Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

Riverman said:
Clearly, E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 lived at least close to each others latest since 900 BC.
That predates the modern Albanians, even the Proto-Albanians by a bit.
J-L283 is higher in the North because the Proto-Illyrians came from the North West, possibly at a time E-V13 with Channelled Ware and Yamnaya-KMK related R-Z2103 was already in place. They met between Montenegro, North Albania, Kosovo, Southern Serbia and Macedonia between 1.100-900 BC.
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It depends on what your definition of Proto-Albanian is. Because, Albanians already carried J2b-L283 l, E-V13 and R1b with diversity stretching mostly to the Iron Age and late Bronze Age. E-V13 diversity is mostly between 400-700BCE going by yfull. A couple branches with Albanians going back to the LBA.

Most of these lineages including E-V13 and some minor ones as well, were already a part of pre/early proto-Albanians which is roughly from 1000BCE forward.

The connection to Messapian, the finding of J2b-L283 in Illyrians and Daunians, and the heavy chunk of Latin influence in our language is a testament to a West Balkan origin of Proto-Albanian that solidified into the late proto/old Albanians of the early medieval within the Komani-Kruja cultural complex.

There were surely other loosely related late Proto-Albanians groups that fell outside this development and merged later. Which can account for all the confusion.

It sure as hell wasn't Daco-Thracian or in the Carpathians.
 
I support an origin in Albania of course as the core but I think there was also presence in Dardania and other surrounding areas, many adopted the Latin and Greek language. What survived of these people turned into Albanian and later ''Arbanon'' came to dominate Albania. Or there was a population contraction and then extraction in the last 1500 years, also causing a dialect split.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Riverman you are trying to placate people, by giving each one as a good parent a toy, here some Illyrian for you, some Macedonian for Timmy, etc... but describing Albanians as some ancient creole population that belonged to no culture horizon is even more horrible outcome. And not a great explanation. Such populations with no real identity will not survive any migration crisis, and would more willingly assimilate into imperial identity. The creole explanation would better fit the Vlach/Romanians formation.

The Komani-Kruja culture of 600-900AD (compassing roughly from Montenegrin border to western lake Ohrid), is a urban culture, not pastoral like the early Albanian, people lived in fixed settlements. First inconsistency. Literary inscriptions found are in Latin, suggesting a Latin speaking population lived in this cultural horizan. There are Latin toponyms concentrated in this cultural horizon that are of Dalmatian/Illyrian Latin not Vulgar Latin, and for them to exists in today's Albanian would mean they were inherited from a pre-Albanian population which spoke Illyrian/Dalmatian Latin. We are not dealing here with a Albanian speaking population, and we have to identify who they were. All this points to J2b(with some R1b fellow travelers). Kruja-Komani and linguistic evidence strongly points to Albanian speech not being native to the area, it came from the speculated Nish-Shtip homeland.

To sum up the chronology, North Albania was a refuge area for Illyrians after the Slavic invasions. Later around 900 AD, early Albanians(E-V13 and R1b) settle in the core zone of this culture suppressing and pushing the J2b clades along the banks of Drin river. Around 1300 AD the two populations begin to merge as one(unify against Serbian pressure I assume), the process was finalized by Ottoman invasion (lots of destruction and shuffling of populations). To this day J2b is strongest among frontier Ghegs, recoiled like a serpent around Drin river and it's tributaries.

The people you are trying to placate are arguing linear decent from Bronze Age. If there was no DNA science they would argue times immemorial. They do think they evolved out of the rocks of their villages and when you point out inconsistencies they get offended and defensive, as if you are stealing something from them.
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This is utterly wrong in so many ways. It's really a shame to think someone could be so deluded. Or perhaps there's a clear agenda.

The diversity of J2b-L283, E-V13 and R1b within Albanians stretches back to the LBA and Iron Age. They were present for all stages of the Proto-Albanian ethnogenesis. Actually J2b-L283 and R1b is far more diverse in Albanians that E-V13 which appears to encompass an Iron Age arrival.

E-V13, and R1b didn't arrive in 900AD and absorb J2b-L283 in the 1300s. What in God's good name are you smoking?

These lineages were already part of Proto-Albanians long before the latinuzation process started. Matter of fact E-V13 is more prevelant in latinized populations of the Balkans than J2b-L283 is. But that's something that seems to go over your "J2b-L283 are latinizied Illyrians" mumbo jumbo. With your E-V13/R1b Daco-Thraco-Trojo-Dardanian orig9n of Albanian nonsense.
 
Riverman said:
Nobody really knows at this point, but fact is that there was a wide stretch of land, and modern Albanians are directly in that zone, in which Proto-Illyrian J-L283 and the earlier groups (Thracian E-V13, Phrygian/Brygian R-Z2103 as the main haplogroups?) met. This means we have this mixture of linages minimum 1.000 years before the Antiquity Proto-Albanians were around. They surely assimilated people then too, like some Vlach lineages, some Roman, Greek, Slavic etc., but the basic, main lineages of E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 are very likely to have been close by and intermixed before.
If you want to have E-V13 + R-Z2103 as the primary markers, you have to assume an origin from Thracians or Bryges. Basically, that's primarily a linguistic debate, because then you would have to prove a Thracian origin for Proto-Albanian, instead of an Illyrian one, which would connect with J-L283.
Fact is also that various people existed in the region, which united these groups, like the Srem group = Illyrians with Thracian substrate, Triballi = Thracians with Illyrian influences, Dardanians = Illyrians with Thracian substrate elements.
That alone is quite telling as to how long these people intermixed in the Central Balkans.
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I find it really nonsensical that people can just assign one haplogroup per population like they were some inbred buffoons.

All these lineages were already present within Illyrians. Even if E-V13 was dominant in Thracians, it does not negate that E-V13 was already present in Illyrians where it was offset by more dominant J2b-L283.

These lineages were probably present in all paleobalkan peoples to some degree. Dealing in absolutes is contrary to reality.

Let's wait for those southern arch papers. E-V13 and R1b divided likely somewhere around Pannonia and E-V13 likely took two routes west and East.

Claiming all E-V13 is Daco-Thracian will not have legs likely. The truth is there will be some subclades from Thracians and some from Illyrians.

Because, these people were already mixed by the classical era that recorded their history. Assigning one haplogroup to a people makes zero sense.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Linguistic evidence is pretty clear, Albanian came east of Albania, post Roman collapse. Kruja-Komani culture seem to be Latin speaking Illyrians. If you want to assume proto-Albanians already were loaded with J2b, than it means they replaced the Komani-kruja (J2b) people and brought their own J2b. I can't support that type of explanation.

Among Ghegs themselves, J2b is in high frequency in frontier areas(excluding the Tosk-Gheg frontier which is a low point for Ghegs). J2b has similar story to I2a-Din in south Albania, an assimilated frontier population.

The Albanians that migrated south, did not carry any noticeable presence of J2b. J2b is very low among Tosk, Arvanites and Arberesh, strongly suggesting it was not a early Albanian haplogroup.
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Literal hogwash. You have no idea what you're saying. Do you know what Y-DNA diversity is? Because it sounds like you have no clue.

A simple search would show you that diversity for J2b-L283 jn Albanians among other lineages goes back to the LBA and IA. So your timeline is completely off by 2+ millennia.

Albanian is believed to be most related to Messapian, and J2b-L283 ancients in NW Balkans and Daunians seems to strengthen that fact.

E-V13 is far more common in latinized Balkan populations than J2b-L283 is. But keep claiming J2b-L283 were just some latinized Balkan group that got assimilated only 700 years ago(how bizarre) by E-V13/R1b Thracian Albanians from the East Balkans.

Sound like a Serbian fringe theory propagandist.

News flash, all 3 bloodlines were already carried by Albanians since the LBA/IA. Regardless of whether they were Thracian or Illyrian, a ghost population or a mix thereof.
 
Dibran said:
Albanian is believed to be most related to Messapian, and J2b-L283 ancients in NW Balkans and Daunians seems to strengthen that fact. E-V13 is far more common in latinized Balkan populations than J2b-L283 is. But keep claiming J2b-L283 were just some latinized Balkan group that got assimilated only 700 years ago(how bizarre) by E-V13/R1b Thracian Albanians from the East Balkans.
Sound like a Serbian fringe theory propagandist.
News flash, all 3 bloodlines were already carried by Albanians since the LBA/IA. Regardless of whether they were Thracian or Illyrian, a ghost population or a mix thereof.
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E1b-V13 is very common in Aromanians and other latinized East Balkan groups (they are semi-slavic now) because those don't have anything to do with Illyrians. What do latinized Illyrians (J2b-L283) have to do with latinized Daco-Thracians? Nothing at all.

Sure sure your paternal line is, I assume, also pre Proto-Albanian, right? :LOL:
 
mount123 said:
E1b-V13 is very common in Aromanians and other latinized East Balkan groups (they are semi-slavic now) because those don't have anything to do with Illyrians. What do latinized Illyrians (J2b-L283) have to do with latinized Daco-Thracians? Nothing at all.

Sure sure your paternal line is, I assume, also pre Proto-Albanian, right? :LOL:
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Unlike yourself, I have no delusions of grandeur about my Y-DNA. I know it mostly came from the North East with Slavic tribes and secondarily some other groups of Barbaricum in the early medieval.

You on the other hand my Neo-Kosovan friend, seemed to have forgotten that your father and his father were Albanian. You can grasp at straws with your pet theories all you want.

There is zero evidence Proto-Albanians were Thracian E-V13 inbred that "cucked" latinized Illyrians. They carried all those lineages already.

Even a kid who can read at a 3rd grade level has enough common sense to understand phylogeny of these haplogroups and their diversity within a given population.

If I didn't know any better I would have guessed you a Serb sympathizer. Half of the garbage out your mouth is spouted by their ilk regularly.
 
You and your fellow trolls use the same methodology: ignoring the previous user's valid point whilst making a whataboutistic off topic non evidential pseudo argument. Then you go on with your usual collection of ad hominems.
 
mount123 said:
You and your fellow trolls use the same methodology: ignoring the previous user's valid point whilst making a whataboutistic off topic non evidential pseudo argument. Then you go on with your usual collection of ad hominems.
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You literally dished out a slew of ad hominims on everyone and what valid point? What pseudoscientific argument?

You clowns literally just said J2b-L283 has no diversity in Proto-Albanians and was absorbed in 1300CE.

Do you clowns even look at the actual phylogeny and branch diversity? Both in highest number of branches, ages within the population, and their formation and most recent ancestor?
The evidence is there for anyone to see.

Pseudoscientific is your hogwash about J2b-L283 being latinized Illyrians that were later Albanianized by an Eastern population.

My Y-DNA has no horse in this race. The actual evidence is quite clear. Most J2b-L283 found in Albanian populations stretch back to LBA/IA and so do R1b and lastly E-V13 with most of thst diversity within Albanian populations going from Iron Age onward.

Look at the various trees, branches for yourself. These branches are highly diverse in Albanians regardless if they were further East. Proto-Albanians carried all 3. NW Balkam samples, Daunian samples, and a linguistic level the relation with Messapian all point to a West Balkan origin of Proto-Albanians. And you will see that E-V13 was quite diverse and versatile and not restricted to some inbred concept of "all E-V13 is Daco-Thracian"

and stop spewing World of War craft fantasies.
 
Dibran said:
I find it really nonsensical that people can just assign one haplogroup per population like they were some inbred buffoons.
All these lineages were already present within Illyrians. Even if E-V13 was dominant in Thracians, it does not negate that E-V13 was already present in Illyrians where it was offset by more dominant J2b-L283.
These lineages were probably present in all paleobalkan peoples to some degree. Dealing in absolutes is contrary to reality.
Let's wait for those southern arch papers. E-V13 and R1b divided likely somewhere around Pannonia and E-V13 likely took two routes west and East.
Claiming all E-V13 is Daco-Thracian will not have legs likely. The truth is there will be some subclades from Thracians and some from Illyrians.
Because, these people were already mixed by the classical era that recorded their history. Assigning one haplogroup to a people makes zero sense.
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The special thing about both E-V13 and J-L283 is that they had LBA-EIA founder effect series in different regions and with specific timings
Both haplogroups grew rapidlyand beingnow widespread because they expanded Proto-Thracians (E-V13) and Proto-Illyrians (J-L283).
Many other Neolithic and Bronze Age lineages of similar and larger size largely disappeared, but they grew with the success of the ethnicities and their descendants.
Their fate was bound to those ethnicities in the LBA-EIA transition. Similar story, ended up in the same place and later ethnicities, but different origins and separated ethnicities with a lot of competition in the EIA-MIA.
 
Dibran said:
To be fair, there is a greater diversity of E-V13 in Albanians than Greeks, and it's likely not to have entered Greece until the Iron Age with populations of the North. Presumably related to some Proto-Albanians.
At least this goes for most Greek E-V13. Perhaps Epirotes carried a sizeable amount in their domain, splitting North and South from its nucleus.
Most diversity of E-V13 center around west Balkans and not East. Of course those are dependent on collected samples more than anything else. However, u don't expect it to change.
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Greeks are a larger population than Albanians and they have the same amount of EV-13 (except some pockets like Kosovo). To say EV-13 in Greeks is due to Albanians is pure garbage. We have Y-Dna from Iron Age populations in Serbia. They were EV-13/R1b/J2B2-L283 (although autosomally somewhat divergent). These groups had long mixed all over the Balkans.

This "Ghost EV-13 population" is pure garbage pushed by some Kosovar basement trolls. These guys are bored of "Albania" hogging the limelight so they make fake origin stories. It makes no sense geographically (southern Albanians/Greeks have higher EV13-to-J2B2 ratios), historically (no such recorded events), linguistically (earliest loanwords in Albanian are from Doric), and autosomally (Albanians/Greeks are essentially identical, different than other Balkan groups).
 
Albanians from Albania have become worse than gypsies though. Not only did they backstab Kosovo and started working with Serbia, a state that on a daily basis threatens the existence of Kosovo Albanians, but they even started loving Greeks, a people they brainwashed Kosovo Albanians for so long to dislike.

They also marry Serbs. This whole ''Kosovan'' thing is not a bad thing. I embrace it. It's kinda like Austria.

I say **** Albania. Analbania.
 
Riverman said:
The special thing about both E-V13 and J-L283 is that they had LBA-EIA founder effect series in different regions and with specific timings
Both haplogroups grew rapidlyand beingnow widespread because they expanded Proto-Thracians (E-V13) and Proto-Illyrians (J-L283).
Many other Neolithic and Bronze Age lineages of similar and larger size largely disappeared, but they grew with the success of the ethnicities and their descendants.
Their fate was bound to those ethnicities in the LBA-EIA transition. Similar story, ended up in the same place and later ethnicities, but different origins and separated ethnicities with a lot of competition in the EIA-MIA.
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It looks like Illyrian Glasinac-Mat Culture was just secondary contributor (living to the fringes of Western Dardania) to Dardanian ethnos, the primary one they consider to be the Channeled-Ware (depends if we consider Western Channeled-Ware as contributor to Southern Illyrians then we need a redefinition then), archeologists are unsure what happened with the native Brnjica Culture, where did they go and who were they. That's quite tricky to answer, they might as well be participants of the so called Aegean migration.

Not much to find about their chronology either btw.
 
Hawk said:
It looks like Illyrian Glasinac-Mat Culture was just secondary contributor (living to the fringes of Western Dardania) to Dardanian ethnos, the primary one they consider to be the Channeled-Ware, archeologists are unsure what happened with the native Brnjica Culture, where did they go and who were they. That's quite tricky to answer, they might as well be participants of the so called Aegean migration.
Not much to find about their chronology either btw.
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Actually a lot of the Brnjica ended up at the Lower Danube and contributed to the emerging Thracian mix later.

Others "fled to the hills" and later merged with Channelled Ware in their area of origin.
 
1337 said:
Albanians from Albania have become worse than gypsies though. Not only did they backstab Kosovo and started working with Serbia, a state that on a daily basis threatens the existence of Kosovo Albanians, but they even started loving Greeks, a people they brainwashed Kosovo Albanians for so long to dislike.

They also marry Serbs. This whole ''Kosovan'' thing is not a bad thing. I embrace it. It's kinda like Austria.

I say **** Albania. Analbania.
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Thanks for showing your true colours. Now if only the mods can ban this dude. These forums are filled with mentally ill basement trolls who pretend to have an "educated" point of view and just pollute the common space.
 
Did the language come from ANALbania ? Did the ANALBANIAN language come from ANALBANIA ?

GO LICK RAMAS ASS
 
I already reported him, 1337 is enter_tains another sock_puppet account. He just acts like he is in disagreement so people don't suspect. Mods would do good to ban this mentally ill kid.
 
Have these degenerates banned please. Being the one that pmed Jovialis very far back to reopen this thread I regret it.
I thought it weird that all of a sudden after countless samples shut up a bunch of degenerates and trlls, in one month countless J2bs apearead first sounding reasonable then going full .... Statistically speaking very unlikely event. I guess the trlls are evolving, planet of the imbeciles.
 
1337 said:
Albanians from Albania have become worse than gypsies though. Not only did they backstab Kosovo and started working with Serbia, a state that on a daily basis threatens the existence of Kosovo Albanians, but they even started loving Greeks, a people they brainwashed Kosovo Albanians for so long to dislike.

They also marry Serbs. This whole ''Kosovan'' thing is not a bad thing. I embrace it. It's kinda like Austria.

I say **** Albania. Analbania.
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Spoken like a true Serb. Or an ungrateful Kosovan that forgets Albania opened up the borders to his people, took in refugees, and provided them with food and clothing.

Such backstabbing. Could have left you at the borders starving and ripe for the taking.

Ungrateful Shka.
 
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