Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Czech, Norwegians don't have Bedouin admixture, I'm not exactly sure what charts were you seeing. There's 1-3% Bedouin admixture in Slovenia, Hungary vs 20-30% In South Italy and European Jews. That's a small difference.

Now you're throwing away the mask. Welcome back, what else I can add.
 
The jury is out on who has more Bedouin.

This Bedouin approves (y)

520418_00656def2fb5d98615c34690766822bf_large.jpg
 
Czech, Norwegians don't have Bedouin admixture, I'm not exactly sure what charts were you seeing. There's 1-3% Bedouin admixture in Slovenia, Hungary vs 20-30% In South Italy and European Jews. That's a small difference.

Like I said in the IQ thread, this guy's a ***** possibly using multiple accounts; evading a previous ban.
 
What on earth are you talking about? If you have problems with reading comprehension this may not be the forum for you. If you're ******** again, it definitely isn't.

We are discussing stats from the Reich lab, specifically from Haak et al, as we clearly stated.

There isn't 20-30% Bedouin in any population in Europe. You're either sadly misinformed or ******** again. Since this seems to be a pattern, I would say ********, so take the consequences.

Sicilians have 22-23% Bedouin admixture, Spaniards have 18% while Maltese have exceeded 30% in a older study, but on all DNA charts there's a visible North African/Bedouin influence in parts of Southern Europe. I don't understand why it's a problem. It's not some kind of disease to have genetic relatedness to Near Eastern populations, wish my DNA was as exotic as some Italians have it's nice to have genetic heterogeneity.

2vwsrip.jpg
 
Obviously the Bedouin component stands for something else in most cases. Also it doesn't really improve the fits in Europe much except for those four populations (Sicilians, Maltese, Iberians, Jews who get a good chunk of it), unlike the Nganasan which improves the whole of Europe pretty much with an expected bias toward the Northeast. I posted it to compare how the steppe estimate changes between the three analyses.



I haven't seen that calculator but by "extra" you mean that it's supposedly ancestry not related to the Caucasus/Iran component in Yamnaya but additional one like of the type the Minoans-Mycenaeans had?

See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ncient-Calculator-Results?highlight=geneplaza
 
Sicilians have 22-23% Bedouin admixture, Spaniards have 18% while Maltese have exceeded 30% in a older study, but on all DNA charts there's a visible North African/Bedouin influence in parts of Southern Europe. I don't understand why it's a problem. It's not some kind of disease to have genetic relatedness to Near Eastern populations, wish my DNA was as exotic as some Italians have it's nice to have genetic heterogeneity.

2vwsrip.jpg
If anything it stands for something else, it's not like Bedouins went to Europe or something, maybe Natufian.

EEF could be modeled as Natufians + WHG.
 
If anything it stands for something else, it's not like Bedouins went to Europe or something, maybe Natufian.

EEF could be modeled as Natufians + WHG.

Yes. Having shared ancestry with Bedouins /=Bedouin admixture. The Bedouin probably covers the post Neolithic admixture in Europe which is probably related to bronze age migrations from the Fertile descent as well as Phoenician, Carthagian admixture in the case of places like Sicily, Iberia, but anyway it seems some people don't like the Near East, so it's a taboo to talk anything about them.
 
@davef,
"why was he modeling Italians?"

Because Italians more or less overlap with Greeks in terms of "ancient" ancestry. Plus some posters thought Mycenaeans were more similar to Southern Italians than Greeks which isn't the case at all.

When I think about it because Greece and Italy are separated by ocean they shouldn't be similar genetically. It's a coincidence. It's a coincidence the same groups migrated into each place and people in both places ended up having a similar amount of ancestry from each group. It's an even weirder councidence how Askenazi Jews became "similar" to Southern Italians.
Yeah but his models are giving 50 something percent Mycenaean to Sicily and 47 percent to Greece. They kinda contradict the idea that Greeks are closer.

But I'll admit, I'm not implying that south Italians are closer; in fact, i still find it doubtful that your average Joe Greek has that little Mycenaean and that much Slavic.

And Pax Augusta posted results taken from a northern sample showing 3/4 Mycenaean, 1/4 slavic.
 
Sicilians have 22-23% Bedouin admixture, Spaniards have 18% while Maltese have exceeded 30% in a older study, but on all DNA charts there's a visible North African/Bedouin influence in parts of Southern Europe. I don't understand why it's a problem. It's not some kind of disease to have genetic relatedness to Near Eastern populations, wish my DNA was as exotic as some Italians have it's nice to have genetic heterogeneity.

2vwsrip.jpg

I guess you should have looked at it before you said that Norwegians didn't have any...a very small amount, but they do have it.

Of course there's nothing wrong with it. Anyone who has been here for a while knows I don't have any truck with Nordicist garbage.

However, if you really think that this represents actual Bedouin admixture into Spain, Sicily or even Malta there's really nothing I can add.

The Bedouin probably covers the post Neolithic admixture in Europe which is probably related to bronze age migrations from the Fertile descent as well as Phoenician, Carthagian admixture in the case of places like Sicily, Iberia, but anyway it seems some people don't like the Near East, so it's a taboo to talk anything about them.

Did you bother to read the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans? The Bronze Age ancestry brought steppe and Anatolian type ancestry with more Iran Neo/Chl. The amount of additional Levant type ancestry was about 3% if I remember correctly, which happens to be the amount of additional Levant Neo I get in Kurd's analysis based on ancient dna.
 
Yes. Having shared ancestry with Bedouins /=Bedouin admixture. The Bedouin probably covers the post Neolithic admixture in Europe which is probably related to bronze age migrations from the Fertile descent as well as Phoenician, Carthagian admixture in the case of places like Sicily, Iberia, but anyway it seems some people don't like the Near East, so it's a taboo to talk anything about them.
I don't think Phoenicians caused that much genetic change.
 
It's a misunderstanding to take Mycenaean related admixture as Hellenic as it's genetically would be nearly impossible to differentiate ancient Hellenes from other Bronze age populations that settled in Italy and across the whole Southern European coasts.
Maybe they weren't Hellenes, but I assume they were very closely related to Hellenic people and spoke similar language.
The same goes for Corded Ware related admixture including Bell Beaker. Ancient Romans were probably partially Pelasgian like and Corded Ware/Celtic.
 
I don't think Phoenicians caused that much genetic change.

Obviously not,at least as concerns Italy, but Curious Cat and our late un-lamented Nordicist/Stormfront Spanish posters love trotting it out.

Of course, Phoenicians are very much like Canaanites, who have a lot of Levant Neo, so some of that type of ancestry is part of Neolithic migrations to Europe.

I'm speaking specifically here of actual Phoenician/Carthaginian ancestry from that era.

greek-phoenician-colonies.jpg
 

Ah thanks. That is interesting, you got a pretty low % of the extra Iran-Caucasus but at least it seems that Northern Europeans do get less than the Italians and the Greek in that thread overall as expected.

Yeah but his models are giving 50 something percent Mycenaean to Sicily and 47 percent to Greece. They kinda contradict the idea that Greeks are closer.

But I'll admit, I'm not implying that south Italians are closer; in fact, i still find it doubtful that your average Joe Greek has that little Mycenaean and that much Slavic.

And Pax Augusta posted results taken from a northern sample showing 3/4 Mycenaean, 1/4 slavic.

It would depend on whether the rest of the ancestry needed to model them was already closer to the Mycenaeans, I suppose. But I don't see something impossible a priori about the idea of Sicilians being a bit closer than mainland Greeks if the further ancestry received in Greece was more different to the Myceneans than the one received in Sicily (e.g. early Slavs vs Anatolia/Levant, the Mycenaeans were much closer to the latter).

And anyway, what's needed is more sampling, clever modelling has its obvious limits. The one outlier with apparently higher steppe in this dataset was unfortunately too low-coverage for them to run more tests on apparently.

It's a misunderstanding to take Mycenaean related admixture as Hellenic as it's genetically would be nearly impossible to differentiate ancient Hellenes from other Bronze age populations that settled in Italy and across the whole Southern European coasts.

Yes, that's the case most likely as a few people have already pointed out. We just don't have better references for Italians right now so they latch onto the Mycenaeans. Of course actual Mycenaean/later Greek ancestry isn't unlikely in South Italy and Sicily.
 
Ah thanks. That is interesting, you got a pretty low % of the extra Iran-Caucasus but at least it seems that Northern Europeans do get less than the Italians and the Greek in that thread overall as expected.

These are the actual percentages. The totals are very small, nothing like has been thrown around by some "amateurs".

Northern Europeans:
Twilight 4.4
IIa3 Young 3.5
Tomenable/Polish: 8.4
Carl Graham 2.2
Olov 0
Northener 4.9
Appalachian 2.3
Bix 2%
AHA 3%

Italians:
Me 3.4
Regio’s family approximately 8%
Stuvane 7.1

Greek:
Matadworf 5.5

Bulgarian
Valerius 6.9

Albanian
Dibran 5.4

Basque-Arbaso 3%

We would need a lot more samples, but my hunch is that northwestern Italians will tend to have less of this than north eastern Italians because there was additional input from the Balkans and Greece into eastern areas of Italy before subsequent changes to the Greek and Balkan genomes. It only needs to be added that I'm one-quarter far Northwest Tuscan (the Lunigiana), and one-quarter Eastern Ligurian (La Spezia). You would think I'd have a bit of "Etruscan".

Now, this isn't a thread on Italian genetics. I shouldn't have let this continue for so long

Let's get back on topic.
 
Bedouin is used as an insult in Italy, ...sei un beduino (you're a bedouin...a rude person), lol, just joking :)
 
@curious cat,

Your country flag does not reflect your IP address location, which is London. That is grounds for an infraction. Please correct it.

@ihype
The same goes for you, as your IP address is from Hungary and you are flying the Albanian flag.
 
Im not trying to pick fights, but one model has Greeks at 75 percent Mycenaean and another has them at 47 percent, and I question why. That's a huge difference. I don't see how Mediterranean DNA (EEF with small Iran) with a small amt of extra steppe (Mycenaean) can be interchangeable with Slavic DNA.
 
@curious cat,

Your country flag does not reflect your IP address location, which is London. That is grounds for an infraction. Please correct it.

@ihype
The same goes for you, as your IP address is from Hungary and you are flying the Albanian flag.

I know that Stormfront is down, and Skadi, forumbiodiversity, and theapricity are probably not far behind, but you're not going to import your garbage here and imperil this site, in case I haven't made it sufficiently clear before.
 

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