, CHG going to Iran_N, you would have EHG/ANE in Iran_N. So I think Iran_N being the donor is the right modeling.

Maybe I don't understand anything?]

It doesn't concern only the admixture you posted but a lot (too much for me) of other surveys about ancient pop's.
Age of ancient pop's choosen as references is important, the homogeneity of these ages too, and with time running, the tide of peopling can change more than a time of direction, IMO.
But this chart cannot say too much to us.
I loose my Latin and even my Celtic when I see charts showing more than 33% of Malta in Villabruna an 45% of Caucasus: sure it's populations-like sharing but I prefer the ANE naming... It can wring the understanding of someones, and the antiquity of those pop's and components doesn't help us to figure out the directions of flows in very later times. I was not tackling other reasonings, only the value of these admixture charts as useful tools, IMO. Every "pure" component can be broken down into more than other components, and according to works and criteria, the pure ones become the composed ones and the composed ones become the pure ones! But even taking this chart as reliable, it seems to me I see HG Caucasus of the 13000/10000 (# HG Caucasus of 23000) had already a strong 'Iran-neol' component, so why to decide this component came to Steppes thanks to later Iranian people and not with previous Caucasus people having it already? These critics don't mean I 'm for or against the southern hypothesis for IE... I'm still puzzled helas.
What a mess. Pop's can be dated, not their components. Plus sometime a whole pop is considered as a component!
BTW I never thought Iran N. had EHG. Late Iran???
I'm steel interested as a whole by what you post here, no problem.
 
I don't know it is from these articles or not, he says about 2,000 BC there was a major migration from Shahr-e Sukhteh area in the east of Iran to Southern Central Asia.
 
Whatever the number and size of new anDNA raw data, it will not exclude a logical and honnest analysis of them. The whole question is there and even logic will not be God's word.
 
I would say that this is not the only possible explanation. I am only reasoning. If they arrived with Steppe ancestry in their genome in the Bronze Age, generation after generation in the Iron Age, after mixing for centuries with the local population without Steppe, might Steppe ancestry signal have simply disappeared from their genome?

When is it estimated that they may have arrived in the Bronze Age?

I also ask Anfänger.

Reich said that the steppe's ancestry was reduced to a third of what it was but that it never disappeared in the region (modern Armenians and Kurds still have it, although it is few). And it was also Reich who said that the Yamanya arrived in the region in the Bronze Age.

Quote from "Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"": "A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia".

https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lecture
 
The expansion of the Yamnaya in northern Iran took place in the Bronze Age. These samples are from the Iron Age and their haplogroup is R1b, but they have no steppe ancestry (so they cannot be descendants of the Yamanya). So there's only one explanation: they were the last survivors of a pre-Yamnaya population, which was the origin of the Yamanya themselves (through paternal lineage). So the Yamnaya ancestry was not EHG men and CHG/Iran_N women, but the opposite: CHG/Iran_N men and EHG women (at least that's what I understood).

Only problem with that is that there are such Iron Age samples which "do" show steppe ancestry.

Also, as Pax pointed out, an autosomal component can wash out of the genes; look at the R1b in the Cameroons.
 
That's the same impression I have Pax Augusta. I think David Reich gave us a hint in the Abstract:

If I understand Reich correctly, there might be more samples in the upcoming paper, some from Bronze Age Armenia and northwest Iran. I think an early migration out of the steppe into the Southern Caucasus and thereafter the dilution of the autosomal steppe signal over a long period of time to practically 0%, is the most likely scenario and origin for the Hasanlu R1b samples mentioned by Moja.


I recall the ancient Philistines DNA paper where they found a strong European genetic input among some Philistine samples. 200 years later, this European signal almost completely disappeared. The authors suggest that after arriving in the Levant, the people who had this European signature intermarried with a local population, which led to the genetic signature getting diluted in the Levantine population, to a point where it wasn't detectable anymore. According to the scholars, the Philistine influence was a drop of migration that had a very short-term genetic effect, but a long term cultural effect. A similar scenario like in the Philistines case could've been unfolding in Iran with the Steppe migration.
 
Only problem with that is that there are such Iron Age samples which "do" show steppe ancestry.

Also, as Pax pointed out, an autosomal component can wash out of the genes; look at the R1b in the Cameroons.

It was never said that there was no steppe ancestry in the region in the Iron Age, only that there were 16 samples that did not have such ancestry, Angela. And between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age (a short period of time) it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for this ancestry to be diluted to zero.
The Cameroons example is different: because the R1b haplogroup arrived there in the Neolithic period (or even earlier), so there was enough time (from that time until today) for non-African ancestry to dilute to zero.
 
I recall the ancient Philistines DNA paper where they found a strong European genetic input among some Philistine samples. 200 years later, this European signal almost completely disappeared. The authors suggest that after arriving in the Levant, the people who had this European signature intermarried with a local population, which led to the genetic signature getting diluted in the Levantine population, to a point where it wasn't detectable anymore. According to the scholars, the Philistine influence was a drop of migration that had a very short-term genetic effect, but a long term cultural effect. A similar scenario like in the Philistines case could've been unfolding in Iran with the Steppe migration.

Well, in that case, yes it could be possible.
 
So we'll have to wait for the papers and see what evidence Reich has to say that the archaic PIE originated in northern Iran and not in the steppe.
 
It was never said that there was no steppe ancestry in the region in the Iron Age, only that there were 16 samples that did not have such ancestry, Angela. And between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age (a short period of time) it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for this ancestry to be diluted to zero.
The Cameroons example is different: because the R1b haplogroup arrived there in the Neolithic period (or even earlier), so there was enough time (from that time until today) for non-African ancestry to dilute to zero.

As Real Expert pointed out, two centuries was almost enough. Depending on the numbers involved in the populations, and the degree of out-marriage, two centuries could indeed be enough to wash it out.

That said, I'm sure such a thing would occur to people of the caliber of the Reich team, so I want to see what they have to say.
 
Hasanlu is close to the ancient city of Osku in the northwest of Iran, which was mentioned by Assyrian king Sargon II (722 – 705 BC) as Uskaya.

Usko-Mediterranean peoples: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543906/ The usko-Mediterraneans peoples are defined as ancient and present day populations that have lived in the Mediterranean/Middle-East/Caucasus area and have spoken a Basque related language.
 
So the Yamnaya ancestry was not EHG men and CHG/Iran_N women, but the opposite: CHG/Iran_N men and EHG women (at least that's what I understood).

I think it is a problem that EHG is directly connected to CHG, even if two admixtures happened at Pontic steppe.
EHG carried mtDNA C, Baikal burial type and Baikal type pottery. J was found in EHG. Hotu people carried EHG admixture and Baikal type pottery. That is why I always say that PIE seems to appear in the triangle zone of neolithic Baikal, Karelia and Hotu cave.
Ural south east culture had contacted Caspian sea south east from Mesolithic to eneolithic. With gene data, WSHG migrated to Caspian sea south east and IVC. As I posted several times, sky God concept on altai petroglyph spread to yamna, ancient greek, china bronze, Hindu and whole America continent. (Representing mongol empire is only one Adna Gengiskan has. Do we need more?)

03bfe35a1b897afbdd3ae4d395a75bae.jpg

yamna also:

15-722580fde7.jpg


Around 1,600bc, chariot army dominated whole Eurasia including ancient Europe. As I posted in below, altai and neolithic Baikal culture also spread together.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ained-without-mentioning-Seima-Turbino/page6?

We don’t know how ancient people classified themselves and how they thought. Scholars say logically that yamna people migrated to altai for mining and animal husbandry. Moreover harsh weather made Scythian migrate. However, I learned from one greek member that ancient greek people left home when they became teens.
Scholars think that mound grave culture on pontic steppe originated from south Caucasus. However, new evidence was found 5 years ago. Altai and west Siberia is too huge, but sparsely populated, hence, we don’t know what are buried in there.

A-kurgan.jpg



"]A burial mound accommodating the remains of nine individuals dated to the Stone Age has been unearthed in western Siberia. The discovery’s significance lies primarily in the fact that this kind of burial site was believed to have emerged later, in the Bronze Age, Russian media report.
The discovery was made by archaeologists and students from the Kemerovo State University. The head of the archaeology department at the university, Vladimir Bobrov, told Interfax that common opinion in archaeological circles is that these kinds of burial mound, called kurgans and associated mostly with the Scythians, appeared in the Bronze Age, “after the discovery of the alloy.” The mound in Vengerovsky region, however, has been dated to between the sixth or fifth millennium BCE, in the Neolithic. Earlier finds have suggested that Neolithic people buried their dead in individual graves or at most buried two people in the same grave, which was no more than a hole in the ground, Bobrov explained.
This mound, however, was completely different. For one thing, it resembles a house rather than a grave. For another, it contains the remains of no less than nine people: men, women, and children, plus a stone axe and a horn-tipped arrow. To make things even more fascinating, the researchers working at the site found that the people had not all been buried in the kurgan simultaneously. Some of the occupants were laid to rest there originally, but others were initially buried elsewhere and only later moved to the mound."

 
I would say that this is not the only possible explanation. I am only reasoning. If they arrived with Steppe ancestry in their genome in the Bronze Age, generation after generation in the Iron Age, after mixing for centuries with the local population without Steppe, might Steppe ancestry signal have simply disappeared from their genome?

When is it estimated that they may have arrived in the Bronze Age?

I also ask Anfänger.

Yep, same thing happened with R1b in West Africa. This explanation is only reasonable if we find IE haplogroups in this region before it appears in EHG
 
As Real Expert pointed out, two centuries was almost enough. Depending on the numbers involved in the populations, and the degree of out-marriage, two centuries could indeed be enough to wash it out.

That said, I'm sure such a thing would occur to people of the caliber of the Reich team, so I want to see what they have to say.

Yes, in a total drowning of males in a new pop, taking 3 generations by centuries, so for 200 years, 6 generations after, the descendants have around only 1,6/1,7 % of the imported DNA. Surely, this scenario is rarely so perfect, but we can consider 8 generations in place of 6; ATW, the donors were maybe not 100% 'steppe' rich, so... Total accord with you and Real Expert here.
 
Hasanlu is close to the ancient city of Osku in the northwest of Iran, which was mentioned by Assyrian king Sargon II (722 – 705 BC) as Uskaya.

Usko-Mediterranean peoples: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543906/ The usko-Mediterraneans peoples are defined as ancient and present day populations that have lived in the Mediterranean/Middle-East/Caucasus area and have spoken a Basque related language.

No offense, but I read the abstract which you put the link here, and this site doesn't seem to me too serious, not at all. and odten HLA is strongly under natural selection, I think, not the best for ancient co-ancestry?
 
Most of what you say is possibly true but the Cameroonian R1b can't be older than about 7,000 years old (and most likely is less than 6000 years old) because a type of R1b that is Basal to all verified SSA R1b-V88 was found in Italy about 7,000 years ago only 500 years after the haplogroup was formed.
 
..........

That said, I'm sure such a thing would occur to people of the caliber of the Reich team, so I want to see what they have to say.

I'm really curious to know why Reich seems to favor the Anatolian instead of the NW Iran/Armenian hypothesis. Doesn't the Iranian hypothesis make more sense, given the fact that there is no Ancient Anatolian but Ancient Iranian genetic influence in India?

 
No offense, but I read the abstract which you put the link here, and this site doesn't seem to me too serious, not at all. and odten HLA is strongly under natural selection, I think, not the best for ancient co-ancestry?

The ralation between Basque and the Caucasian languages has been mentioned in Encyclopedia Britannica too: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Basque-language

It is certainly possible that some people who lived in the northwest of Iran in the ancient times, related to these people.
 

This thread has been viewed 205112 times.

Back
Top