Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

I am that Greek

I know, you are Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, I guess you did an SNP pack when BY4526 was not available. You might try that one, you don't seem to be likely E-Y20805 either because they have an old STR of dys456=18. Or you might try BigY when it's on discount.:)
 
I am sure that E-v13 was Illyrian haplogroup. There was only one ancient Illyrian bone tested and J2-L283 was lucky to score it, proving without doubt that it was present among Illyrians.

However if we would test more bones like its done in many other studies i am sure that we would find E-v13 there. I expected Mycenaeans also to score some E-v13. It was a bit surprising not to find E-v13 there but it was only one Mycenaean bone also. However there was no E-v13 in 3 ancient Minoans, 1 Mycenaean, and 1 Illyrian so far.

I still think Illyrian and Thracian zone is best to look at. E-L618+ v13- found in Dalmatia 5500 BCE shows that E-v13 ancestor was already in region.

Also regarding Albanians, situation is that there is many various branches inside of CTS5856 (main v13 subclade), also recently PH1246 was found among Albanians (brother clade of CTS5856), and even more recently L618+ v13- (rare brother clade of E-v13) was found in Albania in Laberia region - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

Two samples under process are from Albania and they will soon form Albanian brother clade of E-v13.

Also not to forget that E-v13 when it comes to percentage it achieves its highest percentages in Balkans and especially among Albanians normally up to 30 % but it can go even higher.
 
I know, you are Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, I guess you did an SNP pack when BY4526 was not available. You might try that one, you don't seem to be likely E-Y20805 either because they have an old STR of dys456=18. Or you might try BigY when it's on discount.:)

For some reason FTDNA doesn't let me buy the BY4526 SNP, I also believe I am positive for it, since the STRs from the CTS9320 project who belong to that subclade are similar to mine.
 
For some reason FTDNA doesn't let me buy the BY4526 SNP, I also believe I am positive for it, since the STRs from the CTS9320 project who belong to that subclade are similar to mine.
As I am also positive for BY4526 (A+) I would be interested in comparing markers...if you are interested as well ?
 
My paternal marker gives me a position of france next to west switzerland.

Ftdna program gives me north austria
 
Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers

No, some clades may have, but E-V13 was in general spread earlier in Europe.
 
If I look at the distribution map of E-V13, without having further details about the subgroups, it seems to me that it spread from the south of the Balkans, it took the Danube highway up to the North, even further to Germany/Danemark then it was spread with the Goths to Crimea and then it took the route with Ostrogoths and/or Visigoths through the Balkans (the latter) as far as to Iberian peninsula.

If we have a big diversity of E-V13 in the Balkans, it could be the Visigoths that passed through with another layer of this haplogroup.

In Wales, it could be a roman soldier but I would not exclude the other possibilities from the continent (Celtic, Vikings, Normans, etc.), since we don't have it in big numbers there.

We see some presence even in Scandinavia, it's very possible that it came there with the Vikings/Rus (Volga route) or even earlier, directly from North Germany, or even from Slav slaves which Vikings took with them and which also sometimes came along to raid other regions.

So to wrap it up: Balkans (former farmers) -> Hallstatt/La Tène -> somewhere close to North Germany (ethnogenesis of Germani tribes) -> Goths -> direction Crimea with split to Ostrogoths/Visigoths -> Balkans -> North Italy -> Iberia.

Quite a round, but it would explain the subhaplo diversity. I'm obviously not an expert and I won't be sad if anyone corrects me. This is just for discussion purposes.

I would also highly recommend reading Jean Manco "Ancestral Journeys - the peopling of Europe..." if someone has missed it. It's an easy but educational read, very up to date.

Cheers
 
Well there was one E-M78* in a Gheg from Arberesh study who was V13-, V22-, V12- so likely some L618*.

I think E-V13 spread about 8000 years ago via maritime route to Southern Italy and from there to Dalmatia as part of Cardial Impresso culture. Genetically mostly same as other Anatolian EEF's with the small Natufian-like influence and also these weren't much of farmers to begin with, more of fisherman population which adopted farming later. V13 developed on Dalmatian coast as part of subsequently Danilo, Hvar and few other cultures. When IE pastoralists came V13 adapted well unlike most EEF's. May be that being Afroasiatic pastoralists in distant origin, Phalic cult being likely present in Neolithic Dalmatia unlike other G2a EEF's where Matriarchy was the norm. Archaeologists spoke of this potential indication of some Patriarchy in Neolithic Dalmatia which was unusual, but as we now know genetically these were a different people (not G2a2).
Likely source of V13 is Pre Pottery Neolithic B, there is one Middle-eastern clade of L618, found in a Saudi, and an Algerian who clusters with him.

So with an influence of some R1a and R-Z2103 they formed Cetina culture, and they flourished at that time. At the same time Bell Beaker IE groups were also penetrating from NW bringing more J-L283, Cetina people migrated to Greece (some PH1246 there), but also towards the East forming the Bubanj Hum III, Armenochori, Belotic-Bela Crkva complex. These should have been the E-CTS1273, then they became part of a large Danubian archaeological complex in cultures such as Vatin, Verbicioara etc. spreading towards Carpathians. Cetina died out in the West with the remnants joining J-L283 dominated cultures.

At this stage the languages brought by J-L283 might have been Veneto-Liburnian while in the East some other language related to Greek was spoken, like Paeonian, Phrygian. Albanian itself has some distant connections to Greek itself. Possibly Dorian was spoken by some cultures which included some V13 clades such as Y3183 and L241. So it seems some older Z2103 languages were prominent.
But if L283 brought classical Illyrian, maybe that originally Cetina people (so V13) spoke Veneto-Liburnian.

One of peoples are also the Pelastians, Strymon rivers former name was Palaistinos, and some R-Z2103 clades such as Y5586 are very divrse in the area as are some CTS1273 and especially E-FGC44169 which is very diverse in the Middle East, and at least some of these might be Philistines (one was R-M269). "Pelasgian" is likely a Greek corruption (which designated different peoples), but as attested by Egyptian P'R'S'T, Philistines and river Palaistinos this must be the original name of this people that spoke some IE language. Though as seen by most Greek Philistine burial the European component was mostly Anatolian EEF. So already in Bronze age formed this Balkan mixture of EEF + some Yamnaya, with those Delmatae being in cluster not with modern Albanians but with modern Catalans etc.

Then the late Bronze Age collapse came. From Central Europe a wave of Urnfield R-U152 heavy peoples invaded including proto-Illyrians. Meanwhile from the East appeared Noua culture a Srubnaya variant which might have brought the Thracian language, and being R-Z93 + R-Z92.
Urnfield Illyrians and other Urnfield peoples overwhelmed the Western Balkan, they pushed some V13 clades like L241, and Y3183 to the East all the way to Greece which likely included Dorians, others being assimilated. In the Central Balkans some E-V13's were pushed to the South (hence some diversity in the South of Albania) where they might have formed the subsequent Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture. Along the way some R-U152 became Dorian increasing Central European autosomal profile such as the one seen in Cretan sample.
Some V13 clades such as CTS9320 which originate in Eastern Balkans (maybe Carpathians) likely backstabbed the others and spread the new Thracian language around. :grin:

I think linguistic picture of the Balkan might have changed dramatically in Bronze Age collapse.

This is of course with Thracian being newer arrival, which I think is quite likely, might be same with the Illyrian.
 
Btw, the two new L618* samples are Tosk Albanian: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/


They will form a parallel branch to V13 and BY6578.

Are they related to ALB013fta from Arberesh study who is E-M78 (xV12,V13,V22)? They might be some old Cardial migrants to there, or maybe they arrived from the North if they cluster with this Gheg. This just underscores the correctness of tying E-L618 with Cardial Coastal Western Balkan. And of course Cetina culture as that culture had strong pre-IE element in the same area where aDNA L618+ was found.
 
But if L283 brought classical Illyrian, maybe that originally Cetina people (so V13) spoke Veneto-Liburnian.

According to Katicic the Illyrians of Albania were Illyrians proper, Delmatae, Pannonians were a different group under influence of Celtoid populations, which corresponds well with Unrfield R-U152 movement 8and some diversity of these clades in the Western Balkans, usually isolated from the Western European clades). So going after Katičić L283 brought Illyrian proper.
Liburnian might in that case represent something pre-Illyrian.

Regarding V13, it's obvious V13 migrated to the East or/and might have been pushed to the East by the J-L283 wave itself. Bulgarian linguist Georgiev proposed that the Pelasgian language was closely related to Thracian:
"Thracian and Pelasgian are most probably two dialects of a single Thraco-Pelasgian language" (Georgiev 1981:361).

This would favor "older Thracian" in the Balkans. And V13 expansion towards Eastern area fits into that. If Thracian is later arrival then some other languages, Graeco-Phrygian might be the answer. I think it is probably not a coincidence that in Ossetians CTS1273, BY3880- is found alongside basal R-Y5586, both of these clades have roughly similar point of diversity and similar TMRCA in those areas, that is that V13 joined some R-Y5586 population.

V13 clades going Eastwards might have contributed to the more Southeastern autosomal profile of IA Thracians in comparison to LBA Illyrians on Dalmatian coast.
 
Are they related to ALB013fta from Arberesh study who is E-M78 (xV12,V13,V22)? They might be some old Cardial migrants to there, or maybe they arrived from the North if they cluster with this Gheg. This just underscores the correctness of tying E-L618 with Cardial Coastal Western Balkan. And of course Cetina culture as that culture had strong pre-IE element in the same area where aDNA L618+ was found.
Not at all. That Gheg (ALB013fta) from Boattini most likely represent another parallel branch under L618.


Forgot to mention, there is also a Gheg with origin from Kosove (living in Turkey) and a Greek from Koukoulis, Greece (Janine region) on 23andme listed as L618. They must be V13-, assuming 23andme placed them correctly.
 
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Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers

According to Katicic the Illyrians of Albania were Illyrians proper, Delmatae, Pannonians were a different group under influence of Celtoid populations, which corresponds well with Unrfield R-U152 movement 8and some diversity of these clades in the Western Balkans, usually isolated from the Western European clades). So going after Katičić L283 brought Illyrian proper.
Liburnian might in that case represent something pre-Illyrian.

Regarding V13, it's obvious V13 migrated to the East or/and might have been pushed to the East by the J-L283 wave itself. Bulgarian linguist Georgiev proposed that the Pelasgian language was closely related to Thracian:
"Thracian and Pelasgian are most probably two dialects of a single Thraco-Pelasgian language" (Georgiev 1981:361).

This would favor "older Thracian" in the Balkans. And V13 expansion towards Eastern area fits into that. If Thracian is later arrival then some other languages, Graeco-Phrygian might be the answer. I think it is probably not a coincidence that in Ossetians CTS1273, BY3880- is found alongside basal R-Y5586, both of these clades have roughly similar point of diversity and similar TMRCA in those areas, that is that V13 joined some R-Y5586 population.

V13 clades going Eastwards might have contributed to the more Southeastern autosomal profile of IA Thracians in comparison to LBA Illyrians on Dalmatian coast.

Can anyone here tell me one pelasgian/thracian sentence? As far as I know there is only a bunch of Thracian words known , same holds for Illyrian. Pelasgian is still more kind of a mythos. I am happy if you can prove me wrong 😁 then at least some advance is happening in detecting the ancient languages
 
Can anyone here tell me one pelasgian/thracian sentence? As far as I know there is only a bunch of Thracian words known , same holds for Illyrian. Pelasgian is still more kind of a mythos. I am happy if you can prove me wrong 😁 then at least some advance is happening in detecting the ancient languages

We have enough thracian words that are cognates with other IE words to know what evolution certain phonemes underwent. Sound change is regular and consistent unless 1. Loan word, or 2. Areal influence from foreign language.

Albanian does not show thracian reflexes. Infact, the only IE language which has reflexes like Albanian is Messapic, the Illyrian language that actually has the most inscription (up to 600) which are only now being analysed.

Here is one example:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...inguistic-approach/page29?p=588869#post588869
 
I am aware of this , but if Aspurg relates on Georgiev, I wanna know what exactly is taken as indicator for his assumptions.
 
Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers
E v13 again is an Indo-European haplogroup. It means it came to Balkans together with R1B, r1A AND j2 in the Bronx age,. Its not a haplogroup who predated or after dated the Indo-Europeans, or somehow expanded from the Balkans. This haplogroup is not present in non Indo-European populations like Estonia, Finland, since this people are not Indo-Europeans. Sweden on the other hand which borders Finland has the Ev13. Had it not been Indo-European it should have crossed in these contries
 
E v13 again is an Indo-European haplogroup. It means it came to Balkans together with R1B, r1A AND j2 in the Bronx age,. Its not a haplogroup who predated or after dated the Indo-Europeans, or somehow expanded from the Balkans. This haplogroup is not present in non Indo-European populations like Estonia, Finland, since this people are not Indo-Europeans. Sweden on the other hand which borders Finland has the Ev13. Had it not been Indo-European it should have crossed in these contries

Came together? Unlikely, came to Europe at a similar period, sure. But from different background, language, area

The fact that v13 is strong in balkans points to it being an elite race that dominated that region early on. A bit like the Slavic invasion which brought i2a to the balkans and settled there much later, v13 came to the balkans and settled there but how much of the previous population did they wipe out/scare off and what was the initial population if anything
 
Came together? Unlikely, came to Europe at a similar period, sure. But from different background, language, area

The fact that v13 is strong in balkans points to it being an elite race that dominated that region early on. A bit like the Slavic invasion which brought i2a to the balkans and settled there much later, v13 came to the balkans and settled there but how much of the previous population did they wipe out/scare off and what was the initial population if anything

the data available points to Indo-European origin of e v13. Read Maciamo what he has to say about this haplo. What makes you think E-V13 WAS AN ELITE? No such evidence! Wishes is a different matter! the earliest haplogroups are I and long after it haplogroup G
 

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