Genetic study Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

@PT
… the one to one with the “Roman” ETR001 has a MRCA (most recent common ancestry) of 3.1 Generations … :unsure: still :unsure:

Hmm, the MRCA is hard to untangle but given how close ETR001 is to those C6 Romans, but given that one to one result and what I have seen with respect to ETR001 and pretty much every modern Italian population from Marche to the South, I think the autosomal DNA of ETR001 is close to you no doubt. How correlated is T1 mtdna in Italy relative to T1 Y DNA which you and Torzio both have. By that I mean where there is one, is there also the other.
 
Hmm, the MRCA is hard to untangle but given how close ETR001 is to those C6 Romans, but given that one to one result and what I have seen with respect to ETR001 and pretty much every modern Italian population from Marche to the South, I think the autosomal DNA of ETR001 is close to you no doubt. How correlated is T1 mtdna in Italy relative to T1 Y DNA which you and Torzio both have. By that I mean where there is one, is there also the other.


this is mine

my grandfather mtdna - paternal side



Salento is not T1 mtdna
 
Torzio: Sorry, I was referring to ETR001 having mtdna T1a8e per one of Salento's post. So mtdna T1a clades are found in modern Italy today. So while ETR001 might not be exactly T1a1e, Salento noted T1a8e, so your Grandfather's mtdna T1a1e and ETR001 clades are somewhat related clades, yours more common in NE Italy, ETR001 in Central_South maybe?

Thanks for the response.
 
Hmm, the MRCA is hard to untangle but given how close ETR001 is to those C6 Romans, but given that one to one result and what I have seen with respect to ETR001 and pretty much every modern Italian population from Marche to the South, I think the autosomal DNA of ETR001 is close to you no doubt. How correlated is T1 mtdna in Italy relative to T1 Y DNA which you and Torzio both have. By that I mean where there is one, is there also the other.

I don’t remember ever getting a MRCA with an Ancient Sample until now.

I don’t know the mt T to y T correlation.

… maybe it’s irrelevant, but: … my y map ( … and Torzio), the final is in Tuscany, … not far from ETR001:

HkawRSj.jpg



http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html
 
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ETR001 is like Great Grandma, (3.1 generations) … how about that :)

fyi … I used my 23andme v5 Raw-Data for the one-to-one (free) comparison.
 
ETR001 is like Great Grandma, (3.1 generations) … how about that :)

fyi … I used my 23andme v5 Raw-Data for the one-to-one (free) comparison.

Yes, that is really close. The map you showed converging around Tuscany where ETR001 was found is interesting.
 
ETR001 is like Great Grandma, (3.1 generations) … how about that :)

fyi … I used my 23andme v5 Raw-Data for the one-to-one (free) comparison.

Found the time traveler! :LOL:
 
Salento:

Following your post #33, I get this one to one on GEDMATCH with ETR001

h7IhUfO.jpg
 
Salento:

Following your post #33, I get this one to one on GEDMATCH with ETR001

h7IhUfO.jpg

That’s really neat PT, 4.7 gener. :cool-v: we’re Family to the Roman-Etruscan sample :)
 
It seems that modern Italians get great matches for almost 2,000 old people that lived in Italy, be it that they get more "latin-like" ancestry or "Greek-like" ancestry.
Now I wonder whether Italy was at some stage more Latin-like and became stepmeal more Greek-like thanks to the incorporation of Magna Graecia (very unlikely), or wether outside of Latium Italy was already more Greek-like and the spread of this profile in the early imperial period is an effect of the integration of the italic tribes between the late republic and the early empire; the two latin outliers more strongly point to this scenario, though it is an empirical question that only future studies will shed light onto.

On Anthrogenica some have started again to talk about Etruscans and some have earnestly dusted off old nordicist theories, just because they've read a short abstract that on the face of it seems to confirm what the other paper about Rome showed. Time will tell if they will turn out to be right, but I doubt it.
 
It seems that modern Italians get great matches for almost 2,000 old people that lived in Italy, be it that they get more "latin-like" ancestry or "Greek-like" ancestry.
Now I wonder whether Italy was at some stage more Latin-like and became stepmeal more Greek-like thanks to the incorporation of Magna Graecia (very unlikely), or wether outside of Latium Italy was already more Greek-like and the spread of this profile in the early imperial period is an effect of the integration of the italic tribes between the late republic and the early empire; the two latin outliers more strongly point to this scenario, though it is an empirical question that only future studies will shed light onto.

On Anthrogenica some have started again to talk about Etruscans and some have earnestly dusted off old nordicist theories, just because they've read a short abstract that on the face of it seems to confirm what the other paper about Rome showed. Time will tell if they will turn out to be right, but I doubt it.

not you … people use the term ‘Outliers’ too casually,… some with bias to discredit legit samples,

No Latin outliers on the official list:

b20TRzM.jpg


https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf
 
On Anthrogenica some have started again to talk about Etruscans and some have earnestly dusted off old nordicist theories, just because they've read a short abstract that on the face of it seems to confirm what the other paper about Rome showed. Time will tell if they will turn out to be right, but I doubt it.

Indeed. The usual chatter of the clueless. Only very very few users on Anthrogenica show that they have grown over the years, the rest is the usual uneducated nonsense. I take this opportunity to respond to Richard Rocca who writes this "However, I think it premature to not take into account the "diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern Ancestry" they found across the first millennium BCE. As we know, the Etruscans are sometimes seen as an elite that displaced the Umbrians. While some may balk at that, it is the history that was written (granted, by the Romans) and the IE speaking Romans themselves were ruled by non-IE speaking Etruscans."

There are people far more knowledgeable than you who have already taken into account it. Maybe it really is time to start studying these topics seriously too. In etruscology studies the scenario reported does no longer exist. The idea that Etruscans are an elite that displaced the Umbrians was rejected many many many many years ago by archaeology. All Greek accounts on the origins of the Etruscans are no longer considered accounts that contain true events.

Archaeologically, it has been known for over 50 years the presence of foreigners in Etruria: Celts, Greeks (from any part of the Greek worlds), Sardo-Nuragics, Sardo-Punics, Levantine and people from other areas of Italy and Europe. Etruria was for centuries one of the richest regions of Europe, and given the importance of trade in the Etruscan world, it is yet another discovery of hot water that there were foreigners in Etruria. But no scholar with a deep knowledge of the subject relates these foreigners to the origin of the Etruscans. For years. The relationship between the Etruscan and Rhaetic worlds dates back to prehistoric times. Not by chance, the copper of Otzi's axe came from the mines of southern Tuscany. It's quite incredible that everyone talks about Etruscans in 2021 and no one has read a single reference text, and they always repeat the same obsolete and outdated concepts.

These texts in English may help to understand. Studying is not bad for health. Those of you who don't speak Italian are in luck, because today there are excellent texts in English. As an Etruscologist ironically said, be careful about talking nonsense and gibberish about the Etruscans, because the Etruscans will get you back.


- "The Etruscan World", edited by Jean MacIntosh Turfa, Abingdon: Routledge, 2013

- De Grummond, Nancy T. "Ethnicity and the Etruscans". In McInerney, Jeremy (ed.). "A Companion to Ethnicity in the Ancient Mediterranean". Chichester, UK: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. pp. 405–422, 2014

- Smith, Christopher. "The Etruscans: A Very Short Introduction", Oxford University Press, Oxford 2014

- "A Companion to the Etruscans", edited by S. Bell and A. Carpino, Wiley-Blackwell, 2016

- "Etruscology", edited by Alessandro Naso, De Gruyter, Berlin, 2017

- Turfa, Jean MacIntosh. "The Etruscans", in Farney, Gary D.; Bradley, Gary (eds.), "The Peoples of Ancient Italy". Berlin: De Gruyter. pp. 637–672, 2017

- Shipley, Lucy. "The Etruscans: Lost Civilizations", London: Reaktion Books, 2017
 
Indeed. The usual chatter of the clueless. Only very very few users on Anthrogenica show that they have grown over the years, the rest is the usual uneducated nonsense. I take this opportunity to respond to Richard Rocca who writes this "However, I think it premature to not take into account the "diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern Ancestry" they found across the first millennium BCE. As we know, the Etruscans are sometimes seen as an elite that displaced the Umbrians. While some may balk at that, it is the history that was written (granted, by the Romans) and the IE speaking Romans themselves were ruled by non-IE speaking Etruscans."

There are people far more knowledgeable than you who have already taken into account it. Maybe it really is time to start studying these topics seriously too. In etruscology studies the scenario reported does no longer exist. The idea that Etruscans are an elite that displaced the Umbrians was rejected many many many many years ago by archaeology. All Greek accounts on the origins of the Etruscans are no longer considered accounts that contain true events.

Archaeologically, it has been known for over 50 years the presence of foreigners in Etruria: Celts, Greeks (from any part of the Greek worlds), Sardo-Nuragics, Sardo-Punics, Levantine and people from other areas of Italy and Europe. Etruria was for centuries one of the richest regions of Europe, and given the importance of trade in the Etruscan world, it is yet another discovery of hot water that there were foreigners in Etruria. But no scholar with a deep knowledge of the subject relates these foreigners to the origin of the Etruscans. For years. The relationship between the Etruscan and Rhaetic worlds dates back to prehistoric times. Not by chance, the copper of Otzi's axe came from the mines of southern Tuscany. It's quite incredible that everyone talks about Etruscans in 2021 and no one has read a single reference text, and they always repeat the same obsolete and outdated concepts.

These texts in English may help to understand. Studying is not bad for health. Those of you who don't speak Italian are in luck, because today there are excellent texts in English. As an Etruscologist ironically said, be careful about talking nonsense and gibberish about the Etruscans, because the Etruscans will get you back.


- "The Etruscan World", edited by Jean MacIntosh Turfa, Abingdon: Routledge, 2013

- De Grummond, Nancy T. "Ethnicity and the Etruscans". In McInerney, Jeremy (ed.). "A Companion to Ethnicity in the Ancient Mediterranean". Chichester, UK: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. pp. 405–422, 2014

- Smith, Christopher. "The Etruscans: A Very Short Introduction", Oxford University Press, Oxford 2014

- "A Companion to the Etruscans", edited by S. Bell and A. Carpino, Wiley-Blackwell, 2016

- "Etruscology", edited by Alessandro Naso, De Gruyter, Berlin, 2017

- Turfa, Jean MacIntosh. "The Etruscans", in Farney, Gary D.; Bradley, Gary (eds.), "The Peoples of Ancient Italy". Berlin: De Gruyter. pp. 637–672, 2017

- Shipley, Lucy. "The Etruscans: Lost Civilizations", London: Reaktion Books, 2017

If I could give you ten upvotes I would.

How anyone could write such nonsense about the Etruscans when all of this information is available for anyone to read is beyond me.

Nice list, too. "The Etruscan World" compendium is one of the best investments I ever made in a book.

Anyone who hasn't read the available material should have the sense to be silent.
 
The issue of the Etruscans is one of the main problems regarding the IE, because if they also turn out to be P312 in addition to J2 and independently of the outliers that appear, then we could have a case similar to Iberia (Df27 in NO-IE and in IE peoples), i.e. in the Italian peninsula we would have Etruscans R1b-U152 NO-IE and Latins R1b-U152/ Z2103 IE. Regarding Mr Rocca, his work is very respectable, especially regarding my R1b-Df27-Z225 lineage, but he has long since become one of the guardians of the Kurganist orthodoxy. He together with Mr polako and others are trying to sustain an obsolete hypothesis regarding the linkage of r1b-L51>P312 with IE, I really don't think they are very interested in knowing the truth.
 
Indeed. The usual chatter of the clueless. Only very very few users on Anthrogenica show that they have grown over the years, the rest is the usual uneducated nonsense. I take this opportunity to respond to Richard Rocca who writes this "However, I think it premature to not take into account the "diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern Ancestry" they found across the first millennium BCE. As we know, the Etruscans are sometimes seen as an elite that displaced the Umbrians. While some may balk at that, it is the history that was written (granted, by the Romans) and the IE speaking Romans themselves were ruled by non-IE speaking Etruscans."

There are people far more knowledgeable than you who have already taken into account it. Maybe it really is time to start studying these topics seriously too. In etruscology studies the scenario reported does no longer exist. The idea that Etruscans are an elite that displaced the Umbrians was rejected many many many many years ago by archaeology. All Greek accounts on the origins of the Etruscans are no longer considered accounts that contain true events.

Archaeologically, it has been known for over 50 years the presence of foreigners in Etruria: Celts, Greeks (from any part of the Greek worlds), Sardo-Nuragics, Sardo-Punics, Levantine and people from other areas of Italy and Europe. Etruria was for centuries one of the richest regions of Europe, and given the importance of trade in the Etruscan world, it is yet another discovery of hot water that there were foreigners in Etruria. But no scholar with a deep knowledge of the subject relates these foreigners to the origin of the Etruscans. For years. The relationship between the Etruscan and Rhaetic worlds dates back to prehistoric times. Not by chance, the copper of Otzi's axe came from the mines of southern Tuscany. It's quite incredible that everyone talks about Etruscans in 2021 and no one has read a single reference text, and they always repeat the same obsolete and outdated concepts.

These texts in English may help to understand. Studying is not bad for health. Those of you who don't speak Italian are in luck, because today there are excellent texts in English. As an Etruscologist ironically said, be careful about talking nonsense and gibberish about the Etruscans, because the Etruscans will get you back.


- "The Etruscan World", edited by Jean MacIntosh Turfa, Abingdon: Routledge, 2013

- De Grummond, Nancy T. "Ethnicity and the Etruscans". In McInerney, Jeremy (ed.). "A Companion to Ethnicity in the Ancient Mediterranean". Chichester, UK: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. pp. 405–422, 2014

- Smith, Christopher. "The Etruscans: A Very Short Introduction", Oxford University Press, Oxford 2014

- "A Companion to the Etruscans", edited by S. Bell and A. Carpino, Wiley-Blackwell, 2016

- "Etruscology", edited by Alessandro Naso, De Gruyter, Berlin, 2017

- Turfa, Jean MacIntosh. "The Etruscans", in Farney, Gary D.; Bradley, Gary (eds.), "The Peoples of Ancient Italy". Berlin: De Gruyter. pp. 637–672, 2017

- Shipley, Lucy. "The Etruscans: Lost Civilizations", London: Reaktion Books, 2017


I still find it amusing that people want to link an ethnic origin of Etruscans with Rhaeti when their is minuscule evidence ..................below is what scholars of rhaetic stated 3 years ago



The term "Raetic" refers to a few hundred inscriptions found mainly in the Trentino and in South and North Tyrol, as well as sporadically in the Veneto, in Graubünden, and in Slovenia. These inscriptions, written with North Italic alphabets, are roughly dated between the 6th and the 1st centuries BC, and are the only documents of the Raetic language, a non-Indo-European language of the Alpine region.

The Raetic language as documented in inscriptions written in the alphabets of Sanzeno (Bolzano) and Magrè has turned out to be much more homogenous than expected (or hoped) (see Modern research on the Raeti and Raetic). Despite the fact that its uniformity, though long suspected, has been demonstrated only in the 1990ies, linguistic criteria today make for a better basis for the definition of the Raetic corpus than e***raphic parameters.










A full Raetic name consists of two parts: an individual name and a patronym (or possibly also a metronym). The latter is derived from an individual name by suffixation of -nu or -na; on the questions of the relation to Etruscan -na and whether the two variants reflect gender, see the morpheme pages. We have reason to believe that the Raetic patronymic system was productive at the time of it's documentation (Rix 1998: 18 f.) – a number of names are attested both as individual names and as base of a patronym, but most important is the testimony of ST-1, ST-2 and ST-3 with the names of three related men. The following names are attested as both individual name and patronym:

kastrie (kaszrinu)
piθam(n)e (piθamnu)
remi (remina)
visteχa (visteχanu)

Even under the assumption that a considerable number of the names attested in the Raetic corpus are foreign, the lack of parallels with Etruscan in the sphere of onomastics is surprising.
 
The issue of the Etruscans is one of the main problems regarding the IE, because if they also turn out to be P312 in addition to J2 and independently of the outliers that appear, then we could have a case similar to Iberia (Df27 in NO-IE and in IE peoples), i.e. in the Italian peninsula we would have Etruscans R1b-U152 NO-IE and Latins R1b-U152/ Z2103 IE. Regarding Mr Rocca, his work is very respectable, especially regarding my R1b-Df27-Z225 lineage, but he has long since become one of the guardians of the Kurganist orthodoxy. He together with Mr polako and others are trying to sustain an obsolete hypothesis regarding the linkage of r1b-L51>P312 with IE, I really don't think they are very interested in knowing the truth.


These are very popular issues on the forums, especially the one about associating Y-DNA with Iron Age ethnicities, which was fueled by geneticists in the 1990s who were completely unprepared about archaeology and anthropology, like the problem with IE languages was created by Indo-European linguists who still have an outdated and old approach. As Stuvané will be able to confirm, we talk about these things sometimes with academic scholars, and these very popular issues on the forums are not taken so seriously among scholars.


I still find it amusing that people want to link an ethnic origin of Etruscans with Rhaeti when their is minuscule evidence ..................below is what scholars of rhaetic stated 3 years ago

Like it or not, the Etruscan and Rhaetic languages are considered related. Archaeology suggests, along with a number of linguists, that the split between the two languages occurred before the end of the Bronze Age. So, the Raeti are not descended directly from the Etruscans, and the Etruscans are not descended directly from the Raeti either, but the Etruscans and Raeti do indeed have some remote ancestors.


If I could give you ten upvotes I would.

How anyone could write such nonsense about the Etruscans when all of this information is available for anyone to read is beyond me.

Nice list, too. "The Etruscan World" compendium is one of the best investments I ever made in a book.

Anyone who hasn't read the available material should have the sense to be silent.


Grazie mille, Angela.
 
That’s really neat PT, 4.7 gener. :cool-v: we’re Family to the Roman-Etruscan sample :)

Yep, we are not only piasan to ETR001, but famiglia with ETR001. Hey, also kudos to you for keep reminding posters here that R850 is not a statistical outlier as you showed everyone with the Table from Antonio et al 2019. I have a pretty close Deep Dive with R850 and a smaller one with R437 that I saved a copy of, but it dropped out as more samples were added.. Although, R437 is very, very, close distance wise with every Calculator that I run more so than R850.


cDrFCaG.jpg


d4ZXbX3.jpg
 

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