Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

Northener said:
I been laid off from work
My rent is due
My kids all need
Brand new shoes
So I went to the bank
To see what they could do
They said son - looks like bad luck
Got-a hold on you
Money's too tight to mention
I can't get an un-em-ploy-ment ex-ten-sion
Money's too tight to mention
I went to my brother
To see what he could do
He said bro-ther like to help you
But I'm unable to
So I called on my fa-ther fa-ther
Oh my fa-ther
He said
Money's too tight to mention
Oh mo-ney mo-ney mo-ney mon-ey
Mo-ney's too tight to mention
I can't even qual-i-fy for my pension
We talk a-bout rea-gan-om-ics
Oh lord down in the con-gress
They're passing all kinds - of bills
From down cap-it-ol hill - (we've tried them)
Money's too tight to mention
[Spoken] cut-backs!
Mo-ney mo-ney mo-ney mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' 'bout the dollar bill
And that ol' man that's over the hill
Now what are we all to do
When the mon-ey's got a hold on you?
Mo-ney's too tight to mention
Oh mon-ey mon-ey mon-ey mon-ey
Mo-ney's too tight to mention
A-mero - mon-ey oh yeah
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
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The curse of the middle class:
Rarely recognizing the driving forces behind the decisions made for them.
 
.

I haven't checked the polls, but my gut instinct is that there is absolutely no appetite among most Americans to lose a single one of our sons and daughters to defend a country in Europe which the Europeans decline to defend. The refusal to even accept financial responsibility is a secondary issue.

Imo, the reason there's been so much discussion about it here is because of the refusal by some Europeans on the Board to admit that the attitude of most of the NATO members is just wrong. Even in terms of general fairness it's wrong. Why is it so difficult to admit?

Biden may think he will see his poll numbers improve by making noises about defending Ukraine, but he is mistaken. The prevailing sentiment I hear around me is "not our problem." My take on it is that having been burned so badly by foreign interventions, the majority of Americans are in full retreat into the isolationism which used to be such a potent factor in American politics.

I worry that isolationism carries its own dangers, but that's the sense I get for where most Americans stand.

In reality, the question is sort of moot because, as I said, I don't think Biden will do much of anything except mouth platitudes and neither will the European leaders. If they weren't willing to intervene and stop genocide in the Balkans, they're going to intervene over some provinces in Ukraine? I don't think so.

Will they intervene when Putin goes after the Baltic States or Poland or Hungary? I'm not hopeful.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Northerner: Sorry to disappoint you but among Europeans, survey after survey after survey has shown Italians are the least anti-American. And I understand some Europeans champion Merkel, I had total disdain for her. The old Christian-Democrat German leader Helmut Kohl whose Bavarian-Southern German background I found much more appealing than Merkel's secular elite snobbish personality that is similar to the modern American Left that you find here today.
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My hero is absolutely Helmut Schmidt even more Northern German, Schmidt Schnauze (Schmidt the lip) , though, sharp, witty and understated!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6HzHEINd28

 
real expert said:
There was a campaign in Germany called "Disarm instead of upgrade" against any major investments in the military/army. Germans, especially the Youth struggle with the military, specifically the idea that the military is an element of geopolitical power. Therefore Germans don't want a strong military since they rely on having the strongest economy in Europe and there are of course historical issues. In fact, Germany proceeds to disarm its military. Anyway, a strong and stable USA is in all of our interests, at least for us who live in the Western world. Biden is unfortunately a weak leader.
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Real Expert: I appreciate the total honesty of your post. Yes, the lack of spending on NATO by Germany does allow Germany to focus more on its internal Economic issues. And as you correctly point out, Germany is the largest Economy in Europe and the 4th largest in the World, only behind the 1)USA, 2)China and 3) Japan.

And for the record as I have stated in other posts in other threads, I am not against NATO. NATO allowed the War torn economies of Europe to recover and the USA via Marshal plan and NATO provided a clear deterrent to the Soviet Union to allow the Economies of Europe to recover, to prevent mass civil unrest, and give them to get their societies back running. NATO was a success and still is an important alliance. But as I said in another post, of the top 25 economies in the world, 11 of them are NATO allies and 8 (Germany, UK, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Poland, Belgium) of those are in Europe (USA, Canada and Turkey the 3 that are not).

In my view, the USA needs to position forces more so in the Pacific region to counter China who to me is the biggest geopolitical, economic and military threat to the USA. Russia can be countered by a NATO contingent with a larger European makeup with a still significant USA presence. The other issue is dealing with anti-terrorism although I have never been a fan of the Neo-con regime change policies by putting American boots on the ground.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Northerner: Sorry to disappoint you but among Europeans, survey after survey after survey has shown Italians are the least anti-American. And I understand some Europeans champion Merkel, I had total disdain for her. The old Christian-Democrat German leader Helmut Kohl whose Bavarian-Southern German background I found much more appealing than Merkel's secular elite snobbish personality that is similar to the modern American Left that you find here today.
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Of course you are for Italy, bravo!

Nevertheless the Italians can't peer with the Dutch, the whole trackrecord:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands–United_States_relations

Even nowadays, for the calculator minds, we are the third investor in the US (with a population of 17 mil) ;)
 
Northener said:
That's also because USA had the ambition to be a superpower. Being a superpower comes also with burdens ;)

As said you are on the whole not getting poorer from the Europeans. And the military-industrial complex is a whole export product of your country.

No I don't think you are 'the fool of the world'....so 'savior' huhuh.

Like I said in the case of military you have to take account several things, like in the Germany the stress on pacifism by the allies.....

One thing is amazing me, all Italians I have met have a feeling for 'bella figura'.

Do you know what is contributing to a sense of anti-Americanism, this 'brutta figura':


Merkel's first visit to Trump.....
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I don't see how continually bringing up a man who is no longer in power advances the debate in any meaningful or helpful way.

Your passive aggressive behavior in bringing up Italy in every other post is also totally unhelpful; I don't understand what point you're trying to make other than to continue your harassment of me. If you want to include that Italy should be paying 2% of its GDP for NATO defense, that's perfectly legitimate, but this other nonsense is not. Stop it or you'll get additional infractions.
 
real expert said:
There was a campaign in Germany called "Disarm instead of upgrade" against any major investments in the military/army. Germans, especially the Youth struggle with the military, specifically the idea that the military is an element of geopolitical power. Therefore Germans don't want a strong military since they rely on having the strongest economy in Europe and there are of course historical issues. In fact, Germany proceeds to disarm its military. Anyway, a strong and stable USA is in all of our interests, at least for us who live in the Western world. Biden is unfortunately a weak leader.
Click to expand...

The reality is that after ww2 the British, France and the US were eager not only to learn the Germans lessons in democracy but also in pacifism.It's a plain fact that the Bundeswehr was not allowed to go on a military mission. And the fact is that the allies didn't want to release the 'central European beast' again, simple as that.

As fare as I can see the Germans have expanded and modernized the army, ok may be not as much as you wish but nevertheless.

I guess the statement of monday of Putin and the attempt to put pressure on the minister of foreign affairs Baercbock to control the Ukraine (!) has changed something. Nordstream 2 is "offline:", earlier than all Europeans and US thought...

But I want to see the UK, France etc when Germany is really building up an army....which they/you could. Germany is no longer the economic giant and political dwarf it was after ww2.
 
firetown said:
Nobody here has an issue with the Netherlands. Your distorted views are you. Don't bring your country into this. :p
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I must do something with all those eager Italians around:LOL:
 
Angela said:
I don't see how continually bringing up a man who is no longer in power advances the debate in any meaningful or helpful way.

Your passive aggressive behavior in bringing up Italy in every other post is also totally unhelpful; I don't understand what point you're trying to make other than to continue your harassment of me. If you want to include that Italy should be paying 2% of its GDP for NATO defense, that's perfectly legitimate, but this other nonsense is not. Stop it or you'll get additional infractions.
Click to expand...

The man is gone (is he?). But he left his footprint in thinking, you still reasoning like him (the piggy bank doctrine).

And the infraction thing is getting dull. Disagreement or some witty remarks are not ad hominem....
 
Northener said:
Of course you are for Italy, bravo!

Nevertheless the Italians can't peer with the Dutch, the whole trackrecord:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands–United_States_relations

Even nowadays, for the calculator minds, we are the third investor in the US (with a population of 17 mil) ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, I am aware that the US and the Netherlands have never had a conflict with each other. But if you do the same thing using wikepedia and do Italy and USA, it will clearly state what I said earlier that Italy is one of the most Pro USA countries in the world. Not only Europe. As for Investment, yes I know Holland has some major investments in the USA. Royal Dutch Shell, one of the leading Oil MNC's is heavily invested in the USA, obviously the Port of Rotterdam facilities major trade between the USA and Europe, which goes through Holland.

Of course I have closer ties to Italy for obvious reasons. In terms of ancestry, I am an American of Italian ancestry from the South/Sicily. And while I am no fan of Bergoglio (Pope Francis), I am and always be a Catholic and loyal to Rome (even though not the best one all the time). I have been to Italy and as soon as this COVID stuff calms down, I will head back, visit Rome again, Sicily again and hit other parts of the South. While the Netherlands is I am sure a nice country, I have no desire to visit there. Just the way it is.

But these discussions are getting tangential to the issue at hand, i.e. what should be the structure of NATO today and how should it operate in terms of force structure and financial commitment to it.
 
@Northener,
I specifically requested that you stop harassing the Italians on this Board. Putting a smiley face on your post doesn't sanitize it.

This thread is about the invasion of Ukraine and the NATO response to it. It is irrelevant to the discussion whether Palermo and I are Italian. There are other members posting here who are not of Italian ancestry who also have a problem with the attitude of some of the NATO countries. Stop trying to turn it into some "ethnic" battle.

Cut it out or there will be more severe consequences.
 
Angela said:
@Northener,
I specifically requested that you stop harassing the Italians on this Board. Putting a smiley face on your post doesn't sanitize it.

This thread is about the invasion of Ukraine and the NATO response to it. It is irrelevant to the discussion whether Palermo and I are Italian. There are other members posting here who are not of Italian ancestry who also have a problem with the attitude of some of the NATO countries. Stop trying to turn it into some "ethnic" battle.

Cut it out or there will be more severe consequences.
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I don't harass Italians....it was Palermo who brought up that Italians were less anti-American in Europe. And I reacted on that. I'm not anti-Italian not at all (but you seem to think that for uncleared reason). And to the Dutch nationality I can take lost of humor and critique no problem.

When it's about the Ukraine why insist on those 2% but ok.... succes I have done with it for a while (mission accomplished Angela). This is not the way I want to discuss, when my statement are constantly being taken out of context.
 
firetown said:
Be neutral.
State your case.
And stop referring to Helmut Schmidt as a "Northerner" without crediting all of his backgrounds. :)
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I don't see a reason why a Jewish background is not North German......:unsure: So why stress that. And yes he was but is this relevant when you call him a political hero....

You want to put me in a corner where I don't belong mister.
 
I came across this :

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/23/politics/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-joe-biden/index.html

Trump didn't take long to make sure Putin knew he approved of his movement of troops into parts of eastern Ukraine, knowing that his comments would be picked up and beamed around the world.
"I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, 'This is genius.' Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine, of Ukraine, Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful," Trump said in an interview on "The Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Show."

Is this correct?
I think this is disgusting.
No matter for what purpose Trumps is telling such stories.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Northerner: Sorry to disappoint you but among Europeans, survey after survey after survey has shown Italians are among the least anti-American. Pew Surveys show that only 4 countries had favorable views of the USA in 2021, Poland, Hungary, Italy and UK. And I understand some Europeans champion Merkel, I had total disdain for her. The old Christian-Democrat German leader Helmut Kohl whose Bavarian-Southern German background I found much more appealing than Merkel's secular elite snobbish personality that is similar to the modern American Left that you find here today.
Click to expand...

I agree, with you. Merkel has destroyed the once conservative CDU and "castrated" all the alpha male politicians, so to speak. Our mainstream media was only full of praise and behaved like a court reporter of her. Merkel is from East Germany, and from recalling reading she has a "Stasi Past". However, our current Chancellor, another leftist, isn't better. Germany like the USA and other Western countries has shifted strongly to left. The USA is the role model and where the USA usually goes Europe follows. Here's the thing, there are people who love the USA but don't like the politics there. For example, many people were highly critical of the wars under Bush or Obama. However, they weren't anti-American as such but just didn't like the geopolitics. And then there are the real anti-American folks out there. What I find rather puzzling is that many young Americans, especially the college-educated ones, express a lot of contempt for the USA, such as burning the US-American flag and whatnot. In my personal opinion, China is much more dangerous than Russia. Communist China poses a much bigger threat than Russia to the USA. When it comes to Ukraine, the situation is different.
 
Northener said:
I don't harass Italians....it was Palermo who brought up that Italians were less anti-American in Europe. And I reacted on that. I'm not anti-Italian not at all (but you seem to think that for uncleared reason). And to the Dutch nationality I can take lost of humor and critique no problem.

When it's about the Ukraine why insist on those 2% but ok.... succes I have done with it for a while (mission accomplished Angela). This is not the way I want to discuss, when my statement are constantly being taken out of context.
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Why as a European would you be Anti-American? Shouldn't the lack of being Anti-American be the norm? With those identifying as otherwise being left to figure out what inside of them is ill enough to blame a force from afar for the lack of their presumed capabilities?

Can we be solution-based for a minute?
 
Northener said:
I don't see a reason why a Jewish background is not North German......:unsure: So why stress that. And yes he was but is this relevant when you call him a political hero....

You want to put me in a corner where I don't belong mister.
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No, Sir! He was comfortable as being from Hamburg. A very northern part of Germany. However... isolating part of his heritage... even if dominant,, will be a standstill IMO.
He was brilliant. He was a Northern German. AND... he was also Jewish. And yes, that, to me, is a very important part of his legacy.
 
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