Jewish populations - a subtle distinction

Are these LMBA Armenians the potential "Satem" Armenians you and I were talking about some weeks ago?
Pip is saying the ydna of the LMBA armenian samples were majority ydna hg E-M84 this hg is more in Palestine\Jews so it could be Canaanite mixture in LMBA armenians don't you think?
 
Thanks for these suggestions, everyone, which I think all look possible.
 
Pip is saying the ydna of the LMBA armenian samples were majority ydna hg E-M84 this hg is more in Palestine\Jews so it could be Canaanite mixture in LMBA armenians don't you think?
Yes, I've been looking more closely at the LMBA Armenian yDNA haplogroup E-M84, of which there are very many Ashkenazi samples. These Ashkenazis samples appear to fall into two main groups - Y14899 and PF6747.

I had already noticed that Y14899 is almost exclusively Ashkenazi, with the exception of two basal samples (a Sephardi and a Palestinian) - all deriving from a recent bottleneck (meaning it tells us little about more distant origins).

PF6747 looks similar, with an Ashkenazi-heavy branch (Z21018) and including some Sephardis and a Yemeni - but each with a substantially more distant (Bronze Age) TMRCA than Y14899 (per both yfull's estimates and my own).

I would suggest this swings the balance towards the proto-Ashkenazi E-M84 being of a Southern Levant/Red Sea/generic Jewish origin, rather than Anatolian, which might also explain the relatively heavy Egyptian-like aDNA in Ashkenazis. Interestingly, the closest related PF6747 I can find to Z21018 (in terms of STRs) is a modern Armenian.

I am tentatively leaning towards Armenian E-M84 making a more ancient (Bronze Age?) contribution to the Jewish gene pool, which thrived in individuals who were ancestral to proto-Ashkenazis, but was heavily diluted (or not heavily admixed in the first place) into individuals who were ancestral to other Jewish groups. However, I suppose this would be dependent on there being some kind of caste system within early Jewish populations that severely limited admixture between the ancestors of the different groups.
 
Yes, I've been looking more closely at the LMBA Armenian yDNA haplogroup E-M84, of which there are very many Ashkenazi samples. These Ashkenazis samples appear to fall into two main groups - Y14899 and PF6747.

I had already noticed that Y14899 is almost exclusively Ashkenazi, with the exception of two basal samples (a Sephardi and a Palestinian) - all deriving from a recent bottleneck (meaning it tells us little about more distant origins).

PF6747 looks similar, with an Ashkenazi-heavy branch (Z21018) and including some Sephardis and a Yemeni - but each with a substantially more distant (Bronze Age) TMRCA than Y14899 (per both yfull's estimates and my own).

I would suggest this swings the balance towards the proto-Ashkenazi E-M84 being of a Southern Levant/Red Sea/generic Jewish origin, rather than Anatolian, which might also explain the relatively heavy Egyptian-like aDNA in Ashkenazis. Interestingly, the closest related PF6747 I can find to Z21018 (in terms of STRs) is a modern Armenian.

I am tentatively leaning towards Armenian E-M84 making a more ancient (Bronze Age?) contribution to the Jewish gene pool, which thrived in individuals who were ancestral to proto-Ashkenazis, but was heavily diluted (or not heavily admixed in the first place) into individuals who were ancestral to other Jewish groups. However, I suppose this would be dependent on there being some kind of caste system within early Jewish populations that severely limited admixture between the ancestors of the different groups.

Isn't there some evidence of separation between "the priestly class" (Cohens and Levines?) and others? But if I'm not wrong, Cohen genes appear in different Eastern Mediterranean populations outside of Jews.

I wonder if these LBA Armenians weren't really Armenians but (possibly assimilated) Assyrians living in Armenia? Modern Assyrians are genetically similar to Armenians anyhow, but veer a bit more toward Palestinians whereas Armenians cluster a bit more toward European.

I also wonder if it could alternately be from a Hurrian population from Syria/the Levant (maybe Urkesh)? If Proto-Hurrians were the Kura-Araxes culture but then became their own distinct culture at Urkesh in Syria they could be a genetic bridge between South Caucasians and Levantines. This could be possible if it was the earlier part of the LBA.
 
Isn't there some evidence of separation between "the priestly class" (Cohens and Levines?) and others? But if I'm not wrong, Cohen genes appear in different Eastern Mediterranean populations outside of Jews.
I wonder if these LBA Armenians weren't really Armenians but (possibly assimilated) Assyrians living in Armenia? Modern Assyrians are genetically similar to Armenians anyhow, but veer a bit more toward Palestinians whereas Armenians cluster a bit more toward European.
I also wonder if it could alternately be from a Hurrian population from Syria/the Levant (maybe Urkesh)? If Proto-Hurrians were the Kura-Araxes culture but then became their own distinct culture at Urkesh in Syria they could be a genetic bridge between South Caucasians and Levantines. This could be possible if it was the earlier part of the LBA.
I didn't find it in modern Assyrians, but you could be right about Hurrians or ancient Assyrians. I'll look at other South East European aDNA when I get some time, and also check on other Ashkenazi/Iranian Jewish yDNA that looks Armenian in origin rather than Levantine/Red Sea or European.
 
I have found another population estimated as having a direct trace of Armenian LMBA - modern Southern Italians. The trace is only small, and the profile is not suggestive of Ashkenazi origin, as it does not include an Egyptian-like aDNA component. Instead, I would suggest that Ashkenazis/Iranian Jews and Southern Italians shared a major North West Asian source (most likely dated to the 2nd millennium BC) that included Armenian LMBA and Levantine components. This might be the reason for the genetic similarity between Ashkenazis and Southern Italians, rather than Ashkenazis having migrated through Southern Italy and admixed there en route to their European diaspora.
 

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