To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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Riverman, today I had the idea of creating Neolithic averages by countries, I checked the individuals for IE mixture, and only kept neolithic profiles that lacked IE mixture. I ignored WHG because that is irrelevant, that is the characteristic that sets them apart regionally.

Very interesting patterns, but also I'd like to hear your opinion on what I call the Dardani cluster, because if this reads are correct, they once lived in north-western Hungary.

Two versions:
PjnXqbq.png



With ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
QiK9qPy.png



Personally I don't like excluding ROU_N_outlier1:I7126, because the Romanian Neolithic sample is small, and Romania is a big country, the outlier has about 20% WHG, which is not atypical in neighboring regions like Serbia.

Anyhow, here is some interesting patterns:

1) Himera's E-V13s are clearly not Illyrians. Their neolithic component is based in Romania or/and Hungary. I10946 association with Hungary makes sense, you would recall that was my original appraisal on it's location. In this chart I10950 looks Dacian, just as it did using IA proxies.

2) The Dardanian cluster (MJ12, I18832, I10379 and the partial Dardanis) is a surprise. This calc supports a northern origin to R1b-Z2103 (neolithic component preferred is Czech). I am clueless on the archeological knowledge and context here. Is there anything that supports such a scenario? A Yamnaya branch in western Hungary getting progressively pushed down by Corded derived groups until it ends up in the southern Balkans (Brnica and Babadag culture)? I kind of brushed aside the fact that Paeonia resembles the name Pannonia. There might a chronological connection behind the name.

3) Thracian has a strong Romanian neolithic.

4) Illyrians pick up Italian neolithic, supporting you and Torzio claims (they were getting genetic feedback from Italian Beakers and later Italics and Celts).

I probably should have spent an additional 30 minutes and added Alpine and German Neolithic averages, so eastern Celtic groups could be tested out too, but I am Balkan centric in my approaches.

Code: 
BGR_N:Avg,0.1211077,0.1806626,0.0114268,-0.0889219,0.0541641,-0.045515,-0.000188,-0.0028151,0.0397187,0.0845575,0.0116594,0.0139526,-0.022864,-0.0011148,-0.0366987,-0.0141739,0.0211353,0.0055363,0.0081705,-0.0132563,-0.0116794,0.0063558,-0.0049793,-0.0041089,-0.0098674
BGR_Krepost_N:I0679_d,0.1161,0.152329,-0.024513,-0.071383,0.020311,-0.042112,-0.003525,-0.012461,0.005113,0.047746,-0.006333,0.009292,-0.014866,-0.013625,-0.029451,-0.014187,0.019297,0.002027,0.006536,-0.00963,-0.012977,-0.001113,-0.006162,0.000964,-0.001676
CZE_EE:Avg,0.127237964285714,0.17097175,0.0509921071428571,-0.0404442142857143,0.0819822142857143,-0.0237257142857143,-0.000654642857142857,0.00443392857142857,0.0550607857142857,0.0779645357142857,0.000144928571428572,0.0109027857142857,-0.022315,-0.00614885714285714,-0.0161603214285714,0.000895,0.0154737142857143,0.004122,0.00753732142857143,-0.00224225,0.00953217857142857,0.006483,-0.01290575,-0.0280934285714286,0.000440464285714286
CZE_EN_LBK:I15818,0.124067,0.18178,0.005657,-0.091086,0.056934,-0.044901,-0.009165,-0.004154,0.038655,0.08146,0.005196,0.018284,-0.030178,-0.007156,-0.039902,-0.001458,0.034161,-0.002534,0.01345,-0.004752,-0.014599,0.011376,-0.008011,0.006266,0.000958
CZE_ME:Avg,0.124392285714286,0.169956214285714,0.0544939285714286,-0.0342841428571429,0.0824109285714286,-0.0206178571428571,0.000419714285714286,0.00456571428571428,0.0517447142857143,0.0746646428571428,0.00145,0.00639064285714286,-0.0203134285714286,-0.00460057142857143,-0.0150649285714286,-0.0001135,0.0111852142857143,0.00594535714285714,0.00472271428571429,-0.00364464285714286,0.00912671428571428,0.00552028571428571,-0.0128618571428571,-0.0287389285714286,0.000350714285714286
CZE_N:Avg,0.125611857142857,0.1793135,0.0332404285714286,-0.0636540714285714,0.0725628571428572,-0.0344431428571429,-0.00334035714285714,0.000164857142857143,0.049933,0.0792597142857143,0.00394357142857143,0.0102338571428571,-0.0220018571428571,0.000186785714285714,-0.0274639285714286,-0.0030685,0.0150593571428571,0.00213557142857143,0.010442,-0.00544014285714286,-0.000641785714285715,0.00774578571428571,-0.0089355,-0.0144768571428571,-0.00251485714285714
GRC_N:Avg,0.119134833333333,0.177548333333333,-0.00691383333333333,-0.0980306666666667,0.043649,-0.043228,-0.00207583333333333,-0.00492283333333333,0.0276108333333333,0.0755976666666667,0.00617066666666667,0.0126888333333333,-0.0233148333333333,-0.00190383333333333,-0.0372553333333333,-0.00791116666666667,0.0221435,0.00109783333333333,0.0093435,-0.0137983333333333,-0.0171988333333333,0.002947,-0.0035125,-0.000361666666666667,-0.00469016666666667
HRV_N:Avg,0.120146555555556,0.181140333333333,0.0140232962962963,-0.0905238518518519,0.0603644814814815,-0.0414411111111111,-0.003203,-0.00304266666666667,0.0446619259259259,0.0861436666666667,0.00674807407407407,0.0135491111111111,-0.0230973703703704,-0.0010142962962963,-0.0379764814814815,-0.0122081111111111,0.0167615185185185,0.000957222222222222,0.0104841481481481,-0.00956937037037037,-0.0106200740740741,0.00504222222222222,-0.00389837037037037,-0.005516,-0.00431981481481481
HUN_N:Avg,0.124784739130435,0.178203304347826,0.0188970434782609,-0.0799004347826087,0.0640452826086957,-0.0407058913043478,-0.00309084782608696,-0.00157517391304348,0.0441993913043478,0.0816893260869565,0.00725458695652174,0.0111063913043478,-0.0200174782608696,0.00247717391304348,-0.0374912391304348,-0.011832152173913,0.0149771739130435,0.00276236956521739,0.0115942173913044,-0.0110135,-0.00967047826086956,0.00731163043478261,-0.00604180434782609,-0.00889589130434782,-0.0042849347826087
ITA_N:Avg,0.1237256,0.1804595,0.0142173,-0.0789412,0.0601651,-0.0393792,-0.0045356,-0.0041076,0.0448929,0.0854687,0.0034102,0.014537,-0.0250643,-0.0053535,-0.0301435,-0.0051974,0.0187754,0.0022805,0.0079819,-0.0086792,-0.0063386,0.0032891,-0.0049669,-0.0119414,-0.0007425
ITA_Sardinia_N:Avg,0.126217166666667,0.178564,0.0427822777777778,-0.0560763888888889,0.0788693888888889,-0.0303680555555556,-0.00400816666666667,-0.000282,0.0600732222222222,0.0990455,0.00119977777777778,0.0165268888888889,-0.0346132222222222,-0.0150925555555556,-0.0187669444444444,-0.00144377777777778,0.0134731111111111,0.00211144444444444,0.00486027777777778,-0.0112137222222222,0.00167055555555556,0.00280272222222222,-0.0120851111111111,-0.0285113333333333,0.00118427777777778
ITA_Sicily_MN:Avg,0.1186605,0.17555975,0.0204115,-0.07275575,0.065704375,-0.0393935,-0.0073145,-0.00432675,0.04542975,0.0848535,0.00379575,0.00962875,-0.020459375,-0.004042625,-0.031538,-0.0044085,0.01962275,0.003484,0.008484625,-0.0115525,-0.00430475,0.006677375,-0.00756425,-0.01322475,-0.003802
MKD_N:I0676,0.122929,0.182795,-0.000754,-0.103037,0.063704,-0.046296,-0.00376,-0.001385,0.046222,0.090571,0.01153,0.014837,-0.031516,0.003303,-0.042073,-0.011535,0.024251,0.005448,0.013701,-0.012006,-0.016346,0.011623,0.001109,0.00494,-0.007664
ROU_N:Avg,0.1246365,0.18406475,0.0118795,-0.0973845,0.061396,-0.04894525,-0.00475875,-0.0047305,0.04637575,0.092075,0.006861,0.01442475,-0.0239715,0.0036815,-0.0477395,-0.01431975,0.019199,0.008203,0.01461225,-0.00912925,-0.01553525,0.006059,-0.00714825,0.0038255,-0.00874175
SRB_N:Avg,0.129378666666667,0.183134,0.011188,-0.097869,0.0588826666666667,-0.0449943333333333,-0.00156666666666667,-0.00707666666666667,0.0407686666666667,0.0896603333333333,0.00319366666666667,0.015586,-0.0223486666666667,4.60000000000003E-05,-0.0417566666666667,-0.015513,0.0200356666666667,0.000253666666666667,0.0111033333333333,-0.0124643333333333,-0.00540733333333333,0.004328,-0.00772366666666667,0.00453866666666667,0.000279333333333333
POL_BKG_N:Avg,0.121600833333333,0.171793666666667,0.0336266666666667,-0.0614238333333333,0.0693461666666667,-0.0323976666666667,0.000391666666666667,-0.000230833333333333,0.0459496666666667,0.0785738333333333,0.0023545,0.009391,-0.0177153333333333,0.00309666666666667,-0.0301073333333333,-0.00556883333333333,0.0116476666666667,0.00287166666666667,0.0128631666666667,-0.0093795,-0.0042425,0.00748116666666667,-0.00796983333333333,-0.0190388333333333,-0.00347283333333333
POL_Globular_Amphora:Avg,0.128294857142857,0.170101357142857,0.0588578571428571,-0.0259092142857143,0.0830045,-0.0214147857142857,0.00129257142857143,0.00702164285714286,0.0525772142857143,0.0728814285714286,0.000464,0.0100946428571429,-0.0171702142857143,-0.0066255,-0.0132132142857143,0.000606142857142857,0.00724564285714286,0.00614428571428571,0.00683264285714286,-5.35714285714284E-05,0.00962578571428572,0.00711878571428571,-0.0137949285714286,-0.0258728571428571,0.000213928571428572
WHG:SRB_Iron_Gates_Avg,0.13046975,0.11805525,0.1794505,0.174532,0.1301396875,0.05351209375,0.01399796875,0.0320540625,0.06475096875,-0.00843409375,-0.00892628125,-0.0168138125,0.02473340625,-4.21874999999999E-06,0.032080875,0.04726409375,0.00466528125,0.0055781875,-0.006768,0.04741340625,0.07336275,0.01101284375,-0.03336925,-0.12037075,0.01111040625
WHG:ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_TepeHissar_C:Avg,0.0780204545454546,0.0983218181818182,-0.120918545454545,-0.0128612727272727,-0.0963815454545454,0.0127782727272727,0.0129470909090909,-0.00505581818181818,-0.0701888181818182,-0.0367123636363636,-0.00394154545454545,-0.00129436363636364,-0.00114881818181818,-0.00295263636363636,0.0196547272727273,0.0289646363636364,-0.00679172727272727,0.00532090909090909,0.00764481818181818,-0.0237274545454545,0.00626190909090909,-0.0142986363636364,-0.00521,-0.0225331818181818,0.0140867272727273
Yamnaya_Avg:,0.120715777777778,0.0878996666666667,0.0439556111111111,0.113661111111111,-0.0293728888888889,0.0448704444444444,0.00420394444444444,-0.00333322222222222,-0.0553464444444444,-0.0740585555555556,0.000496055555555556,0.000366388888888889,-0.00175922222222222,-0.0232582222222222,0.0337866666666667,0.0136272222222222,-0.000992444444444444,-0.00304055555555556,-0.00233938888888889,0.0107411666666667,-0.00358394444444444,0.000583888888888889,0.0101952777777778,0.0198688333333333,-0.0037055
Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER),0.1253507,0.10915866,0.056808809,0.089148191,0.0044132128,0.033087128,0.0037300426,0.00056465957,-0.028402702,-0.041441191,-0.0014857447,0.00009887234,-0.0056111064,-0.014620191,0.026595404,0.0083559362,-0.0093626809,0.0014421702,-0.0005696383,0.0058938085,0.0016965106,0.0034095532,0.0045051064,0.015449404,-0.0021528511
TUR_SE_Mardin_PPN:I8432,0.071709,0.131003,-0.084098,-0.097223,-0.052625,-0.032909,-0.009165,-0.011307,-0.020861,-0.009841,0.026469,-0.007044,0.009812,0.014175,-0.005836,0.000663,-0.002217,0.006081,-0.000377,0.002876,-0.000749,0.012984,-0.001849,-0.023618,0.008861
Levant_PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
Uralic(RUS_HG),0.10471733,-0.068040567,0.095076233,0.1915759,-0.082477,0.043630767,-0.0425109,-0.048331333,-0.032042,-0.088526,0.022084667,-0.0095581,0.026246767,-0.071105233,0.024595433,0.017958433,-0.012908,-0.0047716667,-0.00019543333,0.0012226667,-0.031680433,0.013217333,0.023992333,0.0063325667,-0.0095001
 
From the other forum:
Bruzmi said:
As R-PF7563 is found among southern Illyrians and it will be confirmed among Iapygians in Italy, who themselves are descendants of Cetina migrations, I believe that it is quite likely that the R-PF7563 in southern Peloponnese in the 11th century BCE reached the region with Cetina movements, several hundred years prior to this era.
Click to expand...
I find it funny how Maleschreiber lumps different eras and archeological complexes together. He blatantly blends out the Balkan Yamnayan R1b that is negative for L23 and very likely R1b-PF7562 and tries to connect the Pylos samples with EBA Cetina movements into Greece when this lineage is completely absent in Cetina.

The steppe movements into ancient Greece are overwhelmingly Yamnaya related and that is the reason for the occurrence of this rather rare haplogroup there.
 
mount123 said:
From the other forum:

I find it funny how Maleschreiber lumps different eras and archeological complexes together. He blatantly blends out the Balkan Yamnayan R1b that is negative for L23 and very likely R1b-PF7562 and tries to connect the Pylos samples with EBA Cetina movements into Greece when this lineage is completely absent in Cetina.

The steppe movements into ancient Greece are overwhelmingly Yamnaya related and that is the reason for the occurrence of this rather rare haplogroup there.
Click to expand...

R1b-PF7562 has shown itself to be normal in IA Albania, the Cinamak fellow and the miss-dated mdv fellow from Korca are both R1b-PF7562-3 . However, giving it a Illyrian association is a long stretch, they likely represent a pre-Illyrian layer. Speculating it came with Illyrian ships to Greece is comedy, they always want to own everything. The more reasonable explanation is either some Greek groups had it, or it joined them when they migrated south from the vicinity of Albania/Macedonia.

He thinks it will be found among Messapi, that will likely be true, but I think with the actual Messapi, not the Dauni and Peuceti north of them. Until evidence proves otherwise, I'm of the opinion Messapi is not Illyrian derived, while the other two tribes north of it are.
 
I updated yesterday's model, removed single individuals, Czech LBK, MKD N, Rou N outlier, are single individuals and it is a unknown if they truly represented the norm. I also broke up the Hungarian Neolithic by cultures (Hungary neolithic is a huge collection).


PmZ0eop.png




Thracian Neolithic is entirely northern derived. The Dardanians have a portion of neolithic ancestry from southern Hungary, to me this is a possible association for the Vatin group being R1b-Z2103. The Himera's E-V13 are also form the Hungarian-Romanian zone. Even the Uralic signal (which was prevalent in Ukranian neolithic) hints at this association.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
I updated yesterday's model, removed single individuals, Czech LBK, MKD N, Rou N outlier, are single individuals and it is a unknown if they truly represented the norm. I also broke up the Hungarian Neolithic by cultures (Hungary neolithic is a huge collection).


PmZ0eop.png




Thracian Neolithic is entirely northern derived. The Dardanians have a portion of neolithic ancestry from southern Hungary, to me this is a possible association for the Vatin group being R1b-Z2103. The Himera's E-V13 are also form the Hungarian-Romanian zone. Even the Uralic signal (which was prevalent in Ukranian neolithic) hints at this association.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are right and Vatin might end up R1b-Z2103, even J2b2-L283 on the western hemisphere which was sort of separate entity from core Vatin. But i also have the feeling E-V13 played a role in Vatin. Vatin is part of greater Balkan-Carpathian hemisphere which also includes Gava in North-East. Unfortunately they were extensive cremation users during Bronze Age and it's hard to get samples from them. Though there is still dispute regarding their exact definition, but some archaeologists consider as a quite important Central Balkan cultural group, progenitor of many Paleo-Balkan Iron Age tribes.
 
Hawk said:
Perhaps you are right and Vatin might end up R1b-Z2103, even J2b2-L283 on the western hemisphere which was sort of separate entity from core Vatin. But i also have the feeling E-V13 played a role in Vatin. Vatin is part of greater Balkan-Carpathian hemisphere which also includes Gava in North-East. Unfortunately they were extensive cremation users during Bronze Age and it's hard to get samples from them. Though there is still dispute regarding their exact definition, but some archaeologists consider as a quite important Central Balkan cultural group, progenitor of many Paleo-Balkan Iron Age tribes.
Click to expand...


Looking at the neolithic mixture, and I made another update yesterday by including chalcolithic averages, it looks like Illyrians truly emerge as unique by getting Italian Beaker (Sardinian neolithic) feedback, and later direct Italic and finally Celtic IA.
I am basing this on pre-IE components reads. Jag MBA was not very Illyrian like but west Hungarian Baden pre-IE layer, strong WHG and IE. If that was the real original J2b Illyrian profile, it began to shift toward Italics.

The question that lingers is why what seems to be the R1b-Z2103 profile carries Hungarian and Romanian neolithic (plus a south Balkan neolithic too). Being ignorant on archeological detail and to be able to tell if this is feasible. To me, it's looking like our R1b-Z2103 hails from Vucedol, and gradually lost ground to the expanding Corded groups. Vatin was possibly it's last holdout in it's original core region.

And E-V13 and J2b, both emerged in frontier zones where Yamnaya and Corded groups were duking it out. Both seem to have allied themselves with the local Corded groups and piled on the Yamnaya block. By the time of BA collapse, both E-V13 and J2b-L283 have become their own independent entity. Cetina culture seems to have risen to a Venetian like sea empire.
 
Last edited:
PaleoRevenge said:
Looking at the neolithic mixture, and I made another update yesterday by including chalcolithic averages, it looks like Illyrians truly emerge as unique by getting Italian Beaker (Sardinian neolithic) feedback, and later direct Italic and finally Celtic IA.
I am basing this on pre-IE components reads. Jag MBA was not very Illyrian like but west Hungarian Baden pre-IE layer, strong WHG and IE. If that was the real original J2b Illyrian profile, it began to shift toward Italics.

The question that lingers is why what seems to be the R1b-Z2103 profile carries Hungarian and Romanian neolithic (plus a south Balkan neolithic too). Being ignorant on archeological detail and to be able to tell if this is feasible. To it's looking like our R1b-Z2103 hails from Vucedol, and gradually lost ground to the expanding Corded groups. Vatin was possibly it's last holdout in it's original core region.

And E-V13 and J2b, both emerged in frontier zones where Yamnaya and Corded groups were duking it out. Both seem to have allied themselves with the local Corded groups and piled on the Yamnaya block. By the time of BA collapse, both E-V13 and J2b-L283 have become their own independent entity. Cetina culture seems to have risen to a Venetian like sea empire.
Click to expand...

I would be careful in case of R1b-Z2103. During Early Bronze Age, it was a widespread Balkan Yamnaya Y-DNA. The only strange thing is still not showing up among Myceneans, and Anatolian IE. That would wrap nicely and tie everything together.
 
Hawk said:
I would be careful in case of R1b-Z2103. During Early Bronze Age, it was a widespread Balkan Yamnaya Y-DNA. The only strange thing is still not showing up among Myceneans, and Anatolian IE. That would wrap nicely and tie everything together.
Click to expand...

Bulgarian Yamnaya average on G25 tests comes of as Corded not Yamnaya, and it's position near the steppe, gives it exposure to invasions. Time will tell, to me it's looking like Yamnaya aDNA was holding out in the central Balkans, near the Danube, until it lost it's core region and was forced southward.

Greek groups do not seem to be homogenous, and it was likely different competing IE groups entered Greece and because of geography had to standardize/blend into one. Later Dorians are described as the sons of "can't recall" taking revenge on the sons of "another name I can't recall", so basically two different IE groups that had rivalry going back to a habitat that was not Greece.
 
Hawk said:
I would be careful in case of R1b-Z2103. During Early Bronze Age, it was a widespread Balkan Yamnaya Y-DNA. The only strange thing is still not showing up among Myceneans, and Anatolian IE. That would wrap nicely and tie everything together.
Click to expand...
Whilst it is true for so far missing Z2103, on the other side R1b-PF7562 which itself is a rare haplogroup has been shown to have spread with Yamnaya into Greece. The L23- sample from Cinamak is proof of that, although low coverage one can assume that it is highly likely PF7562, not to forget the EBA Russian sample (not sure what the archeological affiliation was for that one).

Doesn't of course change the fact that Yamnaya were overwhelmingly by a large margin Z2103 (bite some minority hg. e.g. I-M223+ or the aforementioned rare hg. etc.). Point is we will very certainly see it in Bronze Age Greece. If I'm not mistaken some people were alluding the Armenochori group to supposedly yield Z2103. So we will see.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Looking at the neolithic mixture, and I made another update yesterday by including chalcolithic averages, it looks like Illyrians truly emerge as unique by getting Italian Beaker (Sardinian neolithic) feedback, and later direct Italic and finally Celtic IA.
I am basing this on pre-IE components reads. Jag MBA was not very Illyrian like but west Hungarian Baden pre-IE layer, strong WHG and IE. If that was the real original J2b Illyrian profile, it began to shift toward Italics.

Cetina culture seems to have risen to a Venetian like sea empire.
Click to expand...
Why would anyone associate Jagodnjak with the "original Illyrian profile"? They literally have nothing to do with Cetina in terms of auDNA and uniparentals. Cetina is a EBA culture that expanded through out the whole Mediterranean and that is a whole different scale. Medieval Venetians weren't even a thing back then.

The auDNA is Cetina-like not the other way around. This type of autosomal ancestry is something that Italian Beakers did not even have. There is no proof of a shift of Cetina towards Beakers in archaeogenetic records. The EBA-MBA Cetina/Dinaric cluster shows the normal variance within a population group. The whole argument of that non existent shift is to take Yamnaya meets Baden Culture cough HRV_Popova Zemlja cough as an ancestral population. But guess what those aren't ancestral and have nothing to do with EBA Cetina, at all.

As for it being an independent entity prior to its IE migrations into the Balkans too, I agree.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Looking at the neolithic mixture, and I made another update yesterday by including chalcolithic averages, it looks like Illyrians truly emerge as unique by getting Italian Beaker (Sardinian neolithic) feedback, and later direct Italic and finally Celtic IA.
I am basing this on pre-IE components reads. Jag MBA was not very Illyrian like but west Hungarian Baden pre-IE layer, strong WHG and IE. If that was the real original J2b Illyrian profile, it began to shift toward Italics.

The question that lingers is why what seems to be the R1b-Z2103 profile carries Hungarian and Romanian neolithic (plus a south Balkan neolithic too). Being ignorant on archeological detail and to be able to tell if this is feasible. To it's looking like our R1b-Z2103 hails from Vucedol, and gradually lost ground to the expanding Corded groups. Vatin was possibly it's last holdout in it's original core region.

And E-V13 and J2b, both emerged in frontier zones where Yamnaya and Corded groups were duking it out. Both seem to have allied themselves with the local Corded groups and piled on the Yamnaya block. By the time of BA collapse, both E-V13 and J2b-L283 have become their own independent entity. Cetina culture seems to have risen to a Venetian like sea empire.
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cetina was on land on both sides of the adriatic

 
torzio said:
cetina was on land on both sides of the adriatic
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That map was made by Quiles, an internet blogger. I always advice to read scientific sources when it comes to EBA Cetina and their migrations.

Some good insights on Early Bronze Age Cetina culture:

https://www.academia.edu/36936788/Th...h_perspectives

https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/fakulta...-bw/research/current-projects/cetina-project/

https://www.academia.edu/42625481/Sp...tic_prehistory (Cetina from page 124)

http://aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=13

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feart.2021.771683/full (Cetina pottery in the Aegean, Italy, Malta)
 
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Thanks for the link to the paper I absolutely did not like as it lacks good quality research in comparison to other sources I have posted. Wasn't sure if the map was self made by Quiles or from that paper but given the general bad quality either would have been possible.

Post scriptum: good to see how archeology has evolved since then in regards to exploring and deciphering SE European centered cultures.
 
Excellent post from the other forum (reply to Bruzmi/Wikipedia Maleschreiber's unrealistic claims):


CopperAxe said:
MJ12 was from western Ukraine on the Romanian border and not too far from Moldova. She didnt have minor local ancestry, it is rather the opposite in that she had mostly local ancestry with minor intrusive ancestry. Scytho-Siberians werent the local inhabitants of that region of Ukraine. I'd also add that your claim/suggestion that this sample and others from Glinoe were from the western Balkans just isn't all that realistic in my eyes, I think it is far more likely that this is just the local profile of the area rather than a constant appearance of western balkan samples near the Black Sea despite a limited amount of samples from the region.
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mount123 said:
Why would anyone associate Jagodnjak with the "original Illyrian profile"? They literally have nothing to do with Cetina in terms of auDNA and uniparentals. Cetina is a EBA culture that expanded through out the whole Mediterranean and that is a whole different scale. Medieval Venetians weren't even a thing back then.

The auDNA is Cetina-like not the other way around. This type of autosomal ancestry is something that Italian Beakers did not even have. There is no proof of a shift of Cetina towards Beakers in archaeogenetic records. The EBA-MBA Cetina/Dinaric cluster shows the normal variance within a population group. The whole argument of that non existent shift is to take Yamnaya meets Baden Culture cough HRV_Popova Zemlja cough as an ancestral population. But guess what those aren't ancestral and have nothing to do with EBA Cetina, at all.

As for it being an independent entity prior to its IE migrations into the Balkans too, I agree.
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I am new to a lot of these, I have no idea if people consider Jagodnjak Illyrian related, or what the consensus is. Cetina shows some Sardanian Neolithic, which was in Italian Beakers. The HRV IA Illyrians show Polish Neolithic, which was present in eastern La Tene Celts. There is noticeable shift and change in the neolithic component with time.

Beakers were also quite a large culture block, form a geopolitical point of view, it would have been unwise to have been hostile to them and be shunned from their extensive trade network. It's looking like Illyrians were western oriented, in trade and wife exchange. Even in modern age, Croatia and Slovenia are western leaning despite being Slavic countries. This geographical location always leans towards Italy and Austria-Hungary historically.
 
mount123 said:
Excellent post from the other forum (reply to Bruzmi/Wikipedia Maleschreiber's unrealistic claims):
Click to expand...

Not surprised at his nonsense claims.

BTW MJ12 cannot be Cimmerian because of her age. 880 BC is way too early for steppe nomads, at that time they had just mastered horse riding and were fighting the old Andronovo derived cultures at the edges of the Altai. Through gradual attrition warfare they made sedentary life impossible and the steppe became theirs. They show up in Ukraine around 700 BC.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
I am new to a lot of these, I have no idea if people consider Jagodnjak Illyrian related, or what the consensus is
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Those samples are (if you mean the same as I do) Encrusted Pottery people and these are completely different people with more WHG and less Bell Beaker-like ancestry. They are closer related to Western Hungarian, Southern Romanian, Bulgarian Bronze Age samples which are all pretty similar (high I2, high G2, high WHG, lower Yamnaya/no Bell Beaker). Those were the people in between the Cetina people/Pre-Illyrians and Bell Beakers on the one hand and the East Carpathian and Epi-Corded groups or steppe on the other. They being largely replaced by Tumulus culture (Bell Beaker-derived largely) and G?va-related Channelled Ware.
We don't know how they relate exactly to other people and what kind of language they might have spoken. It seems they didn't survive as a population and ethnicity of their own, but rather got replaced and assimilated. They did contribute to the Middle Danubian and Carpathian Tumulus culture a bit, possibly, and even more to a variety of Balkan groups, Stamped Pottery in particular. But neither their exact autosomal profile nor their patrilineages seem to have been particularly successful as far as we can tell as of yet, with two samples, one being I2 dominated in Hungary, the other G2 from Northern Croatia.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
I am new to a lot of these, I have no idea if people consider Jagodnjak Illyrian related, or what the consensus is. Cetina shows some Sardanian Neolithic, which was in Italian Beakers. The HRV IA Illyrians show Polish Neolithic, which was present in eastern La Tene Celts. There is noticeable shift and change in the neolithic component with time.

Beakers were also quite a large culture block, form a geopolitical point of view, it would have been unwise to have been hostile to them and be shunned from their extensive trade network. It's looking like Illyrians were western oriented, in trade and wife exchange. Even in modern age, Croatia and Slovenia are western leaning despite being Slavic countries. This geographical location always leans towards Italy and Austria-Hungary historically.
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all its history Croatia and Slovenia uses a Latin based text .............Serbia uses Cyrillic , which is Slavic based

Is this your western leaning ?
 
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