Migration from the Steppe to Anatolia was 6000-5000 ybp (4000-3000 BC)

R1b is not found in perceptible percentages there nowadays and no ancient samples from there are provided. It's a matter of faith so. Moreover when reliying in archaeology there are no Yamnayan migration registered to CW and such phantom migration would provide there R1a. You may now perceive the flawness of the steppe theory.

Specific parts of the steppe theory of the "Indo-European" languages may be tweaked in the future, but I don't know of any reputable scholar who denies that many of the European "Indo-European" languages reached Europe from the steppe along with a migration of people. Krause and Haak don't seem to deny it, and neither do Renfrew or even Ivanova, for that matter.

The only changes will have to do with the earliest stage of proto-Indo-European, perhaps the direction from which Greek arrived, and the exact migration path to India, nothing more.
 
Specific parts of the steppe theory of the "Indo-European" languages may be tweaked in the future, but I don't know of any reputable scholar who denies that many of the European "Indo-European" languages reached Europe from the steppe along with a migration of people. Krause and Haak don't seem to deny it, and neither do Renfrew or even Ivanova, for that matter.

The only changes will have to do with the earliest stage of proto-Indo-European, perhaps the direction from which Greek arrived, and the exact migration path to India, nothing more.

I know what are thinking the mainstream academics with that issue, and even I addered such theory thinking that the experts in that were doing a good job as it is to be expected (and chariots helped for such belief), but after receiving several slaps from the ancient DNA results, and reviewing again the IE fauna and flora, the steppes now seem to me a dry source, just again, like an evil spell, mainstream Humanistics theories turn to be 100% flawed and mistaken. Of course I don't think I have special aptitudes to unmask mud theories, the problem is that I'm usualy so free (as demanded by science) that sometimes I question the queen bee; of course a bad bussiness with so many worker bees buzzing everywhere around (not you). Well, let's see if my logics are yet working fine or if archaeology / linguistics fit better for those living in Wonderland, it's just a question of time to know the answer.
 
concerning Y R1a R1b the problem is consideable changes certainly occurred between 3000 and our era in Eurasia, so we cannot rely only on densities of today, as everybody knows.
CWC R1a could have stayed at first rather in northern lands compared to southern Pontic steppes (CWC were on the mergins concerning metals and seemed copying pops more evolved technically on the matter; the most typical CWC people physically speaking were in N-E Germany, not in Austria nor in the southern Ukraina; I have no ready to use stable theory to date but I think we have to search for R1b somewhere in eastern-southeastern Europe at some stage of History, come there from Anatolia or southern Pontic Steppes (rather this late case); it's what the comparisons of R1b SNPs distribution seems telling me. I previously gave my bet to an eastern Caspian origin, today I doubt; except some apparently rare deadend R1b in LN Iberia, the Central Europe R1b as in Vatya seem arrived from East Carpathians; could have R1b been already present among late Tripolye??? We know Eastern-Central European demic input appeared later in the farther eastern Steppes (so many moves on every direction) what doesn't discard Iranian cultural input too. Yamnaya in CWC is a shared auDNA (so frmalesplayed their role here), and this can occur also if R1a and some of the R1b tribes had rovered long times in Steppes, without the patriarchal clans of Yamnaya would have played a role among CWC; all the way R1b Yamna is kind of "lost" clade. Catacomb could have played an heavier role in IE spread into East steppes according to Kozintsev.
 
Specific parts of the steppe theory of the "Indo-European" languages may be tweaked in the future, but I don't know of any reputable scholar who denies that many of the European "Indo-European" languages reached Europe from the steppe along with a migration of people. Krause and Haak don't seem to deny it, and neither do Renfrew or even Ivanova, for that matter.

As I see it, the reason Corded Ware and its eastern predecessors are so firmly on the Indo-European horizon is because they contributed a lot of ancestry to present day Europeans. The possibility of Indo-European languages spreading without major gene flow as in the case of Tyrsenian languages is never taken into account for the obvious reasons.

In the latter case there could be no credible attempt to discern between a spread in the Pontic steppe, a naval route across the Black Sea or even the Mediterranean and the West Asian route over the Bosporus.
 
Last edited:
R1b folks did not migrate to Central and Western Europe from Pontic steppe but R1a surely did.
I had a rapid look to the R1a migration trails, that fits little bit better to the massive migration from the Steppes 4800-3000 years ago mentioned by J. Krause but i's not the case with R1b migration history.
All R1a mutations found specificaly in Western Europe like R1a-L664 (age around 4500 y) appeared after the supposed steppes migration starting 4800 years ago. This is compatible but as I said before it's not the case of the R1b-L51 mutation, found only in Western Europe aDNA, which is around 6000 years old much before the steppes migration.
 
Last edited:
Just to be clear: when I speak or the females role in CWC, I don't insist on their moves to Western Europe but on the autosomes shared by CWC (male OR female) and Yamna people: Steppes origin, whatever the Y lineages! but "steppe" here doesn't signify "IE" at the date of sharing: it could have been before IE Chalco/BA but maybe also after;
 
As I see it, the reason Corded Ware and its eastern predecessors are so firmly on the Indo-European horizon is because they contributed a lot of ancestry to present day Europeans. The possibility of Indo-European languages spreading without major gene flow as in the case of Tyrsenian languages is never taken into account for the obvious reasons.

In the latter case there could be no credible attempt to discern between a spread in the Pontic steppe, a naval route across the Black Sea or even the Mediterranean and the West Asian route over the Bosporus.


I deliberately didn't address the issue of the size of the migration when I carefully said:

"I don't know of any reputable scholar who denies that many of the European "Indo-European" languages reached Europe from the steppe along with a migration of people. "

I've been on record for a long time as believing that we have very unreliable data as to population levels in Europe prior to the "arrival" of the "Indo-Europeans". Also, while we have a trail of kurgans leading into Europe from the steppe I've never seen any reliable analysis of how many people from the steppe they might actually represent. It's also important to realize that the trail abruptly stops approximately in the middle of the Hungarian plain. Nor has anyone explained to me how there could have been such massive growth in population levels in the steppe, which the terrain and the subsistence strategies wouldn't warrant, in my opinion. It's only when you get to populations such as Corded Ware, who were not on the steppe, and did practice farming as well as herding that you could get that kind of population growth.

It has seemed to me for a long time that a lot of the movement into Europe was actually of "Indo-Europeanized" forest steppe and forest people, some of them carrying a lot of WHG. That's why I think the "Yamnaya" numbers in certain groups may be inflated, not to mention later population movements that might have inflated such numbers, as in the case of the Finns.

That doesn't change the fact that the Balto-Slavic languages, and perhaps Germanic, can be traced to the steppe, and Celtic and Italic as well.

Whether the "homeland" of proto-Indo-European languages is actually in the Armenian highlands, but then moved to the steppe at least for the "European" languages, leaving the "Anatolian" languages like Hittite behind is another issue entirely. I think that's definitely a possibility, if not a probability. From what I can tell, even the terrain, as well as the flora and fauna, doesn't disqualify it, and we definitely have a movement of the "CHG" component from south to north.

@Moesan,
There is definitely R1b of the right variety in southeastern Europe, i.e. Z2103, which we find in eastern Yamnaya. The problem is that there's very little L11+ and the little that exists can be explained by historical era migrations. That leads to the most vexing problem, which is where were the L11+ people hiding. If we ever get some genomes from the western steppe that might provide us with some answers. Also, once the Balkan farmer paper is published, and if they tested samples up to and including Tripolye, then we'll know if they might have absorbed some R1b there. Or, we may discover that the L11+ people actually took a more northern route.

People who think all of this is settled are mistaken, imo.
 
So I see this thread and I think "Oh man I need to read this right away. How did I miss it?" Then, literally, the first post I jump to is Moesan talking about his small penis and alcoholism. Lol.

I'll continue reading and no doubt have something to say.

@Moesan I struggle with booze too. Keep fighting. And there's nothing you can do about your penis. Dont dwell on it.
 
Maykop = North Caucasus.

But North Caucasians are actually Near Eastern (Iranian Plateau) in origin with some extra EHG ancestry from the Steppes. Didn't you hear about the Uruk migration from Irani into the Caucasus? If you compare Iranian Leyla-Tepe (original Uruk?) with Maykop culture you will find huge similarities. Maykop was basically Middle Eastern / NorthWest ASIAN in nature. The thing is that Maykop was a little bit shifted toward the Steppes, because of some EHG geneflow from the neighboring Steppes


CHG admixture is a West ASIAN admixture.

Yamnaya was Indo-Europized by R1b West Asians from the Armenian/Iranian Plateau. Second stage PIE Yamnaya folks were actually for a HUGE part West Asian in their DNA.

A question:
Wiki says Uruk was a certain cultural development of lower Mesopotamia and not a typical Iranian or Armenian phenomenon, spite influences over all around; by the way close cultures of same nature can influence one another without too big changes in pop. Have you more data proving it found birth in Iran region more specifically? Just to complete my poor knowledge
 
I ... and we definitely have a movement of the "CHG" component from south to north.

Yes. And when and who were the people that migrated north and took that CHG?

...southeastern Europe, i.e. Z2103, which we find in eastern Yamnaya.
Yes,but those we have archeological traces and path...and none for the other. right?
 
@Moesan,
There is definitely R1b of the right variety in southeastern Europe, i.e. Z2103, which we find in eastern Yamnaya. The problem is that there's very little L11+ and the little that exists can be explained by historical era migrations. That leads to the most vexing problem, which is where were the L11+ people hiding. If we ever get some genomes from the western steppe that might provide us with some answers. Also, once the Balkan farmer paper is published, and if they tested samples up to and including Tripolye, then we'll know if they might have absorbed some R1b there. Or, we may discover that the L11+ people actually took a more northern route.

People who think all of this is settled are mistaken, imo.

Thanks for taking the pain to answer my "generalistic" posts!
I have had time to study again the scarce distribution of L51 and L11 ; I 'll try to make my point after having looked acutely to my maps; I can tell you at first sight, L11 is very spotty, but show some hospots (compared to others, not big %s of course) in N-E Poland/W-Regions of Baltic states and in front of those, in S-E central Sweden, without speaking of N-E Germany E-Denmark ( a bit less dense); these L11 could be for an heavy part the "nacestors of U106; I repeat interpretation of a lone SNP as L51 is misliding; it's the chain which has to be looked at, knowing it's acrobatic because in lands were global R1b absolute % is light, drift of upstream SNPs can occur very easily in every direction; L51 seems more western but a spot appears too in C-S Poland. I'll try to do better next time.
 
Just speaking about kurgans which are tumuli too; later cultures reproduce the tumuli system: imitation or new waves, elites or more, stayed with the old system? surely naive question...
 
Well, try to do a hole on earth and you will have a kurgan... ;) no matter where you live. By that also there are kurgans in pre-Columbine America, just wiki 'list of burial mounds in the United States' to look to some. By luck Yamnayists are not linking them to IE white charioters...
 
Well, try to do a hole on earth and you will have a kurgan... ;) no matter where you live. By that also there are kurgans in pre-Columbine America, just wiki 'list of burial mounds in the United States' to look to some. By luck Yamnayists are not linking them to IE white charioters...

true - but some pops like to keep on with traditions; they can change, but very often under influences of other pops traditions (snobism, religion...); Metals Age pops show different burial practices even in the same period and in close region (flat tombs an d so on...); is not your Ocam razor a bit blunt?
 

This thread has been viewed 59998 times.

Back
Top