Veneti / Venedi / Wends (OFFTOPIC Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b-U152/S28)

Taranis said:
Yetos, you're completely confusing things there:

1) You probably mean the Anatolian Hypothesis. It is completely irrelevant in this context. The Anatolian Hypothesis assumes that the Indo-European languages spread during the Neolithic with the spread of agriculture. In no way the Anatolian Hypothesis invalidates the idea of a Proto-Germanic homeland, it merely assumes that the original branching of the Indo-European languages was earlier. The consequence, of course, in the genetic context, would be that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were bearers of Haplogroup G2, and not R1a or R1b, and that Ötzi very likely would have already been a speaker of an Indo-European language. But, this thread, and this discussion about the Veneti is completely irrelevant to this discussion about the origin of the Indo-Europeans because we are talking about the iron age, thousands of years later (regardless of the question wether the Kurgan hypothesis or the Anatolian hypothesis is correct). We are talking about events that occured simultaneously to Greek or Roman written history.

2) You're assuming that Thracian (a Satem languages) somehow "transmuted" (against what in linguistics is deemed possible, since sound laws have no memories) into Proto-Germanic (a Centum language) and then made in a massive migration (which archaeology never recorded) from the mouth of the Danube to northern Germany and Scandinavia. Don't you see how impossible it is what you are proposing?

3) this question is completely irrelevant. No matter what scenario on the origin of the Indo-Europeans is correct, it doesn't change that the Jastorf Culture or the Nordic Bronze Age are the most likely candidates for the speakers of Proto-Germanic.
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hmm, if I take the satem-centum well you are maybe weight,
but when did this happened?
My point is that Thracian become Satem when Scythians enter minor Scythia,
on the other hand if I looj the duridanov;s work and compaire it with the Thracian remnants in Greek and in Germanic Dialects I see that we have more centum sounds in Greek than in Germanic, (sgar, καρφ, sharp)
The lack of knowledge in Germanic and Thracian at the time of Troyan wars is an obstackle but the archaiology gives proto or para-Germanic population east of Vistula and North of surely Getan, and from Linguistic we even have Gothic in Crimea, just watch in south Getan in midle Vandal and bastanae and in Norh Guton,
could the satemization of Thracian took place when Scythian enter Scythia minor?

when we check the cultures we see that Daci-Getan culture is not connected with a Pommeranian one (Gothic-germanic spaeking), but when we check the midlle ones prezeworsky and the next we see a balance among la Tene and Pomeranian and Getan (Vandals-Bastanae, Germanic speaking)
so could Thracian and Gothic be one language that split to Satem and Centum after troyan wars, especially when Scythians come near them?

if yes then surely we can explain why south Thracian accept so easy the Slavic and North Gothic turn a more Germanic.

besides we recogn Aesti as Esthonians but could they been the Austi (auster-goths?)


you also gave an answer about 2nd century known Germanic speaking places.
you also see that zarubintsy culture was Germanic or para-Germanic speaking, a culture next to the Getae.

now you even notice that all Germanic or para-Germanic, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Teutones moved West,
so where is the Thracian R1a and R1b that was found in Thracian tombs in Bulgaria?
the heart of once Thracian-Getan today have less R1a and R1b than Greece,
so? did it moved North and West at the known times of the above?
was it exterminate by the same diseases that also Greece suffered?
was it exterminate by Christians like the Greek?
or the Slavic and Bulgarian entrance was not so 'peacefull'


Ok the thread is about Wends so need to expand more, you may delete our posting conversation, if you think is not suitable,

PS
Vandalic language is still under discuss of how Germanic it was, and some claim even that was Slavic, could it been para-gothic or para-getan?
 
Another genetic marker claiming the venedi is N1C1 M-178 declared in russian and lithuaian scripts. Although the lithuanians say its more ancient Livonian , which apparently as a language has disappeared.

How many more genetic studies are required.

Could genetic really play a part in finding out
 
I have been looking at trying to find the venetic isoglosses in europe and there are a lot of papers, but really none around the baltic sea except this small reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dr._C.S._Lewis-Barrie,_Ph.D.

modern Venetian has mi as representing I and me

The Baltic connection for venetic/venedic isoglosses always link it to a finnic-ugric or livonion/curionian grouping which has some influence in southwest Finland


I believe there is a gothic infleuence as the Goths "surronded " the venedi on all sides except the east which where the Aestii people
 
More from dr. s barrie

I have interpreted ALL COMPLETE INSCRIPTIONS I could find, and all the results in an Estonianized form that produces grammatical parallels (altho you have to know Estonian and FInnish to really see it), and all the results make total sense, and are not absurd like the traditional interpretations not to mention the Slovenian ones which are so absurd even archeologists dismiss them outright. You criticize my 'simple Estonian' characterization. What I mean by that,I used common Estonian, which endures a long time: what is taught to children is much older than most dictionary modern Estonian. By contrast the Slovenians searched for words high and low through tens of thousands of words in all the Slavic and even Balt languages. Fact is ancient langauges had relatively small vocabularies because they were spoken in context and not separate from the speaker like literary language. You say Estonian did not even exist. Well modern Estonian didn't, but the Aestii language did, and in my book I demonstrate that the Aestii language was the same as the Venedi spoken of by the Greeks and that the Aestii was the Suebic name for them. It turns out to mean 'buyers' as that was what was happening at the mouth of the Vistula - there was a trade center there. But I recognize the problem of using modern language to translate an ancient one. Thus I was very careful about it. I crossreferenced Estonian word choices with Finnish, as if the stem existed in both the probability of the stem existing at the time of the Veneti was high. I also used other techniques to in effect do comparative linguistics on the fly. Fact is western Finnic languages are instinct, and so it is now impossible to reconstruct in whole the languages of the south Baltic. So I did NOT use any Estonian that seemed to be new. Archeology and history also helps support the theory. Archeology shows amber coming down from two origins that can be seen to have had Finnic language and classic Greek and Latin writers have identified the Veneti as their source of amber.

from Tacticus
(b) Tacitus (ca. A.D. 100), the prominent Roman historian, in his treatise de situ, moribus et populis Germaniae c. XLIII. writes:

"Trans Lygios Gothones regnantur, paullo jam adductius, quam ceterae Germannorum gentes, nondum tamen supra libertatem. Protimus deinde ab Oceano Rugii, et Lemovii:"

Meaning: "Beyond the Lygians reign the Gothones, who are more united (mobilized) than other Germanic tribes, yet are enjoying greater freedom. Near by the Ocean live Rugians (1), and Livonians (2):"


We know the rugii tribe lived in eastern Pommerania, above states the venedi are Livonians
 
I do not see any clear link between Lusacian and the Y-R1a-1029+
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This is a question to everybody inside this thread:
which is in your opinion the subclade more rappresentative and more near to Lusatian Culture (1300 - 500 a. C.).
 
piero said:
This is a question to everybody inside this thread:
which is in your opinion the subclade more rappresentative and more near to Lusatian Culture (1300 - 500 a. C.).
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That is the question as you say because true slavs do not have the L1029+ marker.

Also the Kursenieki have this marker and their ancient language ranged from danzig to riga
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursenieki
They where called also curonions, and their capital was the modern town named Ventspils
Wynda or Ventava was the land around the mouth of the river Venta, today in the district of Ventspils.
These Curonians originated from Kven a land in southern Finland

Culture of the Curonians
Kunda culture
Narva culture
Corded Ware culture
Amber Road and Aesti
Baltic Finns: Livonians, Vends
Latgalians, Curonians, Selonians, Semigallians


Its an easy thing for Romans to call unknown people living along the coast in which they do not know of as Venetus - the Roman colour for the Sea.
This is all hypothetical , but we all know only 1 historian actually visited the Baltic sea and he noted the Venedi in modern day nation of Latvia.
All scholars today claim a different genetic marker for the Venedi, but this marker, of only 3 months of age ( L1029+) should reveal something else in the future


The only link between the Venedi of the baltic with the Veneti of the Adriatic was the amber road
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road
 
interesting but what is your aim there? what is your "party"?
there are some threads here and there spoiled by boring childish-magic-linguistic trying to prove what is not possible to prove - I hope you are telling us: all that proves only indo-european old links with some loanwords (as surely 'bok' in slavic, from germanic) - I can affirm you that the verb 'to be' in present day iranish, spite the long evolution, shows evident links with breton conjugaison for the ending (at the past, it is truly magic: even the stem is "breton": bud /bood/ : welsh 'bod', S-bret- 'boud' (N-bret- 'bezañ' << 'bed-am'
so if I should be someones, I could affirm THE BRETONS ARE A OFFSPRING OF IRANIANS OR OLD PERSES
thanks for the precision and do not take offense because I did not understand what was your purpose by posting this
good night
 
MOESAN said:
interesting but what is your aim there? what is your "party"?
there are some threads here and there spoiled by boring childish-magic-linguistic trying to prove what is not possible to prove - I hope you are telling us: all that proves only indo-european old links with some loanwords (as surely 'bok' in slavic, from germanic) - I can affirm you that the verb 'to be' in present day iranish, spite the long evolution, shows evident links with breton conjugaison for the ending (at the past, it is truly magic: even the stem is "breton": bud /bood/ : welsh 'bod', S-bret- 'boud' (N-bret- 'bezañ' << 'bed-am'
so if I should be someones, I could affirm THE BRETONS ARE A OFFSPRING OF IRANIANS OR OLD PERSES
thanks for the precision and do not take offense because I did not understand what was your purpose by posting this
good night
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Since I know little of the armorica veneti and you are a breton, maybe you can enlighten me to the first time it was named Veneti. My only knowledge of it is dated to around the year 100BC.

The other old link which I read was that the Phoenicians from cadiz traded with the brittany veneti for TIN, which these veneti obtained from Cornwall and Wales.

There is a genetic marker I provided in previous posts which link some of the Armorica veneti with te Baltic venedi


In regards to offsprings of the persians, I read it was the Medes of persia, the same people that are said to be in western Veneto i.e, between the cities of Vicenza and Verona
 
zanipolo said:
Since I know little of the armorica veneti and you are a breton, maybe you can enlighten me to the first time it was named Veneti. My only knowledge of it is dated to around the year 100BC.

The other old link which I read was that the Phoenicians from cadiz traded with the brittany veneti for TIN, which these veneti obtained from Cornwall and Wales.

There is a genetic marker I provided in previous posts which link some of the Armorica veneti with te Baltic venedi


In regards to offsprings of the persians, I read it was the Medes of persia, the same people that are said to be in western Veneto i.e, between the cities of Vicenza and Verona
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partial answer (sorry for my english: I 'll do my better)
I do not think that "veneti" is a latin word for a "came by sea" people - these names are endonymes, not exonymes - 'ven' is a linguistic element surely of I-E origin but I do not know the meaning, but it could have been common enough among more thant a family of I-Ean language - and yet, are you absolutely sure that 'venet-' and 'vent-' (Venta, Ventava, Ventspils...) are the same word or root: it is just a possibility -
we need more -
Y-I1-M253 is a very poor "marker" because it is the basic SNP of all Y-I1 - Yes, I1 is a geographically nordic marker; culturally when we lack subgroups we can say it is frequent among firts determined germanic people and too among finnic people of Finnland (some coming from previous germanic small populations) - it could have been present among baltic and celtic people but at a very very low level - in Brittany where it does not go over the 8%, some of these Y-I1 came with Vikings around 880/936 (proxi) the low presence of an HG or SNP in two far countries on the margins can not be interpreted as a proof of cultural community of origins -
for Iranic or Persian, I gave this example for verb 'to be' ONLY TO SHOW that there is no tight link between breton and iranian language, only a far I-Ean link (Irish shows some ancient links to sanskritic, to push farther ) and to show that it is of no use putting series (sequels,) of examples linking some I-Ean "sons" of PIE - in every language we can find archaïc words or meanings that fell in abandon in the greater number of languages and that remind in some peripheric areas, in different families of derived I-Ean languages: everybody that studies dialects knows that - that does not prove by it a peculiar close link between the languages where we find them today -
the phoenician "lochness monster" is another thing - yes, Phoenicians got very far away and did trade with N-W Europe but i am not aware of stellements by them there on northern Atalntic shores - if you have some source about that, I would be glad knowing it) -
good evening
 
MOESAN said:
partial answer (sorry for my english: I 'll do my better)
I do not think that "veneti" is a latin word for a "came by sea" people - these names are endonymes, not exonymes - 'ven' is a linguistic element surely of I-E origin but I do not know the meaning, but it could have been common enough among more thant a family of I-Ean language - and yet, are you absolutely sure that 'venet-' and 'vent-' (Venta, Ventava, Ventspils...) are the same word or root: it is just a possibility -
we need more -
Y-I1-M253 is a very poor "marker" because it is the basic SNP of all Y-I1 - Yes, I1 is a geographically nordic marker; culturally when we lack subgroups we can say it is frequent among firts determined germanic people and too among finnic people of Finnland (some coming from previous germanic small populations) - it could have been present among baltic and celtic people but at a very very low level - in Brittany where it does not go over the 8%, some of these Y-I1 came with Vikings around 880/936 (proxi) the low presence of an HG or SNP in two far countries on the margins can not be interpreted as a proof of cultural community of origins -
for Iranic or Persian, I gave this example for verb 'to be' ONLY TO SHOW that there is no tight link between breton and iranian language, only a far I-Ean link (Irish shows some ancient links to sanskritic, to push farther ) and to show that it is of no use putting series (sequels,) of examples linking some I-Ean "sons" of PIE - in every language we can find archaïc words or meanings that fell in abandon in the greater number of languages and that remind in some peripheric areas, in different families of derived I-Ean languages: everybody that studies dialects knows that - that does not prove by it a peculiar close link between the languages where we find them today -
the phoenician "lochness monster" is another thing - yes, Phoenicians got very far away and did trade with N-W Europe but i am not aware of stellements by them there on northern Atalntic shores - if you have some source about that, I would be glad knowing it) -
good evening
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I agree that the name Ven.... appears in too many places, there are 5 tribes in the alps which begin with ven. But Venetus does mean the colour of the sea in Roman, then there is vende = to sell, venire = to come, venere = friday ( after norse goddess frigar) , venr = norse god, vinea ( venea)= grapevine etc etc

In regards to phoenicians, well the timeteam crew in England found untouched phoenican pottery in cornwall indicating a direct trade with phoenicians.
http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html

In regards to all the veneti/venedi , I believe they are unrelated with each other, there languages are different ( even though only 1 Venetic is known ), their genetics are different ( even if we take minimal haplotype).

I still would like to know when the Veneti in armorica where named veneti

some say
Early studies of so-called "Amber Routes" were by sources quoted in messrs. de Navarro (Geographical Journal 1925) and Hawkes (8 th Myres Lecture = Pytheas: the Greeks and Ancient Europe 1975). They trace it through middle Europe to "caput Adria" (= head of the Adriatic Sea). Here were the Veneti and they in turn bring us to the origin of the name of the Veneti.

Across Europe are what philologists describe as Q-tongues in which a hard c/k/q-sound precedes that of p/b in closely related languages. Examples include Q-tongued Ionic Greek, as opposed to P-tongued Doric (esp. Attic) Greek; Q-tongued Venetic as oppsed to the other more usually P-tongued Illyrian; Q-tongued Latin, as opposed to the P-tongued Umbro/Oscan; Q-tongued Goidelic, as opposed to the other Celtic that is usually B/P-tongued.
Not only is Venetic the most westerly of the Illyrian languages but is also considered the most Celticised of the Illyrian tongues of mainly what are now Slovenia/Croatia/Serbia. With Veneti also seen as the name of a tribe of Celts of what was Gaul/is now France
 
I must repeat my shelf again,

1rst the Vistula Venedi,
2nd the adriatic Veneti
3rd the Austrian wienneti
4rth other possible Venedi

now the first description of Vistula Venedi is ουενεδαι ouenede, I am expecting someone who knows Grim's laws to turn back to a proto IE form but I am sure it will result as Ου to w, wenede, or wenede etc
letter w in Germanic languages sometimes sounds like V
by following the swedish and the Danish we see that Vistula Venedi are named as Vendels, so probably we speak about Vandals,

about adrias sea and Venice, I believe has nothing to do with the sound of W to V but is original V.
I believe that it is Venice and not Wenice. and I don't think that has something to do with Vistula Venedi,

about Austria and Wienn, well that is a temptation to challenge,
so Austria in Germanic languages means outer Kingdom, but how common is auster with offster and ostria (France au sounds as o, austria ->ostria)
Austria is connected with Ostrogoths migration (Oster, Auster-Goths or Ostrian-Goths?) but can it be connected also with Vandals? (Wendles)
the name Wienn is the only Germanic or central-North word that has 2n, that means that either something is missing either they were in conduct with southern Europe or minor Asia or Levant.
there are many possibilities about Wienn,
lets take the possibility that second n is a drop of d so wend drop to wenn, and the possibility that aesti lived next to Wends,
we see something similar if we connect the Aesti with Auster,
so if I conect Wends with Vandals and and Ostrogoths we see that Wends were Germanic para-Germanic speaking
and if I also connect Aesti with Auster then surely I have Austria and Wienn as creation of Wends when the west amber road was established and become strong.
the above is just a thought, cause another theory connect Wienn with Γενντις Yienntish which means merchants, or new ones (kainoi)
But it can explain how today Austria change from Celtic or para-Celtic to Germanic.

about other possible veneti etc I don't know but I know that there where 4 amber roads
the ancient one was in Black sea in areas around today Romania Moldova and Ucraine, that after Makedonian rise drop and even exting
then at Roman times change to the today known as West amber road.
later a new road started when Serbs enter Balkans, with exit to Thessaloniki, (Thessaloniki, Nis-Kossovo-Pedge, Donav, Chechia-Bohemia or Wienn)
and a 3rd road opened near the ancient one when Rus went down Volga river in Crimea, (Novgorod-Kiev-Crimea-Con/polis)
but we see no Wends in the other 2 roads, only in the West amber Road we see the above I wrote.
 
Yetos said:
I must repeat my shelf again,

1rst the Vistula Venedi,
2nd the adriatic Veneti
3rd the Austrian wienneti
4rth other possible Venedi

now the first description of Vistula Venedi is ουενεδαι ouenede, I am expecting someone who knows Grim's laws to turn back to a proto IE form but I am sure it will result as Ου to w, wenede, or wenede etc
letter w in Germanic languages sometimes sounds like V
by following the swedish and the Danish we see that Vistula Venedi are named as Vendels, so probably we speak about Vandals,

about adrias sea and Venice, I believe has nothing to do with the sound of W to V but is original V.
I believe that it is Venice and not Wenice. and I don't think that has something to do with Vistula Venedi,

about Austria and Wienn, well that is a temptation to challenge,
so Austria in Germanic languages means outer Kingdom, but how common is auster with offster and ostria (France au sounds as o, austria ->ostria)
Austria is connected with Ostrogoths migration (Oster, Auster-Goths or Ostrian-Goths?) but can it be connected also with Vandals? (Wendles)
the name Wienn is the only Germanic or central-North word that has 2n, that means that either something is missing either they were in conduct with southern Europe or minor Asia or Levant.
there are many possibilities about Wienn,
lets take the possibility that second n is a drop of d so wend drop to wenn, and the possibility that aesti lived next to Wends,
we see something similar if we connect the Aesti with Auster,
so if I conect Wends with Vandals and and Ostrogoths we see that Wends were Germanic para-Germanic speaking
and if I also connect Aesti with Auster then surely I have Austria and Wienn as creation of Wends when the west amber road was established and become strong.
the above is just a thought, cause another theory connect Wienn with Γενντις Yienntish which means merchants, or new ones (kainoi)
But it can explain how today Austria change from Celtic or para-Celtic to Germanic.

about other possible veneti etc I don't know but I know that there where 4 amber roads
the ancient one was in Black sea in areas around today Romania Moldova and Ucraine, that after Makedonian rise drop and even exting
then at Roman times change to the today known as West amber road.
later a new road started when Serbs enter Balkans, with exit to Thessaloniki, (Thessaloniki, Nis-Kossovo-Pedge, Donav, Chechia-Bohemia or Wienn)
and a 3rd road opened near the ancient one when Rus went down Volga river in Crimea, (Novgorod-Kiev-Crimea-Con/polis)
but we see no Wends in the other 2 roads, only in the West amber Road we see the above I wrote.
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Yetos, you are making a bit of job trying to find new explanations of History and it is good to search further on and not always receive official dogmas, but I shall do some details remarks (no dramatic result) :
1- I do not see any good reason to affirm that the V- in the Italy Veneti was not an I-E /W-/ even if this /w/ pronunciation is not well proved -
2- for Wienna (and I am well aware of the difficulties when trying to establish a noun or name etymology) I will be very glad if I could have old forms before my eyes: the modern german 'ie' is a long vowells, that have been diphtongued in old times - even if tempting, we have to prove this evolution VEN(D) to VIENN...
3- the connexion (supposed) WIENN <> genntis/yienntis seams to me very phantasmagoric for I know about phonetic ties between germanic and hellenic concerning IE roots -
4- AESTI with 'ae' is far for me from 'AUST-'/'OST-' for evolutive phonetic reasons too -
what remains?
the possible connexion VANDALS/VENETI/VENEDI is not absurd (for I believe, VENETI/VENEDI of Western Poland could have been a branch of N-Adriatic VENETI, far cousins of italic Ombrians, passed in Poland through Bohemia or Moravia at the proto-lusacian times (Urnfields background, very possible if I do not a mess with dates) being these Veneti based previously between present day Hungaria and Austria, and ancient Pannonia (Croatia) - these proto-italic far relative people could have been germanized after in N-W Ploand?
but concerning the germanization of present day Austria, spite I lack some more knowledge, I see other causes of it, maybe posterior ones, putting in scene other Germanics tribes of western stocks, perhaps a cumulative effect along centuries?
just to castrate lice, as we say in breton!
 
I have re-opened this thread and moved the off-topic discussion that derailed this thread into a separate thread.
 
Since there was an Illyrian discussion in there, can I just add that vënd in Albanian means place/nation. I looked it up and they suggest a different root word for the wend slavs but theres always a possibility they could be wrong?

Tbh, I originally think proto-Albanian developed around the area of southern poland, east of germanic and celtic, and south of Balto-slavic. So approximately around the wend urheimat? Everyday, I keep finding more and more words in common with albanian and germanic words, i.e. english words of non-latin origin. Im assuming there is a lot non-latin words in common with slavic languages as well, but I dont speak any so I cant verify. My point is that these languages must have been in close proximity at some ancient time. Anyhow, thats it for my almost absurd speculation.
 
piero said:
This is a question to everybody inside this thread:
which is in your opinion the subclade more rappresentative and more near to Lusatian Culture (1300 - 500 a. C.).
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Lusatian Culture and so Lugii were R1a-M458 guys. They have come in Central Europe (Central and Southern Poland) something like ~4500 bp.
 
zanipolo said:
Its an easy thing for Romans to call unknown people living along the coast in which they do not know of as Venetus - the Roman colour for the Sea.
This is all hypothetical , but we all know only 1 historian actually visited the Baltic sea and he noted the Venedi in modern day nation of Latvia.
All scholars today claim a different genetic marker for the Venedi, but this marker, of only 3 months of age ( L1029+) should reveal something else in the future

The only link between the Venedi of the baltic with the Veneti of the Adriatic was the amber road
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road
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Venedi (Vandal, Vandalii, Vyatechy, Wesi, Veneti, Antes and so on) were ancestors of Balts, Slavs and even some Germans. They lived on rivers (mostly in Central Europe: from the Rhine to the Dnepr) and sea shores (mostly Baltic and North sea) and were involved in trade by various routs by river and sea. The core of this group of people consisted of R1a-Z280 guys, that's why we have today so many clades donwstream from R1a-Z280 and so few from R1a-M458.
The most amazing thing is that even now so many years past we can see trade routes of R1a-Z280 covering all the Central Europe and connecting Northern and Southern Europe and Eastern and Western Europe.
 
Taranis said:
Yetos, it's pretty clear that the Getae and the Goths were very distinct people. Sources like Pliny and Strabo place them consistently along the Danube as well as the shore of the Black Sea (notably, the so-called "Tyragetae"), and there's no reason to assume that they were Germanic in any way. In contrast, the Goths ("Gothones" or "Guthones") were placed by Ptolemy along the east bank of the Vistula river. Tacitus also places the Goths clearly somewhere in the eastern periphery of Germania, which matches that location. The only person to ever draw a connection between the Getae and the Goths was Jordanes, which, for the reasons I previously described, cannot be treated as a particularly reliable source.

I have to add that I find it a little remarkable that this keeps popping up. If one uses sources other than Jordanes, it's pretty clear that there is no connection.
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I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.
 
GloomyGonzales said:
I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.
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Reading about the goths and their hereditary homeland, I find Ptolemy slightly wrong in saying that the goths lived on the west bank of the vistula, they lived on both sides of the vistula and their border was the Nogat river in the east and as far as the hinterpommern western border. East of the goths on the other side of the Nogat river was the Venedi which are baltic people and next to these venedi was the Aestii

As for Jordanes, he was a goth born in pannonia who wrote nothing originally but plagarised other writers and converted their findings to enforce the greatness of the Goths.

800px-Europa_Germanen_50_n_Chr.svg.png
 
GloomyGonzales said:
I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.
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Where is the evidence for this, other than Jordanes' claims? You have to consider that we have a substantial corpus of Gothic (thanks to a 4th century bible translation), and there is no sign of such a (Dacian or whatever) substrate language.

Besides, do you think that Jordanes can really be trusted with such claims like the Goths fightings against the Egyptians, or allying themselves with Alexander the Great (I'm not making any of that up: Jordanes really wrote that)? I think not.

Also, why shouldn't the people of the Wielbark Culture have been Germanic? The culture is effectively contemporary to authors such as Pliny, Tacitus and Ptolemy, all which mention the Goths and place them into approximately that area (Ptolemy is also very specific about this, as I have mentioned).

GloomyGonzales said:
Venedi (Vandal, Vandalii, Vyatechy, Wesi, Veneti, Antes and so on) were ancestors of Balts, Slavs and even some Germans. They lived on rivers (mostly in Central Europe: from the Rhine to the Dnepr) and sea shores (mostly Baltic and North sea) and were involved in trade by various routs by river and sea. The core of this group of people consisted of R1a-Z280 guys, that's why we have today so many clades donwstream from R1a-Z280 and so few from R1a-M458.
The most amazing thing is that even now so many years past we can see trade routes of R1a-Z280 covering all the Central Europe and connecting Northern and Southern Europe and Eastern and Western Europe.
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What are you basing this on? How do you see a link here?
 
Phoenician (derives from Feniti, Veneti) god Baal was Slavic god Veles (Vaal or Vol; "wool" (Bull; Ox(Vol).

There are linguistic indications that even Akkadians have had some influence of old Slavic languages. Slovenian engineer, linguist Lucijan Vuga collected at least 500 words/similarities between Slovene-old Akkadian in a short dictionary. (In Slovene remained also strong similarities with the ancient Rig Vedic (Rek Vedski) Sanskrit); and Sanskrit shared similarities with Hittite. For example: Hittite city of Kadesh shares similarities with the Sanskrit term deza which means "country" and with Slovene dežela which means a "country". The similar form for this word is "Desh". So "Kad-desh" or "Country of Hittites". (and not a "holy land" as it is explained on Wikipedia.
Veneti were a multi ethnic, lingual people but I think that there were similarities between them over the "Amber road/path". From Scandinavia (if you've ever heard about the theory of "Troy (another Venetic people) in Scandinavia") to Paflagonia, Anatolia, Venetic territories.
 
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