J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

enter_tain said:
And look. From the Middle Bronze Age onwards, Greeks and Albanians experience the same shift from some of their ancient counterparts.

43XcZ69.png

EV-13 and RZ2103 are not Dacian or Thracian or whatever you're spewing. These are markers of the early Bronze age that are common all throughout southern Europe and in the case of RZ2103 to the other side of the Black Sea.
Click to expand...

E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 have a very different pathway from Illyrian J2b-L283 so your "Greek" pseudoscientific hypotheses does not work here.
 
Aspurg said:
Do not mix apples and oranges. Being "close to central Europe" in a modern context doesn't really mean anything. 6000 years ago there were EEF's living all over central Europe and they were alot more Mediterranean than any of these modern populations.

It is not appropriate to compare modern Albanians and Greeks at face value, both have Slavic or other influences, this goes especially for some Greeks.

Based on aDNA samples, we can say that the significant parts of the Eastern Central Europe were also in IA rather Mediterranean autosomally.

So people are imagining modern genetically more Northern Central East Europe that came to be due to Germanic Slavic, Celtic invasions..
Click to expand...

Yes, it definitely means something. Northern Illyrians have WAY more steppe ancestry.

This is the great Daco-Thracian empire according to you :LOL::LOL::LOL:

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


7x6opcpfe1l31.png
 
I kindly once and for all remind everyone that this thread is about Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283 only. If you want to continue talking about obscure "theories" I am sure you'll find more suiting fora.
 
enter_tain said:
And look. From the Middle Bronze Age onwards, Greeks and Albanians experience the same shift from some of their ancient counterparts.


EV-13 and RZ2103 are not Dacian or Thracian or whatever you're spewing. These are markers of the early Bronze age that are common all throughout southern Europe and in the case of RZ2103 to the other side of the Black Sea.
Click to expand...

Z2103 has a very broad application. But V13 was found:
In Pshenichevo culture of Bulgaria, 3 out of 3 samples.
In a Moldavian "Scythian" sample, on that site various Thracian pottery and weapons were found, it was surrounded by Thracian/Getae settlements in close proximity. Autosomally it showed a significant affinity to early EIA Babadag find from Dobruja. And Babadag was a sister culture to Pshenichevo. This Scythian together with Z2103 sample descended of a Babadag culture variant in Moldova.

Babadag-Pshenichevo-Basarabi flooded the whole area what would be known as Thracian in antiquity.

Prior to that we have a Steppe R-Z93 find in a MBA/LBA Bulgarian culture. We also have autosomal profile that was more northern in a related LBA Bulgarian culture.
We have other different profiles and Y-DNA lineages in EBA Bulgaria.. No V13 there...

Conclusion: proto-Thracians (Russian sources usually call Dacians just Northern Thracians) were an EIA/LBA group and they were E-V13 heavy and they caused replacement and displacement of the old pre EIA population in Thracian areas.

3000 year old E-L539 with more Steppe profile was found in a very Eastern Gava culture from the Hungarian-Slovakian-Ukrainian border area.

4000 year old E-L539 with slightly more Steppe than Mokrin was found in Eastern Hungary. Either the Nyirseg or Gyulavarsánd cultures. Also it seems there there is some 4000 year old J2a low steppe sample. It seems some of these cultures in NW Romania was rather very EEF heavy, and this was the reason for Thracians being so "Southern". Also it seems while one E Gava had more Steppe, another R-L51 from the same site had the opposite profile, much closer to Getae-Thracians.

These samples are most important, and from what I get, very few samples are from there, but instantly they showed E..

I use this SNP information from the leaked information, but it almost 100 % certain these were not V12 or V22... One can hardly claim there were any such lineages at that time in the whole area..

Anyway as soon as they test more in Eastern Hungary, in NW Romania, they are going to find the flood of E-V13..

So V13 in BA Hungary should very common but only East of Tisza river. V13 has absolutely little or nothing to do with anything West of Tisza, and especially not anything West of Danube. Anything West of that are either some extremely isolated branches or IA migrants.

All in all regarding the nonsensical claims of your friend Bruzmi, V13 and L283 were never found together pre late Antiquity. And as there are quite a lot of sites already it seems these two were totally different populations.

All in all it seems by all available evidence that the vast majority of proto-Thracians were V13+. Z2103 rather in a far more limited sense.
 
Aspurg said:
Z2103 has a very broad application. But V13 was found:
In Pshenichevo culture of Bulgaria, 3 out of 3 samples.
In a Moldavian "Scythian" sample, on that site various Thracian pottery and weapons were found, it was surrounded by Thracian/Getae settlements in close proximity. Autosomally it showed a significant affinity to early EIA Babadag find from Dobruja. And Babadag was a sister culture to Pshenichevo. This Scythian together with Z2103 sample descended of a Babadag culture variant in Moldova.

Babadag-Pshenichevo-Basarabi flooded the whole area what would be known as Thracian in antiquity.

Prior to that we have a Steppe R-Z93 find in a MBA/LBA Bulgarian culture. We also have autosomal profile that was more northern in a related LBA Bulgarian culture.
We have other different profiles and Y-DNA lineages in EBA Bulgaria.. No V13 there...

Conclusion: proto-Thracians (Russian sources usually call Dacians just Northern Thracians) were an EIA/LBA group and they were E-V13 heavy and they caused replacement and displacement of the old pre EIA population in Thracian areas.

3000 year old E-L539 with more Steppe profile was found in a very Eastern Gava culture from the Hungarian-Slovakian-Ukrainian border area.

4000 year old E-L539 with slightly more Steppe than Mokrin was found in Eastern Hungary. Either the Nyirseg or Gyulavarsánd cultures. Also it seems there there is some 4000 year old J2a low steppe sample. It seems some of these cultures in NW Romania was rather very EEF heavy, and this was the reason for Thracians being so "Southern". Also it seems while one E Gava had more Steppe, another R-L51 from the same site had the opposite profile, much closer to Getae-Thracians.

These samples are most important, and from what I get, very few samples are from there, but instantly they showed E..

I use this SNP information from the leaked information, but it almost 100 % certain these were not V12 or V22... One can hardly claim there were any such lineages at that time in the whole area..

Anyway as soon as they test more in Eastern Hungary, in NW Romania, they are going to find the flood of E-V13..

So V13 in BA Hungary should very common but only East of Tisza river. V13 has absolutely little or nothing to do with anything West of Tisza, and especially not anything West of Danube. Anything West of that are either some extremely isolated branches or IA migrants.

All in all regarding the nonsensical claims of your friend Bruzmi, V13 and L283 were never found together pre late Antiquity. And as there are quite a lot of sites already it seems these two were totally different populations.

All in all it seems by all available evidence that the vast majority of proto-Thracians were V13+. Z2103 rather in a far more limited sense.
Click to expand...

PIE Thracians being E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 is quite clear it will be solidified with the upcoming papers in near future. Generally connecting the pathway of Illyrian J2b-L283 with PIE Thracians is utter non sense.

But to be honest no one here except for some outliers cares about it since this thread is not about the merging of north-shifted Illyrians with the south-shifted Thracian tribes to form Albanians. Also putting this process in the dark ages on the timeline is utter non sense.
 
enter_tain said:
Yes, it definitely means something. Northern Illyrians have WAY more steppe ancestry.

This is the great Daco-Thracian empire according to you :LOL::LOL::LOL:
7x6opcpfe1l31.png
Click to expand...

I see leaked Hungarian paper info having the 3000 years old Gava E-L539 sample clustering with Czech Bell Beakers which means far from subsequent V13 samples. And the 4000 year old E sample being at slightly more than Mokrin level of Steppe, so not totally like IA Thracians in those days. But as I've said another Gava R-L51 from the same site it seems was rather looking like that Moldovan Scythian or even a Thracian sample with much less steppe. It seems in NW Romania/NE Hungary there was some EEF heavy population represented by J2a (Glina-Schneckebnerg etc ?).

Although I am puzzled by J2b and R-L51 IA samples from La Tene paper that seem to be present in Hungarian study, they show more Steppe than I get in G25 for them (if these are those samples), but in general autosomal positions seem correct looking at some other samples from earlier studies.

To this date I know about 36 V13 clades older than 1500 ybp present in Bulgarians, 34 clades in Albanians, 30 in Greeks and Romanians, 20 in Hungarians, haven't counted Serbs yet but plenty I suppose. I can tell you Greek V13's very often cluster closely with Albanians, Bulgarians or Vlachs/Romanians. Isolated ones might be genuinely Greek.
 
Aspurg said:
Z2103 has a very broad application. But V13 was found:
In Pshenichevo culture of Bulgaria, 3 out of 3 samples.
In a Moldavian "Scythian" sample, on that site various Thracian pottery and weapons were found, it was surrounded by Thracian/Getae settlements in close proximity. Autosomally it showed a significant affinity to early EIA Babadag find from Dobruja. And Babadag was a sister culture to Pshenichevo. This Scythian together with Z2103 sample descended of a Babadag culture variant in Moldova.

Babadag-Pshenichevo-Basarabi flooded the whole area what would be known as Thracian in antiquity.

Prior to that we have a Steppe R-Z93 find in a MBA/LBA Bulgarian culture. We also have autosomal profile that was more northern in a related LBA Bulgarian culture.
We have other different profiles and Y-DNA lineages in EBA Bulgaria.. No V13 there...

Conclusion: proto-Thracians (Russian sources usually call Dacians just Northern Thracians) were an EIA/LBA group and they were E-V13 heavy and they caused replacement and displacement of the old pre EIA population in Thracian areas.

3000 year old E-L539 with more Steppe profile was found in a very Eastern Gava culture from the Hungarian-Slovakian-Ukrainian border area.

4000 year old E-L539 with slightly more Steppe than Mokrin was found in Eastern Hungary. Either the Nyirseg or Gyulavarsánd cultures. Also it seems there there is some 4000 year old J2a low steppe sample. It seems some of these cultures in NW Romania was rather very EEF heavy, and this was the reason for Thracians being so "Southern". Also it seems while one E Gava had more Steppe, another R-L51 from the same site had the opposite profile, much closer to Getae-Thracians.

These samples are most important, and from what I get, very few samples are from there, but instantly they showed E..

I use this SNP information from the leaked information, but it almost 100 % certain these were not V12 or V22... One can hardly claim there were any such lineages at that time in the whole area..

Anyway as soon as they test more in Eastern Hungary, in NW Romania, they are going to find the flood of E-V13..

So V13 in BA Hungary should very common but only East of Tisza river. V13 has absolutely little or nothing to do with anything West of Tisza, and especially not anything West of Danube. Anything West of that are either some extremely isolated branches or IA migrants.

All in all regarding the nonsensical claims of your friend Bruzmi, V13 and L283 were never found together pre late Antiquity. And as there are quite a lot of sites already it seems these two were totally different populations.

All in all it seems by all available evidence that the vast majority of proto-Thracians were V13+. Z2103 rather in a far more limited sense.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's also obvious from archaeology, that the Pannonian groups were pushed East of the Tisza by the Middle Danubian Tumulus groups, which led to the formation of Piliny and Pre-G?va, resulting in Kyjatice-G?va/Channelled Ware in the next step.

This doesn't answer where E-V13 was before, but that's where they most likely expanded from, from the Upper Tisza area, between the later MBA to Early Iron Age, with a peak in the LBA-EIA transition. Too bad the resolution is low for the samples. Do you have any idea, when the associated papers might come out?
 
Riverman said:
Too bad the resolution is low for the samples. Do you have any idea, when the associated papers might come out?
Click to expand...

Not necessarily at all, I think they must have a decent quality because for 95 % of R1b samples they have an SNP designation of Z2103+ or L51+. To achieve this samples must be in general of at least some decent quality.

They just released partial SNP information where it was important for them/for numerous haplogroups like with Z2103/L51 or for example I2a1/I2a2 distinction, but where it wasn't like for J2b they just left it at J2b/J2a. One diagram has it just "E" the other E1b1b1a for both E samples.

Few of these samples are in this La Tene paper already and they seem of good quality.

I guess it should be out sometimes this year.
 
has anyone analyzed those samples autosomally. I assume those L283 samples in southern Serbia are Albanian-related, but I heard they had extra CHG that Albanians don't have.
 
Aspurg said:
The only proto-Albanian clades can be those present in both Ghegs and Tosks. And these are:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4465/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y173822/

Is there a single Tosk here?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

I'm not sure.

So why Tosks lack J-L283 and not only do they lack it but they show different clades, they show more of J-Z631 as opposed to Ghegs. It seems some population roaming around carrying Z2705, BY4465 and Y173822 picked up these J2b2 people that were sitting there and "Albanized" them.
Click to expand...

Of course. There is many Tosks under J-PH1751. There is even Arbëreshë (who were largely of Tosk origin), the two samples under J-Y190804 are from Apulia, then there is the Palermo sample under J-Y47962.

There is also some Tosks under J-Y82533 as well, btw.

Furthermore, your answer can be seen in the YFull trees. Where do you think those Greek samples clustering with Albanians got there from. We know southern Albanians migrated to Greece (Arvanites).

In another subclade, I got in contact with sample YF93307 under J-FT29003. The paternal origin is from Malito, Calabria, Italy. He forms a subclade with the Albanian J-FT29003 cluster with a ~3100 ybp TMRCA! Considering the diversity of J-Y21878 is greater in the Balkans than Italy, and the aDNA samples from the western Balkans, we can theorize a migration across the Adriatic sometime within ~3100 ybp. Interestingly enough, Malito, Calabria is mentioned as one of the villages settled by the Arbëreshë people, although the 3100 ybp TMRCA can support a more ancient migration.
 
Trojet said:
Of course. There is many Tosks under J-PH1751. There is even Arbëreshë (who were largely of Tosk origin), the two samples under J-Y190804 are from Apulia, then there is the Palermo sample under J-Y47962.
There is also some Tosks under J-Y82533 as well, btw.
Furthermore, your answer can be seen in the YFull trees. Where do you think those Greek samples clustering with Albanians got there from. We know southern Albanians migrated to Greece (Arvanites).
In another subclade, I got in contact with sample YF93307 under J-FT29003. The paternal origin is from Malito, Calabria, Italy. He forms a subclade with the Albanian J-FT29003 cluster with a ~3100 ybp TMRCA! Considering the diversity of J-Y21878 is greater in the Balkans than Italy, and the aDNA samples from the western Balkans, we can theorize a migration across the Adriatic sometime within ~3100 ybp. Interestingly enough, Malito, Calabria is mentioned as one of the villages settled by the Arbëreshë people, although the 3100 ybp TMRCA can support a more ancient migration.
Click to expand...

Wow! That's the exact date given for Messapian migrations (1982 and 2005 books). I posted this in the other thread

The Iapygians most likely left the eastern coasts of the Adriatic for Italy from the 11th century BC onwards,[25] merging with pre-existing Italic and Mycenean cultures and providing a decisive cultural and linguistic imprint.[7]
 
Neat! Calabrian cousins for my clade = )
What's 3100 years between family?
 
Ain't it amazing guys... it's all #real

Glad to be here with my brothas

From Rasna to Messapia,
From the Alps to Epirus,
From Dardania to Paeonia,

Our ancestors once stretched far and wide

The Greeks and Romans were right thousands of years ago
 
enter_tain said:
Wow! That's the exact date given for Messapian migrations (1982 and 2005 books). I posted this in the other thread

The Iapygians most likely left the eastern coasts of the Adriatic for Italy from the 11th century BC onwards,[25] merging with pre-existing Italic and Mycenean cultures and providing a decisive cultural and linguistic imprint.[7]
Click to expand...

Certainly! That's one of the possibilities (besides Arbëreshë). The TMRCA fits there pretty nicely.
 
Illyria said:
Ain't it amazing guys... it's all #real

Glad to be here with my brothas

From Rasna to Messapia,
From the Alps to Epirus,
From Dardania to Paeonia,

Our ancestors once stretched far and wide

The Greeks and Romans were right thousands of years ago
Click to expand...

We're the last descendants of a once very large group of people. Kind of like modern Irish people and Celts. Although even they are abandoning their language for English.
 
Trojet said:
Of course. There is many Tosks under J-PH1751. There is even Arbëreshë (who were largely of Tosk origin), the two samples under J-Y190804 are from Apulia, then there is the Palermo sample under J-Y47962.
There is also some Tosks under J-Y82533 as well, btw.
Furthermore, your answer can be seen in the YFull trees. Where do you think those Greek samples clustering with Albanians got there from. We know southern Albanians migrated to Greece (Arvanites).
In another subclade, I got in contact with sample YF93307 under J-FT29003. The paternal origin is from Malito, Calabria, Italy. He forms a subclade with the Albanian J-FT29003 cluster with a ~3100 ybp TMRCA! Considering the diversity of J-Y21878 is greater in the Balkans than Italy, and the aDNA samples from the western Balkans, we can theorize a migration across the Adriatic sometime within ~3100 ybp. Interestingly enough, Malito, Calabria is mentioned as one of the villages settled by the Arbëreshë people, although the 3100 ybp TMRCA can support a more ancient migration.
Click to expand...

I see there are some Tosks under PH1751 as was the case in the Arberesh study (few dys19=14 there)

What is the surname of that person, surely documents can give some insight about his whereabouts, Italy has more of that..

Anyway, the fact that Ghegs and Tosks exist and that they separated in Late Antiquity/Early Medieval timeframe enables the identification of original Albanian lineages, those with some age in both groups but not older than late Antiquity..

That you have some of these widespread clusters present in only one of them is indicative that they were picked up by the early Albanians, such as PH2180 or Berisha as well..
 
Aspurg said:
I see there are some Tosks under PH1751 as was the case in the Arberesh study (few dys19=14 there)

What is the surname of that person, surely documents can give some insight about his whereabouts, Italy has more of that..

Anyway, the fact that Ghegs and Tosks exist and that they separated in Late Antiquity/Early Medieval timeframe enables the identification of original Albanian lineages, those with some age in both groups but not older than late Antiquity..

That you have some of these widespread clusters present in only one of them is indicative that they were picked up by the early Albanians, such as PH2180 or Berisha as well..
Click to expand...

PH2180 has a formation date in 500 BC. Albanian language is a separate IE branch since the early days of IE languages, that's 1500-2000 years before PH2180. The core population which spoke ancestral Albanian lived before 500 BC. If some younger E-V13 branches are found only one in region or subgroup, it doesn't mean that it was "picked up" by Proto-Albanians. Parallel branches are found among Albanians and founder effects can have big effects.
 
enter_tain said:
We're the last descendants of a once very large group of people. Kind of like modern Irish people and Celts. Although even they are abandoning their language for English.
Click to expand...
Yep, it's quite fascinating. It's cool that we are part Thracian too. I wonder how similar their languages were, especially in the South Balkans where they seemed to have influenced each other more. Maybe as similar as Spanish & Portuguese? Or like German and Danish?

Speaking of Celts, I'm 4% Irish according to FTDNA, I've noticed Albanians get a few % Irish/Scottish/Welsh on MyHeritage, whereas I get 6% Iberian on MyHeritage and no Irish lol. I know MyHeritage isn't great for DNA, but it's still interesting that it picks up Iberian instead. Any other J2b2 Albanians here score any Irish? Must be from some Celts assimilating into Illyrian tribes
 
New Avar/Hungarian/Panonian samples. Looks like Albanians are most closely related to Panonian Illyrians than Croatian/Slovenian Illyrians. Which is weird because Panonians were more northern... (Although they allied with the Delmetae) They had tons of EV-13 and J2B2/Z638.

There are 3 J2B2-L283 samples, 2 of them fall under the "southern" Z638. Worth noting these are not branches ancestral to Albanians, but are closely related. As per Kelmendasi on Anthrogenica

Three J2b-L283 samples have been confirmed:

1) ALTper77; Early-Middle Avar (620-675 CE); J2b-Y21878* (xY37121)

2) VPBper307; Late Avar Elite (ninth century CE); J2b-Z595* (xAM00228, YP155)

3) SPper2; Conquering Hungarian Elite (tenth century CE); J2b-Z1297* (xCTS1317, Y27523)

Main thing from this:

Z638 is the more southern one so far, but I don't know if it mutated in Albania/Montenegro. It probably mutated in Central Europe 4000 years ago. Northern and Southern Illyrians split before migrating to the Balkans.
 
enter_tain said:
New Avar/Hungarian/Panonian samples. Looks like Albanians are most closely related to Panonian Illyrians than Croatian/Slovenian Illyrians. Which is weird because Panonians were more northern... (Although they allied with the Delmetae) They had tons of EV-13 and J2B2/Z638.
There are 3 J2B2-L283 samples, 2 of them fall under the "southern" Z638. Worth noting these are not branches ancestral to Albanians, but are closely related. As per Kelmendasi on Anthrogenica
Three J2b-L283 samples have been confirmed:
1) ALTper77; Early-Middle Avar (620-675 CE); J2b-Y21878* (xY37121)
2) Z36885; Late Avar Elite (ninth century CE); J2b-Z595* (xAM00228, YP155)
3) SPper2; Conquering Hungarian Elite (tenth century CE); J2b-Z1297* (xCTS1317, Y27523)

Main thing from this:
Z638 is the more southern one so far, but I don't know if it mutated in Albania/Montenegro. It probably mutated in Central Europe 4000 years ago. Northern and Southern Illyrians split before migrating to the Balkans.
Click to expand...

These Z638 samples are too young relative to the age of Z638>Z1297, so they tell us practically nothing about the origins of these branches (mos e nejs ket francuzin me pallavrat kelte/hallstatt/unrfield :LOL:). For all we know, these guys could've migrated up there as late as the the Roman period, considering so far there is zero Z638+ in ancient Hungary/Pannonia. The sample size is huge, I counted 172 Y-DNA/male results. Interestingly enough, there doesn't appear to be a single Z631.

Let's see if we can get deeper subclades once the raw data is published, as that, along with autosomal data, may give us further clues.

In any case, they are likely locals to the Pannonian plain. It should be expected that locals will show up, considering the huge sample size. The authors state:

"Aside from the immigrant core groups we identified that the majority of the individuals from each period were local residents, harboring native European ancestry."
 
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