Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

Riverman said:
You get the same stuff from the Ukrainian army, in the last 8 years, and now even more so. Nothing is different, just two power groups (Selenski regime, Ukrainian nationalists, US-UK agents and regimes vs. Putin regime, Russian nationalists, Russian separatists). The Ukrainians however were provocative, didn't respect any agreement with Russia and tried to solve the Donbas question with brute force themselves. Again, a diplomatic compromise would have been easy and respect the legimate claims of both sides. The Ukrainians refused, the Russians didn't accept the Ukrainian attack on Russian strategic interests and ethnic minority.

Like you said, every war is dirty, and if the West would present the Ukrainian atrocities and crimes with the same spin and directness as the Russian ones, people would call for bombing Kiev. Its all a spin, its all manipulated, both sides do cruel things, and from what I got so far, the Ukrainian side started it, largely, because the Ukrainian nationalists really hate Russians and wanted to provoke the Russian side to commit the kind of crimes you see now, to have something to blame them for internationally. Its like a dirty talk of a couple, and one side being muted, you always hear just one side smearing the others. That's the Western media.
If you think that's fair and objective, or gives you or anybody else a fair picture of what really happens in Russia, you are delusional.

Its both sides, really. Don't make up a "good guys vs bad guys story", because it's a lie in this case. Sure, the Russians shouldn't have started the invasion, but the Ukrainians shouldn't have treated its own pro-Russian population and the separatists as they did, nor completely ignoring all Russian demands and calls for negotiations. Again both sides. You can pick a starting point for any of these escalations, and you will see it was first this side, then the other, and again and again and again. They are a in a vicious cycle, for years now, largely because of the US interference in the region, and need to get out of it diplomatically, or the conflict will last for years or even escalate to a 3rd World War.
That's the most basic truth about it.
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You again completely underestimate what (creation) of a totalitarian society has consequences in disrespect for human dignity. You makes thinks equal where they are not. Democratic societies don't equal autocratic/ totalitarian ones.

Russian demands and calls for negotiations
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Complete nonsens, they are bulldozing until they get what they want.....

The most basic truth
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is that you are unable to see the ugly totalitarian side of Putin in the face!
 
Northener said:
You again completely underestimate what (creation) of a totalitarian society has consequences in disrespect for human dignity. You makes thinks equal where they are not. Democratic societies don't equal autocratic/ totalitarian ones.
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I'm sure the starving Yemenis or the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis which died appreciate being killed by a democratic state which has so much respect for human dignity. Or the killed Yugoslav citizens, of which many being exposed to radioactive ammunition to this day.

Or even better, being raped, tortured and killed by Ukrainian militias is surely much more pleasant, because "they fight for the right thing".

If you are a Russian civilian in the East, you have just a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea. And as I told you, Ukraine is now a corrupted oligarchic state, which a lot of active US agents, which persecutes and suppresses all Russian activists. Ukraine ended the democratic discourse under the Selenski regime, as they did end the diplomatic options with Russia and the separatists.

Complete nonsens, they are bulldozing until they get what they want.....

is that you are unable to see the ugly totalitarian side of Putin in the face!
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My problem is that I see both the Putin and the Selenski regime with Biden in the back as what they are. You create an ideologically driven narrative which doesn't reflect reality and completely ignorse one sides (Russian state, Russian people, including pro-Russian Ukrainians) perspective.
Putin's regime isn't great, no doubt about it, the question is how much better the Selenski regime is, and the interference of the USA there and elsewhere. And even more, what's a solution to the conflict, to the problem, which costs less lifes and goods. Would have been a fair diplomatic solution, like Russia tried to get it for years, but the Ukrainian regime and the USA just refused.
 
Lots of issues arise, when a country run by an actor is ranked 122 out of 180 on the corruption index.False Flag, donation to help the poor, who to trust with so much corruption? Ukraine ties with Eswatini at 32 points on the corruption index. Zambia,Napalm,Egypt,, Phillipines, Algeria all score 33, or 1 point higher on the corruption index.
 
I'm sure the starving Yemenis or the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis which died appreciate being killed by a democratic state which has so much respect for human dignity. Or the killed Yugoslav citizens, of which many being exposed to radioactive ammunition to this day.

Or even better, being raped, tortured and killed by Ukrainian militias is surely much more pleasant, because "they fight for the right thing".

If you are a Russian civilian in the East, you have just a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea. And as I told you, Ukraine is now a corrupted oligarchic state, which a lot of active US agents, which persecutes and suppresses all Russian activists. Ukraine ended the democratic discourse under the Selenski regime, as they did end the diplomatic options with Russia and the separatists.
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Apparently you can't think of Russia as such, without references! That seems like reasoning that my kids often use, 'yes, but he does it too' and 'he started'. I then respond with if seven jump into a ditch, so do you jump? Perhaps a warped comparison but it does make it clear that all the misery of the world Putin's does NOT excuse Russia that is the gist.


My problem is that I see both the Putin and the Selenski regime with Biden in the back as what they are. You create an ideologically driven narrative which doesn't reflect reality and completely ignorse one sides (Russian state, Russian people, including pro-Russian Ukrainians) perspective.
Putin's regime isn't great, no doubt about it, the question is how much better the Selenski regime is, and the interference of the USA there and elsewhere. And even more, what's a solution to the conflict, to the problem, which costs less lifes and goods. Would have been a fair diplomatic solution, like Russia tried to get it for years, but the Ukrainian regime and the USA just refused.
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Zelenski makes the choice to take steps to de democratic world. Is Ukraine there. No I guess not, nevertheless the aim is clear!

And of course I make it ideological because there is a deep ideological aspect in it....



Russia justifies genocide: state publication explains why Ukraine and Ukrainians must be destroyed


Russian state-owned propaganda outlet RIA published the new programmatic article with the title "What Russia must do with Ukraine". The article reveals a detailed plan for a genocide, starting from full elimination of Ukrainian state.
1) it calls almost every Ukrainian a Nazi who deserves death. "Nazis who took weapons, must be killed in numbers as much as possible... Not just the elites, the most of the people are guilty, they are passive Nazis, Nazi enablers. They supported these elites and must be punished".
2) It foresees tyrannic approach to culture. "Further denacification of the mass of the population is to be reached through ideological repression (oppression) of Nazi ideas and through harsh censorship: not only in politics, but in culture and education areas".
3) it foresees economic and political destruction of Ukraine: "Ukraine must pay for its guilt towards Russia. It must be treated as an enemy, and therefore may develop only in dependency to Russia. No "Marshall plan" may happen. No "neutrality" both ideological or practical".
4) A tyrannical future emerges: "Personnel providing denazification in new denazified republics (plural! - NB) cannot act on another way but only with direct military-police and management support from Russia. Denazification must be a Deukrainisation".
5) Ukraine is the enemy: "The history has proven: Ukraine may not exist as a national state. Any attempt to create it leads to Nazism. Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construct... De-banderisation is not enough... Denazification of Ukraine must be De-Europeazation of it".
6) Deliberate targeting of civilians: "The Bandera-elites must be liquidated, they cannot be re-educated. The social "swamp" who supported them must experience terror of war and learn the lesson, and pay for its guilt".
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That is a clear example of what Claude Lefort describes (wiki):
The organicist vision of society
The totalitarian system, unified and organized, presents itself like a body, the "social body": "dictatorship, bureaucracy and apparatus need a new system of bodies".[17] Lefort returns to the theories of Ernst Kantorowicz on the "two bodies of the king", in which the person of the totalitarian leader, besides his physical and mortal body, is a political body representing the one-people. In order to ensure its proper functioning and to maintain its unity, the totalitarian system requires an Other, "the evil other",[18] a representation of the exterior, the enemy, against which the party combats, "the representative of the forces of the old society (kulaks, bourgeois), [...] the emissary of the stranger, of the imperialistic world".[19]


The division between the interior and the exterior, between the One-people and the Other, is the only division that totalitarianism tolerates, since it is founded upon this division. Lefort insists on the fact that "the constitution of the One-people necessitates the incessant production of enemies"[19] and also speaks of their "invention". For example, Stalin prepared to attack the Jews of USSR when he died, i.e., designing a new enemy, and in the same way, Mussolini had declared that bourgeois would be eliminated in Italy after World War II.


The relation between the one-people and the Other is a prophylactic command: the enemy is a "parasite to eliminate", a "waste". This exceeds the simple rhetorical effect that was commonly used in the contemporary political discourse, yet in an underlying way it is part of the metaphorical vision of the totalitarian society as a body. This vision explained how the existence both of enemies of the state and their presence in the bosom of the population, were seen as an illness. The violence roused against them was, in this organicist metaphor, a fever, a symptom of the fight of the social body against the illness, in the sense that "the campaign against the enemy is feverish: the fever is good, it's the sign, in the society, of the evil to counteract".[20]


The situation of the totalitarian leader within this system is paradoxical and uncertain, for he is at the same time a part of the system – its head, who commands the rest – and the representation of the system – everything. He is therefore the incarnation of the "one-power", i.e., the power executed in all parts of the "one-people".
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Northener said:
Zelenski makes the choice to take steps to de democratic world. Is Ukraine there. No I guess not, nevertheless the aim is clear!
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Selenski made the Ukrainian state more repressive, more autocratic and less democratic. Under his rule Russian POW being tortured, mutilated and killed, illegally, by Ukrainian militias. He did shell and mistreat Donbas civilian residents. He banned Russian as an official language, he banned various media outlets and TV stations, disappropriated people he didn't like, persectued and arrested people his regime didn't like, even killed and assassinated people. They did break the Minsk II agreement, showed absolutely no interest for a peaceful solution, when the Russian offers were really generous.
Now he practically runs a dictatorship, with the support of his oligarch and US masters, as well as the West Ukrainian militias and foreign mercenaries, including radical Jihadists. Ukraine is now as much phased and censored, if not more, than Russia is, with violent and deadly mobs controlling the streets, torturing and killing people on the street and so on and on...

He came into power, with a skewed election campaign, in which he lied and betrayed the Ukrainian people. When he came into power, Ukraine was way more democratic than it is now and there was the real chance for a peaceful solution both sides could live with, Russia and the Ukraine. And he was voted for, even by many pro-Russian people, to come to terms and reconciliate with Russia. Instead, he got pushed by the oligarchs, West Ukrainian nationalists and the US Biden administration to seek confrontation.

And you dare to say "he is on the right way" or "he is the good guy" in this struggle? He is probably not much worse than Putin, probably, but that's the maximum you can say about him. That alone shows how one sided and skewed your perspective, as well as that of most Western phased media is by now. Because once again: Ukraine was more democratic before Selenski and there was a good chance for a fair compromise bringing peace to the region. Selenski ruined it all, with his confrontational course which just pleased the Ukrainian oligarchs he is working for, the US Biden administration, which wanted the conflict, and the Ukrainian nationalists, which just hate the Russians anyway - all Russians, including the civilians in Donbas and the East.
His regime ruined it all!

What did he do for peace or democracy? Really? What did he made any better in Ukraine? Nothing! Just an arrogant, provocative warmonger for the oligarchs and the USA. You can tell me a lot about the innocent victims of this conflict, civilians and soldiers alike, and I agree. You can also tell me about how attacking Ukraine was wrong, was a bad decision by Russia, especially because of humane considerations. But don't tell me anything about this Selenski regime and Biden, and how they are any better.

That is a clear example of what Claude Lefort describes (wiki):
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Putin is just talking, in Ukraine people get tortured and killed by thugs, which don't even care for any rules, any more. Neither for Russian POW, nor for anybody else they just don't like or want to rob. Plenty of stuff, plenty of evidence, but the Western media largely ignored to report about it. The Russians however see this stuff, how "proud Ukrainians" treat pro-Russian people, ethnic Russian civilians and especially the extreme cases mistreatment, torture, mutilation and killing of Russian POW. Obviously, they see it, obviously, they get angry.
The Western media just show one side, they don't show the other. That's totalitarian, absolutely one sided propaganda, again no difference.
 
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Putin is just talking, in Ukraine people get tortured and killed by thugs, which don't even care for any rules, any more. Neither for Russian POW, nor for anybody else they just don't like or want to rob. Plenty of stuff, plenty of evidence, but the Western media largely ignored to report about it. The Russians however see this stuff, how "proud Ukrainians" treat pro-Russian people, ethnic Russian civilians and especially the extreme cases mistreatment, torture, mutilation and killing of Russian POW. Obviously, they see it, obviously, they get angry.
The Western media just show one side, they don't show the other. That's totalitarian, absolutely one sided propaganda, again no difference.
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Really just talking?:LOL:

First of all words do matter. And his talk is really totalitarian.

And ever heard of polonium, where the opposition is poisoned with, or an one way ticket Siberia....like Navalny.

And last but not least crushing ordinary citizens is part of the Russian warcampagne in the Ukraine (just as Putin did/ ordered elsewhere). An individual is nothing in totalitarian collectivism. Disgusting really disgusting.


Selenski made the Ukrainian state more repressive, more autocratic and less democratic......

And you dare to say "he is on the right way" or "he is the good guy" in this struggle?
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I don't consider Zelenksi every inch a good guy, the oligarchy stays a thing and the Pandora Papers were clear. So he is no saint.

Nevertheless he is really the man of the moment he is a great ambassador for the Ukrainians and he is-like Ronald Reagan- a big communicator. That's formidable.

And in the end I support his choice for the EU, I know still a way to go, still the Ukraine under Zelenski is not different to me than Hungary under your buddy Orban.
 
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Angela said:
You can just cut this nonsense out right now or you're going to find yourself banned, like your friend Bebicu. Or maybe you're socks of each other. A Spaniard you're not.

Am I clear?

It's time for the socks and t-rolls to find new homes.
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my goodness, good joke, this thread is troll thread per se, it's not about math or genetic, it's about subjective opinions and sources (depending Russian ones or Ukrainian)
 
vandalorum said:
my goodness, good joke, this thread is troll thread per se, it's not about math or genetic, it's about subjective opinions and sources (depending Russian ones or Ukrainian)
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It's a fact Putin is responsible for the deaths of everyone involved in this conflict since he is the leader of the aggressors.
 
Jovialis said:
It's a fact Putin is responsible for the deaths of everyone involved in this conflict since he is the leader of the aggressors.
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I never denied it
______
#freeYakutia, #freeKarelia, freeDNR/LNR and free Catalonia
 
Dmitry Medvedev, deputy chairman of the Security Council of Russia:

“To change the bloody and full of false myths consciousness of a part of today’s Ukrainians is the most important goal"


“The goal is for the sake of the peace of future generations of Ukrainians themselves and the opportunity to finally build an open Eurasia – from Lisbon to Vladivostok.”

Russian President Vladimir Putin's ally Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday that the killings in Bucha are fake propaganda.


"These are fakes that matured in the cynical imagination of Ukrainian propaganda."





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Northener said:
(...) the opportunity to finally build an open Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok
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You don't like this idea of one country from Lisbon to Vladivostok? :bigsmile:

My impression was you were quite pro-globalist / anti-ethnocentric!
 
Silesian said:
Zambia,Napalm,Egypt,, Phillipines, Algeria all score 33, or 1 point higher on the corruption index.
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Who wouldn't like to live in Napalm? Unfortunately the real name is Nepal. ;)
 
Ailchu said:
haha so funny. once again showing me that i'm right about the polish mindset.
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In case if Germany was invaded, you would be conquered within days - because German men would not fight for such a country. I personally would also not fight for a nation which tells me that I should be ashamed of being Polish and that I should apologize to the world for being born a toxic white male. Which is what the prevalent West Euro mindset is (you teach boys and young men to be ashamed of being males, and of their ethnicity).


German men are ashamed of being Germans, and are ashamed of being toxic white males. They would not be willing to die for Germany.


Unless German men have such low self-esteem that they believe that their destiny is to become cannon fodder, they would not fight.


Because they have nothing to fight for. Why should they fight for a country which disrespects them because they are males, and Germans?
 
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