Where did E-V13 originate ?

Hawk · Aug 22, 2020

Don't quote me indirectly and lump me with someone else. Do it directly if u have any issues or questions.

Aspurg · Aug 22, 2020

Aspar said:
Why not when the only ancient J-L283 samples from the Balkans so far is one exactly from the time and area of Cetina culture. Plus don't forget the Etruscan who autosomally had clear ties with the Balkans and was closely related to the Cetina J-L283 sample.

Duude.

BECAUSE IT IS NOT FROM CETINA CULTURE
The find is from another neighbor NON-CETINA CULTURE

Is this too hard to comprehend??

Aspar said:
Plus don't forget the Etruscan who autosomally had clear ties with the Balkans and was closely related to the Cetina J-L283 sample.

Again, it's not a Cetina sample. It is Dinara/Posušje MBA culture, NOT CETINA. This Cetina J-L283 is something you or someone else made up out of thin air but it's just it: MADE UP.

There is Etruscan connection. There is some archaeological evidence to suggest Etruscans came to Italy from the Northern Balkans. I do not deny in any way the possibility that some E-V13 clades actually preserved the Etruscan language. I believe it came from either them or the J-L283, or some G2a's in the area.. Surely not the R-L51's..

Proto-Etruscans (Villanova) were clearly connected to some very cultures I thought might be related to some Z5018 clades. And this Etruscan J-L283 find is an indication these links are not accidental..

I believe clades such as S7461 are locals in Bulgaria and related to Philistines because of their strength in the Middle East. River Strymon, a Thracian name used to be called Palaistinos. E-S7461 are IMO likely proto-Philistines or among them. That Getae find is S7461-. This clade has huge diversity in Bulgaria. MBA diversity. Philistines though seem to have been IE speakers and not Pelasgian-Etruscan speakers.

I think these represent some older E-V13 population present in MBA Bulgaria.

You are taking these sporadic finds too literally. You see few Greek non-E-V13 and you assume there was no E-V13 in Greeks. I take both aDNA and modern diversity equally in consideration.

Aspar said:
Then what was the haplogroup that brought the exact Cetina related burials in Greece which were radically different than the previous Mycenaean related burials?

E-Y37092
Greek YF67985
Also another candidate Greek from Peloponnese. PH1246+ and not connected to YF67985 by STR's.

Cetina related burials date to EHIII, Peloponnese 2200 BC, around 500 years earlier than another culture where J-L283 was found.

Aspar said:
And it's not just the burials, there are many Cetina related artifacts in connection to the Dorians.

There can't be directly Cetina related artifacts to Dorians because Cetina ended in Early MBA.

Aspar said:
Many people are on the opinion that YFULL's estimations are underestimated by 10-15%

And they are generally wrong. Because they criticize them to fit into their own fancy theories. But for example looking at the I2a tree, estimates are correct as they mimi Slavic migrations. In many cases for example some subclades have mutated more than sister clades so that creates some issues for the TMRCA, and some new formula will have to be used eventually for those cases.

Aspar said:
Northern J-Z631 subclades that were previously part of Cetina culture and later part of Eastern Urnfield.

J-L283 have nothing to do with the Urnfield. Neither do any E-V13 have anything to do with Urnfield in terms of origins from Central Europe. Aren't there enough BB samples? No E-V13.. Urnfielders were mostly R1b-L51. Any "Urnfield" E-V13's were some locals from Pannonian basin that were assimilated, some were likely pushed. Urnfielders were genetically Central/Northern European. As various results show, Pannonian MBA locals were not. Unless one considers they too shaped Urnfield culture in various ways..

Most E-V13 clades are pannono-Carpathian locals likely dispersed there in late EBA and MBA..

And you fail to notice some of these Urnfield related E-V13's have branches in Greece. Such as L241 and CTS9320. Well we don't see that for Greeks because of lack of their samples. But already there are various Greek L241+.

Aspar said:
If you read correctly what I wrote you would noticed that Vucedol Neolithic related elements survived South of Balaton lake. And E-L618 was also found in Lengyel and Sopot cultures. And E-V13 wasn't common there because it was a single man that spread his genes around EBA. Also how many samples we have south of Balaton lake? Most of the Hungarian samples are from other parts of Hungary. Let remind you that there are no E-V13 samples in EBA Bulgaria as well.
And that is one of the biggest mistakes someone can make, looking at current distribution. As for the rest, pay attention to what I said previously.

E-V13 is Cardial, Sopot and Lengyel had some Cardial influence. but they were overwhelmed numerically by the G2a. On the other hand E-V13 must have been stronger percentage wise in the main Cardial hub, Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic. So automatically it is more likely E-v13 spread from Dalmatia than any Hungarian areas. And guess what Dalmatian Cardial DID survive and it did play part in proto-Cetina formation.

Aspar said:
Any sources for Glina III being a sister culture of Cetina?

Glina III culture didn't practice cremation and was in connection with the first intrusions of the Steppe people, the Yamnaya guys. They were known for their specific knob pottery and inhumation burials. It was later replaced by migrants that brought cremation and incised pottery. So I don't know how Glina III can be related to spread of E-V13 in the Balkan but let just say that we don't agree here.

Newer material, Govedarica and others. When Rafc wrote E-V13 paper he mentioned Bubanj Hum III, Belotic Bela Ckrva, Armenochori as Cetina offshoots, and as possible vectors for E-V13 expansion. He was right of course. But actually all of these cultures while having Cetina parallels were more directly connected to Glina III.

Recent paper by archaeologist Katarina Dimitrovic, of Belotic Bela Crkva (Cetina related culture), one vector of E-V13 expansion. My translation.

The custom of using the stone cysts in Western Serbia during the EBA (occasionally later) Milutin Garasanin considers typical for the Belotic Bela Crkva group, and he connects them with the related occurrences in Glina III Schneckenberg and Somogyvar groups, where the author also finds close analogies in inventory.

Other than usage of stone cysts, closeness with the Schneckenberg group is seen also through the practice of bi-ritual burial

(cremation and inhumation, Cetina for example had ratio of 50-50)

As I said cyst burial combined with plentiful cremation is one thing that lasted from BA Cetina and related cultures to the Carpathain tumuli culture in 4th century AD... And whether you like it or not E-V13 is fundamentally and closely connected to it. It simply must be, there is no other logical explanation.

If its about Thracian R-Z93 find(s), these elements do not come from them..

TMRCA of various basal E-V13 clades and their spread around the Balkans mimics the Glina III intrusions. That goes for your own clade too. And you are never going to find any other explanation. Because Glina III were simply too dominant in those times. Nothing else can possibly explain the E-BY3880 spread and TMRCA.

Archetype0ne · Aug 22, 2020

Progon said:
Don't quote me indirectly and lump me with someone else. Do it directly if u have any issues or questions.

My apologies. If there was a more direct way to "quote" I would have done it. But I thought one post was good enough to address the "haplo-centric" circle-jerk leading to the train-wreck of arguments that followed. But I am sure you have empathy for a low IQ member

, so I should be forgiven.

PS: This is just my sick sense of humor, so don't take it personally, I like your contributions to this forum, just found that part funny :embarassed:

. And yeah I did misquote you a bit. Here ill fix it.

"I don't know, but likely yes. He can be of that low IQ group from Apricity Albanians with Y-DNA J2b2 (some of them to be honest not all), who fantasize of being some sort of elite Kurgan warriors and E-V13 are Zoomalis."

Which reminded me of:

"They are not our friend, believe me," he said, before disparaging Mexican immigrants: "They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

PPS: What is Zoomalis? Sounds like a funny word, but even urban dictionary did not help.

PPPS: I really don't want to derail this thread with childish arguments. If you still feel slighted we can reach understanding through PMs.

Aspurg · Aug 22, 2020

Archetype0ne said:
Stop this Nietzschean Master-Slave morality based discourse... as if we have any clue who was farmers and who was what, else you are no better than the "low IQ group from Apricity Albanians with Y-DNA J2b2"...

Essentially E-V13 Dalmatian Neolithic remnant survived and in EBA (Bronze Age Greece (2800–1200 BC / Early Bronze Age: 20th to 16th centuries BCE),they met the incoming J-L283's. J-L283's were saying to them "we wuz Illyrians", E-V13 met some R-Z2103's and showed the middle finger to the J-L283's saying "we wuz Thracians"

I was being figurative, ofc that Illyrian is a much later term.

Personally, even before I ever read Nietzsche. There was Andromeda TV show, and they made this species called Nitzscheans, fanatic followers of Nietzsche. And was like wow, we have kinda similar mindset.. One of them was played by a Croatian descended actor..

Now regarding some Albanian J2b2's:

On apricity there was a topic "Happy I'm Not E1b". it has been deleted since (it is from 2016).

Albanian after testing

Oct 2, 2016 - I was afraid of that haplogroup because it exists in Somalia but J2b2, R1b does not.

He added further

EV13 are the Short Swarthy Gracile, Curlyhaired Meds while J2b2 are us tall, robust, light featured tribal Ghegnians who came down through the mountains and pushed everyone else the **** aside."

Well Cetina people weren't gracile..

Archetype0ne · Aug 22, 2020

Aspurg said:
I was being figurative, ofc that Illyrian is a much later term.

Personally, even before I ever read Nietzsche. There was Andromeda TV show, and they made this species called Nitzscheans, fanatic followers of Nietzsche. And was like wow, we have kinda similar mindset.. One of them was played by a Croatian descended actor..

Now regarding some Albanian J2b2's:

On apricity there was a topic "Happy I'm Not E1b". it has been deleted since (it is from 2016).

Albanian after testing

He added further

Well Cetina people weren't gracile..

LMAO... so Apricity is like the 4chan of genetic forums? I have lurked a bit years ago, but that forum reeks of... Maybe I should visit from time to time just for the laughs.

Anyways I am glad you took my post with humor. My point was just that it is hard to retrospectively classify specific ancient clades within the context of later classical Greek terms for people, which in themselves were generalizations. It's just very anachronistic.

PS: I think the real culprits are the governments in Western Balkans not funding archaeology and genetics enough.

We have for example countless ~3-4kyo grave sites that are well known, yet not excavated or analyzed. Just one example: https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1976_num_4_1_1174

On the other hand, I don't recall the technology. But there is a system working with some sonar type of technology for identifying subterranean archaeological sites. Can not find the source, but IIRC it is expensive so maybe that is why it is not being used much in the Balkans. I know Croatia discovered some 60+ archaeological sites without digging an inch using that system. If anyone knows what it is named feel free to mention it.

NVM found one source corroborating what I said. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/archaeology/lasers-lidar-driving-revolution-archaeology/

"In another case, researchers used LiDAR to spot more than 20,000 archaeological features of a seemingly minor site in Mexico that actually had been home to an ancient city. “In 45 minutes of flying, the LiDAR team accomplished a decade’s worth of archaeological survey,” said anthropologist Christopher Fisher in a release. Bathymetric LiDAR even revealed a Roman villa in Croatia."

Aspar · Aug 22, 2020

Aspurg said:
Duude.
BECAUSE IT IS NOT FROM CETINA CULTURE
The find is from another neighbor NON-CETINA CULTURE
Is this too hard to comprehend??
Again, it's not a Cetina sample. It is Dinara/Posušje MBA culture, NOT CETINA. This Cetina J-L283 is something you or someone else made up out of thin air but it's just it: MADE UP.

Can you provide links that I4331 is from that Dinara culture? Meanwhile in the supplementary material regarding I4331 it says it's dated between 1700-1500 BCE from the location called Veliki Vanik. As for the culture it's designated only as Croatia EMBA.
According to the archaelogical finds the Cetina culture was spread:

source
The archaelogical site Veliki Vanik where I4331 was found is just few km away from the Cetina river, the core area of the Cetina culture.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound claiming Cetina didn't have any J-L283?
Furthermore for this Posusje Culture I can not even find material online however on Wikipedia I can see that it was mostly located inland in BIH between Gruda, Trebinje and Stolac and not on the coastal Croatia where I4331 was found so I think you probably made this up.

Aspurg said:
There is Etruscan connection. There is some archaeological evidence to suggest Etruscans came to Italy from the Northern Balkans. I do not deny in any way the possibility that some E-V13 clades actually preserved the Etruscan language. I believe it came from either them or the J-L283, or some G2a's in the area.. Surely not the R-L51's..
Proto-Etruscans (Villanova) were clearly connected to some very cultures I thought might be related to some Z5018 clades. And this Etruscan J-L283 find is an indication these links are not accidental..

Cetina Culture is deemed to have preserved the local non Indo-European elements and as such the non Indo-European language as well. This goes well with the fact that the Etruscan was non Indo-European language. Now we have a clear connection with the Etruscan sample closely related to I4331 sample in EBA/MBA Croatia.

Aspurg said:
I believe clades such as S7461 are locals in Bulgaria and related to Philistines because of their strength in the Middle East. River Strymon, a Thracian name used to be called Palaistinos. E-S7461 are IMO likely proto-Philistines or among them. That Getae find is S7461-. This clade has huge diversity in Bulgaria. MBA diversity.
I think these represent some older E-V13 population present in MBA Bulgaria.

As you say MBA diversity, so not an EBA one. Plus the Philistines migrated in LBA.

Aspurg said:
You are taking these sporadic finds too literally. You see few Greek non-E-V13 and you assume there was no E-V13 in Greeks. I take both aDNA and modern diversity equally in consideration.

There are no E-V13 clades in ancient Greeks up to date.

Aspurg said:
E-Y37092
Greek YF67985
Also another candidate Greek from Peloponnese. PH1246+ and not connected to YF67985 by STR's.

It's ridiculous if you believe that the Dorians could have brought only that clade in Greece and not the J-L283 one. Generally it's very telling that E-V13 wasn't much present among the Greeks, you have the Roman paper where E-V13 appears only in late antiquity but with the new samples coming from Greeks there aren't any rumors that E-V13 will appear there.

Aspurg said:
Cetina related burials date to EHIII, Peloponnese 2200 BC, around 500 years earlier than another culture where J-L283 was found.

Can you provide source for your claims?

Aspurg said:
There can't be directly Cetina related artifacts to Dorians because Cetina ended in Early MBA.

Here source, ctrl + f and type Cetina. There are quite a lot of connections for me to post all of them here.
https://aegeobalkanprehistory.kreas...-bc-the-unfolding-of-the-mediterranean-world/

Aspurg said:
And they are generally wrong. Because they criticize to fit into their own fancy theories. But for example looking at I2a tree estimates are correct as they mimi Slavic migrations. In many cases for example some subclades have mutated more so that creates some issues for TMRCA.

Who says that, you?
Generally even YFULL says that the TMRCA is taken as the middle point of the oldest and the youngest branches which again it's not the final date. There is no perfectly accurate TMRCA prediction, neither with SNPs nor STRs.

J-L283 have nothing to do with Urnfield. Neither do any E-V13 have anything to do with Urnfield in terms of origins from Central Europe. Aren't there enough BB samples? No E-V13.. Urnfielders were mostly R1b-L51. Any "Urnfield" E-V13's were some locals from Pannonian basin that were assimilated, some were likely pushed. Urnfielders were genetically Central/Northern European. As various results show, Pannonian MBA locals were not. Unless one considers they too shaped Urnfield culture in various ways..
Most E-V13 clades are pannono-Carpathian locals likely dispersed there in late EBA and MBA..
And you fail to notice some of these Urnfield related E-V13's have branches in Greece. Such as L241 and CTS9320. Well we don't see that for Greeks because of lack of their samples. But already there are various Greek L241+.

R-L51 for western Urnfield zone yes, NOT for the Eastern one. Or how do you think most J-L283 and E-V13 clades got to Central and Western Europe when up to date there are no any Bell Beaker or Corded-Ware samples positive for those haplogroups?
I think that you fail to realize that Urnfield related branches spread from North to South. Ever since the Neolithic there wasn't any significant South to North migration and invasion. It was always North to South ever since.

Aspurg said:
E-V13 is Cardial, Sopot and Lengyel had some Cardial influence. but they were overwhelmed numerically by the G2a. On the other hand E-V13 must have been stronger percentage wise in the main Cardial hub, Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic. So automatically it is more likely E-v13 spread from Dalmatia than any Hungarian areas. And guess what Dalmatian Cardial DID survive and it did play part in proto-Cetina formation.

Again you are just speculating...

Aspurg said:
Newer material, Govedarica and others. When Rafc wrote E-V13 paper he mentioned Bubanj Hum III, Belotic Bela Ckrva, Armenochori as Cetina offshoots, and as possible vectors for E-V13 expansion. He was right of course. But actually all of these cultures while having Cetina parallels were more directly connected to Glina III.
Recent paper by archaeologist Katarina Dimitrovic, of Belotic Bela Crkva (Cetina related culture), one vector of E-V13 expansion. My translation.
(cremation and inhumation, Cetina for example had ratio of 50-50)
As I said cyst burial combined with plentiful cremation is one thing that lasted from BA Cetina and related cultures to the Carpathain tumuli culture in 4th century AD... And whether you like it or not E-V13 is fundamentally and closely connected to it. It simply must be, there is no other logical explanation.
If its about Thracian R-Z93 find(s), these elements do not come from them..
TMRCA of various basal E-V13 clades and their spread around the Balkans mimics the Glina III intrusions. That goes for your own clade too. And you are never going to find any other explanation. Because Glina III were simply too dominant in those times. Nothing else can possibly explain the E-BY3880 spread and TMRCA.

Again, as you didn't provide source I think that you made up that Cetina and Glina III Schneckenberg were sister cultures.
Both Cetina and Belotic Crkva received a new element coming from direction of the Carpathian Basin. This can be seen in the cremation burials and also the incised pottery style. The old elements of Glina III Schneckenberg were assimilated although some elements continued living into the new population. Plus Belotic Crkva is not in Bulgaria so no connection to EBA Bulgaria. And yes, Morava-Vardar valley was important for the spread of E-V13 but also the lower Danube as well however this happened in the MBA. Although I never said that there couldn't be any E-V13 clades in EBA Bulgaria and among the Mycenaeans and the Anatolians but they were miniscule. What I said is MOST!

torzio · Aug 22, 2020

Archetype0ne said:
(My friend when? were "Illyria/Illyrian" and "Thrace / Thracian" first mentioned as terms? How old is L283 and V13? When you answer those questions, check these https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anachronism / https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/asynchronous .) I am sure those words are going to be of use for you.

Facts we have is that Halstatt culture ( in Noricum = east austria ) is a mix of Celtic and "Illyrian"....

"Illyrians" went as far south as modern Montenegro.

Taulantii are one of the three major Dardani tribes (modern kosovo )

Modern north Albania is called Nova Epirus in Roman times and south of this Epirus Vetus ( old Epirus )

There are no Illyrians............it is a geographical term for a people in an area ...............same as Scandinavia means, Danes, Swedes and Norwegians

Aspurg · Aug 22, 2020

Aspar said:
Can you provide links that I4331 is from that Dinara culture?

Aspar said:
Furthermore for this Posusje Culture I can not even find material online however on Wikipedia

Find it yourself ..

Also pay more attention to details which you obviously don't..

Aspar said:
I can see that it was mostly located inland in BIH between Gruda, Trebinje and Stolac and not on the coastal Croatia where I4331 was found so I think you probably made this up.

I identified it and I spoke about it about it long time ago, authors spoke and quoted other authors. I won't repeat myself 10 times. Use the search engine..

Plus in an article about Paleo-Balkan lines on Serbian DNA project, whose board includes professional archaeologists it is listed as Posušje culture find btw so they obviously accepted my own original research because ultimately it is what the authors say without saying it.. But ofc it takes a hawk-eye to notice it.

Aspar said:
Cetina Culture is deemed to have preserved the local non Indo-European elements and as such the non Indo-European language as well. This goes well with the fact that the Etruscan was non Indo-European language. Now we have a clear connection with the Etruscan sample closely related to I4331 sample in EBA/MBA Croatia.

Yes it is. This is due to the strong Neolithic element, Cardial element. And obviously J-L283 has nothing to do with that. E-L618 does..

Now the questin ios what was the Etruscan language, EEF or Anatolian BA descended? In the latter case it would have been preserved by the J-L283 obviously, in former case by G2a and E-L618..

So only if Etruscan came from Anatolia it can be connected to J-L283..

Plus as Etruscans had genetic Steppe Admixture, it's a really chaotic situation. I mean obviously they had IE influence but they weren't IE speaking. Half of Balkans could have spoken Etruscan in MBA...

Aspar said:
As you say MBA diversity, so not an EBA one. Plus the Philistines migrated in LBA.

Because they were pushed from there in LBA, by the others or just migrated. So obviously they lived around there in MBA... In LBA they simply dissapeared as a group in the Balkans.

Aspar said:
Who says that, you?
Generally even YFULL says that the TMRCA is taken as the middle point of the oldest and the youngest branches which again it's not the final date. There is no perfectly accurate TMRCA prediction, neither with SNPs nor STRs.

ofc, but my point is that people are often subjective when it comes to criticism of this system, make up something better.

Aspar said:
R-L51 for western Urnfield zone yes, NOT for the Eastern one.

Why not?? All of Urnfield.. No hard evidence to the contrary I'm afraid.. E-V13 began expanding from Central Europe?? Most people would laugh at such proposal and they would be correct I guess..

Aspar said:
Or how do you think most J-L283 and E-V13 clades got to Central and Western Europe when up to date there are no any Bell Beaker or Corded-Ware samples positive for those haplogroups?

Most of J-L283 and E-V13 got into Central-Western Europe the good 'ol way: ROMAN LEGIONARIES. So the assumption is in pre-Roman times V13 % was negligible or lower. You see some Portuguese clades, basal under Z5017, their TMRCA only goes to 2000 ybp, one is connected with German. Obvious Roman legionaries or something related.

But many clades had other, older paths.. Those with Iron Age and older links between themselves (Westerners).. Only that way you ensure they aren't legionaries.

J-L283 per Trojet migrated from N.Caucasus with IE population from the Steppe.

Or it came with the Anatolian Bronze Age people (proto-Nuragics ??) to Sardinia from where it spread to the Balkans, possibly with BB's..

J-L283 in any case is not native in the Balkans, nor is it Neolithic.

Evidence suggests Etruscan was related to Rhaetian therefore likely EEF, so L-L283 is not originally Etruscan. And E-V13 potentially Etruscan/Pelasgian. There were G2a's too in the area as attested by multiple aDNA finds of EEF clades in Pannonian basin..

They (L283) might have been of course Nuragic speakers.. :grin:

Aspar said:
The archaelogical site Veliki Vanik where I4331 was found is just few km away from the Cetina river, the core area of the Cetina culture.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound claiming Cetina didn't have any J-L283?

They were designated as being totally different by origin and material culture.. Posušje culture lacked btw any Neolithic element, because it is not related to any Dalmatian Neolithic element. Despite close proximity their contacts were almost non-existent.

Genetic differences mattered in those days. Just as Yamnaya were totally different to their Cucuteni neighbors. And we have many other examples..

They ofc should have had few J-L283's as one ingredient in proto Cetina was Middle Adriatic Ljubljana, which were EEF's mixed up with some Ljubljana proper guys (likely J-L283)..

The likely true origin point for J-L283 was Ljubljana, an older culture, Posušje is just a younger side-group represented by J-Y15058 or J-Z38240..

Aspar said:
I think that you fail to realize that Urnfield related branches spread from North to South. Ever since the Neolithic there wasn't any significant South to North migration and invasion. It was always North to South ever since.

I'm not talking of any mass migration here, just E-Z1057 giving one of his sons to nomadic Yamnaya guys. Who DID visit East Herzegovina in a pre proto-Cetina phase and left their own marks on it..

Aspar said:
Again you are just speculating...

If I do, I only do it based on facts, in this case be it genetic, archaeological etc. Also an E-M35 admin wrote an article about E-V13 connecting it with Cetina culture. I agreed with it, and I still do, as do most knowledgeable people on the topic that I know.

Aspar said:
Both Cetina and Belotic Crkva received a new element coming from direction of the Carpathian Basin. This can be seen in the cremation burials and also the incised pottery style. The old elements of Glina III Schneckenberg were assimilated although some elements continued living into the new population. Plus Belotic Crkva is not in Bulgaria so no connection to EBA Bulgaria. And yes, Morava-Vardar valley was important for the spread of E-V13 but also the lower Danube as well however this happened in the MBA.

Belotic Bela Crkva wasn't, true, Bubanj Hum III was and it bordered Buglaria. Not much was happening in MBA Bulgaria.

Trojet · Aug 22, 2020

Aspurg said:
Now the questin ios what was the Etruscan language, EEF or Anatolian BA descended? In the latter case it would have been preserved by the J-L283 obviously, in former case by G2a and E-L618..

So only if Etruscan came from Anatolia it can be connected to J-L283..

Sorry for the off topic, but how can J-L283 be "connected" to Bronze Age Anatolia when it was already in North Serbia since Early Bronze Age (~4000 ybp)? Any BA Anatolian J-L283? If it came via Anatolia, it should've come in the Neolithic-Chalcholithic which there is no evidence, nor is it being supported by its TMRCA. This isn't supported by the Autosomals of the J-L283 finds either. LBA Nuragic samples were predominantly EEF with a little Steppe, while I4331 from MBA Croatia was predominantly EEF + 30% Steppe and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer.

Aspar is right. You're all over the place, LMAO.

On the other hand, I don't claim it definitely came from the Steppe IE migrations. But considering we have a J-L283* in North Caucasus dated ~1900 BC (which btw had crossed the Caucasus mountains), and the (north) Balkan finds, the most plausible route is north of Black Sea sometime between 6000 to 4000 ybp.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what me, you, or anyone else thinks. I believe this will finally be settled with future aDNA. I'm just stating what I see as most plausible, and that "Bronze Age Anatolia" doesn't currently add up. There was a time in the past when I thought it came via Neolithic Anatolia when we didn't have any ancient DNA..

Aspurg · Aug 22, 2020

Trojet said:
Sorry for the off topic, but how can J-L283 be "connected" to Bronze Age Anatolia when it was already in North Serbia since Early Bronze Age (~4000 ybp)? If it came via Anatolia, it should've come in the Neolithic which there is no evidence of. This isn't supported by the Autosomals of the J-L283 finds either. LBA Nuragic samples were predominantly EEF with a little Steppe, while I4331 from MBA Croatia was predominantly EEF + 30% Steppe and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer.

You are taking current finds too much for granted.. As most people do.. Sardinian Nuragics belong to a stray clade don't they?? And there is another Sardinian clade with high Sardinian TMRCA??

Anatolian BA migration would have happened before the IE incursions or around the same time as these. And we know Italians have heavy J2a presence, as do Balkan regions. It's obviously due to this movement.

Trojet said:
Aspar is right. You're all over the place, LMAO.

Am I? He is totally wrong and I am quite right which was confirmed few days ago by this leaked information which indicates E-V13 is more Thracian than Illyrian or Greek. Aspar hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.. You mentioned N.Serbian sample?? Like "Dalmatian" it doesn't tell much. Why don't you explain to us something about this sample.. What was the culture, what were the origins and affinities of this culture, the spread..

Because I do read actually books instead of wikipedia articles..

Besides Aspar is not your "friend", is he LOL.. By trying to connect Veliki Vanik find with Cetina culture he was trying to use the Neolithic element in Cetina to prove J-L283 were proto-Etruscans who spoke Etruscan. In this instance it is his own "We E-V13 wuz BB IE's" and "Ze wuz Pelasgians".

In effect he was just digging grave for his own thesis as J-L283 is not EEF whose language Etruscans likely spoke.

Trojet said:
On the other hand, I don't claim it definitely came from the Steppe IE migrations. But considering we have a J-L283* in North Caucasus dated ~1900 BC (which btw had crossed the Caucasus mountains), and the Balkan finds, the most plausible route is north of Black Sea sometime between 6000 to 4000 ybp.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what me, you, or anyone else thinks. I believe this will finally be settled with future aDNA. I'm just stating what I see as most plausible. There was a time in the past when I thought it came via Neolithic Anatolia when we had aDNA..

I agree that Northern route is more likely. And once that N.Serbian sample comes into play.. He might give more insights.

Archetype0ne · Aug 22, 2020

Aspurg said:
Find it yourself ..

Bro if you state a position. And someone asks you a source. The burden of proof is on you. You say you have read a bunch of sources from books, and you have connection to "scientists" from Porekllo. At least be decent and share your sources and defend your position. It is a bit condescending to Aspar the way you retort to him asking questions by "Find it yourself".

Now the questin ios what was the Etruscan language, EEF or Anatolian BA descended? In the latter case it would have been preserved by the J-L283 obviously, in former case by G2a and E-L618..

Ok. But why? I originally favored an Anatolian route for L283 to Balkans, but after seeing all evidence against such a position, of course I did not dispute the evidence, I just changed my opinion/hypothesis.

So only if Etruscan came from Anatolia (A) it can be connected to J-L283(B)..
Again why? What gives? Why does A lead to B?

Plus as Etruscans had genetic Steppe Admixture (A), it's a really chaotic situation. I mean obviously they had IE influence but they weren't IE speaking. Half of Balkans could have spoken Etruscan in MBA (B)...

Hard to follow conclusion based on premise? How did A lead to B?

J-L283 per Trojet migrated from N.Caucasus with IE population from the Steppe.

Or it came with the Anatolian Bronze Age people (1) (proto-Nuragics ??) to Sardinia (2) from where it spread to the Balkans (3), possibly with BB's..

You do realize that both the ancient Croatia Sample and the unconfirmed Mokrin Sample predate Nuragic right? If so don't you think the 1-2-3 connection you propose is less likely than 1-3-2? I mean... I am just following your logic in accordance with the dates of the samples. Because I do not even agree with step 1 at this point, despite it being my favored starting point two years ago, when I had no clue on the evidence.

Evidence suggests Etruscan was related to Rhaetian therefore likely EEF, so L-L283 is not originally Etruscan. And E-V13 potentially Etruscan/Pelasgian. There were G2a's too in the area as attested by multiple aDNA finds of EEF clades in Pannonian basin..

I am personally not convinced by the above hypothesis. But still...
On the other hand, are you suggesting E-V13 was Pelasgian and Etruscan? Never heard such hypothesis. Would love to hear more from you.

They (L283) might have been of course Nuragic speakers.. :grin:

Again an instance of anachronism mate. L283 is older in the Balkans than the Nuragic in Sardiana. So did they invent a time machine, take a plane to the Balkans and give their language to their ("potential", / no idea about clade relation) forefathers?

At this point I am afraid I am being trolled.

Trojet · Aug 22, 2020

Aspurg said:
You are taking current finds too much for granted.. As most people do.. Sardinian Nuragics belong to a stray clade don't they?? And there is another Sardinian clade with high Sardinian TMRCA??
Anatolian BA migration would have happened before the IE incursions or around the same time as these. And we know Italians have heavy J2a presence, as do Balkan regions. It's obviously due to this movement.

J2a and J2b split some ~30 000 ybp. Furthermore, there is J2a in BA Anatolia, BA south Balkans, and BA south Italy, while J2b-L283 is absent from all those places. So the former can clearly be connected to BA Anatolian movements, but not the latter.

Aspurg said:
Am I? He is totally wrong and I am quite right which was confirmed few days ago by this leaked information which indicates E-V13 is more Thracian than Illyrian or Greek. Aspar hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.. You mentioned N.Serbian sample?? Like "Dalmatian" it doesn't tell much. Why don't you explain to us something about this sample.. What was the culture, what were the origins and affinities of this culture, the spread..
Because I do read actually books instead of wikipedia articles..
Besides Aspar is not your "friend", is he LOL.. By trying to connect Veliki Vanik find with Cetina culture he was trying to use the Neolithic element in Cetina to prove J-L283 were proto-Etruscans who spoke Etruscan. In this instance it is his own "We E-V13 wuz BB IE's" and "Ze wuz Pelasgians". In effect he was just digging grave for his own thesis as J-L283 is not EEF whose language Etruscans likely spoke.

Ah, I see. So it seems some of you are inspired by childish games "my haplogrup is better than yours"

Well, not me. Again, I state things as I see them.

Aspurg said:
I agree that Northern route is more likely. And once that N.Serbian sample comes into play.. He might give more insights.

That's all I'm saying, and that there is no "connection" to BA Anatolia. I'm glad you agree with me

Hawk · Aug 22, 2020

I hope they publish large scale results from Balkans and we close this cases.

For your informations, British members from E-M35 project are refusing the possibility from Roman soldiers. Somehow magically only E-V13 is being end up as Roman soldier, Arvanite, Vlach all over the place.

Aspurg · Aug 22, 2020

Archetype0ne said:
Bro if you state a position. And someone asks you a source. The burden of proof is on you. You say you have read a bunch of sources from books, and you have connection to "scientists" from Porekllo. At least be decent and share your sources and defend your position. It is a bit condescending to Aspar the way you retort to him asking questions by "Find it yourself".

He basically insulted me by claiming I made up this information. I will not give pleasure to someone trolling my intellectual property (which substantiated original research is) by justifying myself to him.

Poreklo is registered legally. Has its statute and has tested 6000-7000 families.

I posted the relevant info in my very first post on Eupedia. That's not hard to find..

About J-L283.. There is still plenty of mystery. And you are taking the age of finds too literally again.. Nuragics, it kinda doesn't make sense that J-L283 is Steppe Yamnaya influence in Nuragics does it?? :grin: If so, why didn't they have heavy R-M269 influence??

Aspar · Aug 22, 2020

Aspurg said:
Am I? He is totally wrong and I am quite right which was confirmed few days ago by this leaked information which indicates E-V13 is more Thracian than Illyrian or Greek. Aspar hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.. You mentioned N.Serbian sample?? Like "Dalmatian" it doesn't tell much. Why don't you explain to us something about this sample.. What was the culture, what were the origins and affinities of this culture, the spread..
Because I do read actually books instead of wikipedia articles..
Besides Aspar is not your "friend", is he LOL.. By trying to connect Veliki Vanik find with Cetina culture he was trying to use the Neolithic element in Cetina to prove J-L283 were proto-Etruscans who spoke Etruscan. In this instance it is his own "We E-V13 wuz BB IE's" and "Ze wuz Pelasgians". In effect he was just digging grave for his own thesis as J-L283 is not EEF whose language Etruscans likely spoke.

It's really hard for someone to follow your thoughts. A minute ago you was claiming that E-V13 was in EBA Bulgaria where Reich and his team think the genesis of the Mycenaeans happened now you claim something else. The Thracians are clearly not much related to those EBA Bulgarians. Their language was clearly very different than the Greek and was probably brought later from the North so if you believe that E-V13 was among those who brought the Thracian language I don't know how you would make parallel with EBA Bulgarians. I also believe sometime ago I had discussion with you claiming the Dorians were mostly E-V13 accusing me that I dislike Greeks and that's why I believe that E-V13 wasn't much present among the ancient Greeks. Did I ever say that E-V13 is more Greek or Illyrian than Thracian?
You really are all over the place...
As for the rest I will not bother to comment what I have never claimed. It's your claim of something you believe that I believe...

Aspurg · Aug 22, 2020

Aspar said:
It's really hard for someone to follow your thoughts. A minute ago you was claiming that E-V13 was in EBA Bulgaria where Reich and his team think the genesis of the Mycenaeans happened now you claim something else. The Thracians are clearly not much related to those EBA Bulgarians. Their language was clearly very different than the Greek and was probably brought later from the North so if you believe that E-V13 was among those who brought the Thracian language I don't know how you would make parallel with EBA Bulgarians. I also believe sometime ago I had discussion with you claiming the Dorians were mostly E-V13 accusing me that I dislike Greeks and that's why I believe that E-V13 wasn't much present among the ancient Greeks. Did I ever say that E-V13 is more Greek or Illyrian than Thracian?

I claim E-V13 was in EBA Bulgaria, EBA Serbia, EBA Greece, EBA Albania connected to Glina III and few other movements which occurred 4000 ybp.. These are usually some older less common clades. I don't claim these people were Thracians, Greeks or Illyrians and chances are most of them were not.

My EBA is late EBA, 4000 ybp. Not 4500-5000 EBA of those Bulgarian samples tested.

I claim E-V13 belong to some older strata of various sorts as indicated by E-V13 TMRCA. This includes known and plenty of unknown affinities.

I claim E-V13 brought Thracian language in the case Thracian arrived late (EIA/LBA), and ofc if Thracian was old. But I claim that only for select few lineages such as most E-CTS9320's, some FGC11450 etc.. I proposed long time ago proto-Thracians (or significant part of them) could have been E-CTS9320 + R-Z93. I literally claim E-CTS9320 expanded from the Urnfield Thracian Gava culture. Initially I though Basarabi was more likely but while some could have had such affinity that culture was little bit later. Gava-Holigrady is a better fit because of some early migrations to the Balkans etc.

It is what some Russian archaeologists claim for Thracians: that they were EIA/LBA arrivals, as were the Illyrians per many. I generally am more inclined towards such views. And that both Illyrians and Thracians pasted themselves over the earlier Phillistine and other strata. In any case Pannonian Illyrians were clearly this newer strata.

I still claim all carriers of E-Z16659 were likely speaking originally Dorian Greek 3600 ybp.. Regardless what their IA affinity was.

There are some Villanovan connections to the Balkans, so I do not exclude the possibility of such Etruscan/Pelasgian enclaves existing at all. I learned of that not long ago, but that has to be taken into consideration. Other than that I claim the same things I claimed year or two years ago. You will find I am extremely conservative when it comes to my "claims".

It is you misinterpreting my claims that they pertain to "E-V13". They don't. Your E-V13 for me is very much narrowed down.

Aspar said:
You really are all over the place...

I'll leave the "silent majority" to judge that. Rather I would say that someone speaking with emotions and not facts is the one all over the place. E-V13 was by far the strongest Thracian haplogroup going by the current aDNA evidence.. I understand why Albanians have issues with that, but you?

Aspar said:
As for the rest I will not bother to comment what I have never claimed. It's your claim of something you believe that I believe...

You clearly connected "non-IE" Cetina to J-L283 and implied Etruscan J-L283 find is in full line with it. Logical conclusion is that you believe that proto-Etruscans were J-L283. But again you read just the wikipedian article which quotes one opinion about Cetina's non-IE's, there are other opposite opinions supporting an overwhelming IE factor in this culture..

Hawk · Aug 22, 2020

Aspurg, why did u put the nickname as Zor in poreklo?

Aspurg · Aug 22, 2020

Progon said:
Aspurg, why did u put the nickname as Zor in poreklo?

Not easy to guess.. Old Japanese/American anime..
Zor and Zor.

Hawk · Aug 22, 2020

Hawk · Aug 23, 2020

Aspurg will not like this.

Metal objects are rare in the Svilengrad pit complex. Among them figures an interesting iron instrument classified as a trunnion axe. Its shape allows its identification asa chisel of type III 1 C (Wesse). The distribution of this type is dated the periodbetween the eleventh and seventh/sixth century BC and encompasses the westernBalkans and the Carpathian basin; single finds are known from Slovenia and MiddleDnepr region.33 The finds of iron trunnion axes/chisels in Bulgarian territory arelimited and mainly without clear provenance. Most of them were found in NorthBulgaria. Only three samples are known south of the Haemus Mountains: fromOmarchevo, Ada tepe and Dositeevo.34 The Svilengrad find is the southernmost. Itspresence here is not unexpected as long as the cultural contacts from Asia Minorthrough the Balkans westwards were conducted not only by sea but also by land.35

https://www.academia.edu/588112/Ritual_Pit_Complexes_in_Iron_Age_Thrace_The_Case_Study_of_Svilengrad

Where did E-V13 originate ?

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