Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

@tyuiopman
You write, "
Yes! I'm familiar with Fournet's and Bomhard's theory regarding the Hurro-Urartians having separated from IE prior to Anatolian. It's absolutely fascinating and I believe makes a lot of sense. If Pre-Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the South Caucasus (Armenia/northern Iran) originally, and if Kura-Araxes was Hurro-Urartian speaking (which has been suggested by some researchers and which I ascribe to) it wouldn't be a stretch at all for PIE and Hurro-Urartian to have had a common ancestor--they originated in the same geographic region and probably around the same time. I think I said this in a post some months ago, but I think that within the next couple of decades, PIE will be reoriented to Armenia/Iran and may include Hurro-Urartian, Yamnaya will be called something like "Classic Indo-European."".
Yeah. I also ascribe to what you write above, and i am also a fan of Fournet's and Bomhard's works. Now, that is a whole different discussion, and i have my own share of varying hypotheses, but one pertains to the Dnieper-Donets/Samara cultures and their influence from the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture (6000-4000 BCE). The thing is we don't have enough Neolithic and Eneolithic samples from these significant regions. I personally still don't know of any that relates to the Shulaveri-Shomu culture (especially before 5000 BCE), which based on indirect data seems to be the cause for the considerable increase of the CHG autosomal component we see in the Ukrainian (Dnieper-Donets)/Samara Eneolithic samples. I reason that this migration happened at approximately 5200-5000 BCE, as a result of being displaced to the north by southern invadors, i suspect the Ubaids. These Shulaveri-Shomu people per my understanding, either brought with them a pre-PIE (pre-Proto-Indo-European) or a PNC (Proto-North Caucasian) language, and many of them eventually settled in Khvalynsk. Ancient DNA from this period and the Transcaucasian region is unfortunately pretty scarce, although what we do have does indirectly point to such a possible migratory scenario. Modern DNA does as well. There is much more to add into all these but they are not related to the topic of this thread.

You write, "Fascinating story about Apollo and the raven and Khaldi and the raven--which begs the question, was this a Hurro-Urartian story or a Greco-Armenian story?".
Well, the name could have followed this evolution, Apollo (Greek)<Apaliunas (Trojan)<Apeljōn (Hittite)<Aplu (Hurrian)<Aplu Enlil (Akkadian - Son of Enlil, namely Nergal). As a sidenote, notice that the Etruscan name for Greek God Apollo, was also "Apulu, Aplu". In terms of attributes, they were all solar Gods and related to plague. But i don't think the raven story has anything to do with the origin of the name and even the God's respective attributes. For one, ravens aren't mentioned in any Nergal story that i am aware of. I believe it to be an IE story, and therefore Graeco-Armenian. Ravens were also central in other IE mythologies, like for example Germanic (which includes Norse). Look at "Huginn and Muninn" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn) for example. Odin's pair of ravens. Ravens are also present in Celtic mythology. The aforementioned story could also be Hurro-Urartian in origin, but not much has survived on Hurrian "Aplu" in order to come to any conclusion.

You write, "I wonder if Ana/Ama, etc are prehistoric words that go back (tens) of thousands of years? According to the prevalent theory, Anahid means something like "without blemish" in Iranian. Again, "an" being a negating prefix like "un". The fact that "ano" meant "high" in Ancient Greek is interesting because the Sumerian god of the sky was "Anu." There is a theory that links Anahid to this word.".
Not just words for mother such as Anna/Ana/Ama are so widespread throughout many language families, but also words for father such as Atta/Ata/Aita/Tata. This makes me believe as well that they are remnants of a proto-proto-language, namely Eurasian, because they seem to be absent from Africa. If they were indeed "lallnamen" words, you would expect to find them in Africa as well, but there aren't any based on my knowledge.

We also have this prefix, indicating "something opposite". It has a number of Greek versions, depending on grammatical rules, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1-#Greek. It comes from PIE *n̥-, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:proto-Indo-European/n%CC%A5-#Proto-Indo-European. Now, i don't think this has anything to do with the aforementioned etymologies.

Yeah, i am aware of Sumerian Anu. I believe all these aforementioned etymologies from my previous post are interrelated with Anu as well.

Along this Eurasian approach, maybe the Ainu/Aynu of Japan are also related to this root. In the Ainu/Aynu language, their name translates as "person or mankind". Also the word for father is "Aca" (certainly related to Ata, etc.), while for mother "Nanna" (certainly related to Anna) and "Hapo".

You write, "Supposedly Armenian ian/yan originally came from Iranian or PIE. Originally it was -ean, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, -ian means the same thing in English as it does in Armenian. I do think that some Armenian noble names may come from Urartian. Armenian noble names like Yervanduni, Rshtuni, etc. The possessive marker in Armenian is -i (an "ee" sound in English), which may come from Hurro-Urartian (compare with Urartian -hi/-khi/-ni, which are all variations of "belonging to"--the same as Armenian "ian/yan"). I do think that it's possible that Anahid (Ani) is related to "Hanna" via Urartian "Aiaini"/Inuani," which are probably connected to Inanna too. I think Anahid is also connected to Anath.".
I was unaware of "Aiaini/Inuani" . Yeah, they seem related as well.

You write, "As for the Mushki, there isn't much about them, but we do know that one of their kings was named Mita, which is an Anatolian IE name and generally regarded as being connected to Greek/Phrygian Midas. One theory about the name Mushki is that the root is "mush" or "mush" and the k is the Classical Armenian plural marker "k'" (for example, Armenians still call Persians "Barsik," which literally means "Parsis" in English). Or maybe it's a dialectical version of Urartian "khi" (although the Urartians called them Mushkini)? "Tribe of Mush" (there is a city near Lake Van called Mush). What very little we know about them points toward them being Indo-European. Their allies were the Urumu (as written in Akkadian cuneiform). This could have been Aramu/Arama (U and A were interchangeable in cuneiform). So perhaps Diakonoff was right after all, but he got the direction wrong--they didn't come from the west but came from the east. Long story short, the circumstantial evidence points to them having been an Indo-European people.".
Fair points. There was also the Mush dialect in western Armenia (proper), in the city you mention. Is there any peculiarity in their dialect? Probably it isn't spoken any more after the genocide, but do we know of any peculiarity in relation to it? It is also a western Armenian dialect, like the Hamshen dialect you had mentioned in the past.

You write, "I think that Persian "angaros" makes more sense than Mycenaean "a-ke-ro," especially if "agaros" could be rendered "angalos," however, I think that the idea of Armenian "Angel/Angegh," meaning "invisible"/"supernatural" seems as apt, if not more, than "messenger" (but I've heard this "messenger" theory before). Interesting though how "angaros" does look like a Greek word.".
Greek "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) also translates as "messenger", hence why i also see it as a cognate of the Persian word. It was later introduced into Judeo-Christian theology in replacement of "מַלְאָךְ" (mal’akh) meaning "messenger - both divine and human", therefore taking a religious role, hence why you can attach a supernatural background to it, but originally it wasn't like that.

It's like the other Greek word "ἀγγελιαφόρος" (angeliaphóros) which means "the one who bears the message", namely another word for "messenger", or "ἀγγελία" (angelíā) which means "message". I don't think the root came from Persian, but rather that it was probably common linguistic heritage from earlier. I say this because we find the word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) in the Homeric Epics, centuries before the Greeks came into contact with the Persians. If there is a loanword from Persian, then this is certainly the Greek word "ἀγγαρεία" (angareía), which means "forced labor or task", and we know that delivering messages was a "task".


You write, "I don't think that Trialeti-Vanadzor was Greco-Armenian, it was too late. But I do think that they were Proto-Armenian, and still culturally close enough/in contact with their Proto-Greek (Mycenaean) cousins.".
I want to stress that i don't view Mycenaeans as proro-Greeks, bearing in mind that Mycenaean Greek which is documented to have been spoken from at least 1450 BCE is already fully recognizable Greek, so it must have been Greek for quite a while before. Not to mention that Mycenaean Greek was also dialectal Greek, so its divergence from Proto-Greek must be pushed into the past. Mycenaean Greek was in fact similar to Arcadocypriot Greek (which is considered a direct descendant of the first). I believe Mycenaean divergence from proto-Greek must be dated to the appearance of Minyan ware in the Helladic peninsula, namely 2200-1900 BCE. Therefore proto-Greek would be placed before that horizon.

If we view Trialeti-Vanadzor as IE, as some scholars have suggested, then it could very well be proto-Armenian. But we run again into the question, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, with proto-Greek speakers entering Greece through the Balkans and proto-Armenians through the Caucasus? Or, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in Transcaucasia? Or, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in the Balkans?

If we are to consider Trialeti-Vanadzor proto-Armenian, then the first scenario seems more likely, namely the Pontic-Caspian steppe divergence. That is because Anatolia is absent of any steppe ancestry before the Iron Age, negating the possibility that one or the other moved through Anatolia. But even in that scenario, i believe proto-Greek began its migration towards the Balkans before proto-Armenian began its own towards Transcaucasia. I mean that proto-Greek first left the Pontic-Caspian steppe sometime around 2500 BCE, and then proto-Armenian began its descent around the time of Trialeti-Vanadzor.

If on the other hand proto-Armenian reached Armenia during the Iron Age, it is almost certain that it must have diverged in the Balkans.

I personally exclude the southern Anatolian route for proto-Greek, exactly because of this absence in steppe ancestry throughout Anatolia, at least before the Iron Age.

I wonder if Apishlu/Apislu, the name of the Kaskas who were allied with the Mushki and Urumu, is somehow related to Apollo. The Apishlu may have been Hattian and not Indo-European, but officially, just like the Mushki and Urumu, they are unclassified.

I didn't make the connection to Odin's ravens--very interesting!

"Not just words for mother such as Anna/Ana/Ama are so widespread throughout many language families, but also words for father such as Atta/Ata/Aita/Tata. This makes me believe as well that they are remnants of a proto-proto-language, namely Eurasian"--my conclusion as well.

I believe that the Mushki are thought to have/recorded as having settled in the vicinity of Mush. There was (or still is) a Mush dialect of Western Armenian. I guess it's still spoken in parts of northern Armenia and Georgia by the descendants of people from Mush who fled to the Russian Empire during the Genocide. I don't really know enough to get into the mechanics of what makes it unique or how it compares with Hamshen Armenian, however. I'm assuming that they both have a fair amount of Turkish (and Iranian) loans but Hamshen probably has more Turkish influence than Mush dialect, if I had to venture to guess. But I'd imagine that the modern Mush dialect has been influenced by Yerevan Armenian and Russian too. Here's some comparisons between various Armenian dialects, including Mush dialect and Hamshetsi: https://www.academia.edu/38064007/T...s_editor_Hans_Henrich_Hock_vol._6_2018_46-105

Mush dialect is used in a lot of folk songs, but the Polis (Constantinople/Istanbul) dialect is considered the standard Western Armenian dialect.

I'm starting to think that Greek and Armenian separated in the Steppes, honestly, prior to the Balkans or South Caucasus. If Armenian is as close to Indo-Iranian as it is Greek, it would suggest that they all split off prior to migrating south or east since nobody thinks that Indo-Iranians were in the Balkans or South Caucasus prior to being in Central Asia-->South Asia. There is some evidence to suggest that there was a Steppe Indo-European presence in Armenia by 2200 BCE, and potentially a century or two earlier (i.e. Steppe-derived horse skeletons, possibly Steppe genes). If the Armani were indeed Armenian-speakers, I think it's possible that they established trading colonies in southeastern Turkey in the middle of 3rd millennium BCE, perhaps controlling the metal trade between Mesopotamia and the Steppes. Armenians are still known as metalworkers and merchants, so this wouldn't be out of character. Besides the name Armani and Arra-ti and some Sumerian words in Armenian and some Armenian-looking words in Sumerian, I have no concrete evidence of this, however. But there were Assyrian colonies into the Hittite heartland, so I'm not sure why there couldn't have been Steppe intrusions into Hittite or Assyrian territory, especially because it seems they were all trading with each other.

Interestingly, the ~2500 BCE date pops up quite a bit. The legendary patriarch Hayk supposedly established the Armenian nation in 2492 BCE. Also, according to one of the tables I believe that you linked me over the summer, there was an R1b1a1 individual found in Kalavan near Lake Sevan and dated to between 2619-2465 BCE (this is exactly where Martirosyan places the proto-Armenians and this is thought to be the Proto-Armenian Y-haplogroup, if I understand correctly). Also, Armani was mentioned in the Ebla Tablets (obviously further south in SE Turkey or northern Syria) around the same time. So perhaps some ventured further south into Mesopotamia at this time?

So I think the Caucasus route for Armenians and the Balkan route for Greeks are both certainly possible. It seems like the scholarship is veering toward them separating in the Steppes anyhow.

Edit: Forgot to mention Shulaveri-Shomu--I think that they seem good for Pre-Proto IE. Right location. Right time period. Likely genetic influence. Seems to have developed partially into Kura-Araxes (which could support Fournet's/Bomhard's theory about Hurro-Urartian--perhaps they were the ones that stayed behind?) If I recall correctly, Kartvelians claim to come from NE Turkey, like Pontus area (Tzani/Lazica).
 
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@tyuiopman
You write, "
I wonder if Apishlu/Apislu, the name of the Kaskas who were allied with the Mushki and Urumu, is somehow related to Apollo. The Apishlu may have been Hattian and not Indo-European, but officially, just like the Mushki and Urumu, they are unclassified.".
Personally i don't view them as related. The "Apishlu" you refer to is actually the exonym version recorded by Assyrian king Tiglath-Pileser I in the 12th century BCE, to render one of the Kaskian tribal names, "Abešla". Supposedly, this Kaskian tribal name is a cognate with the Abkhazian endonym "Aṕswaа", but personally i am not so certain of this.


Kaskian has been speculated to belong to both Kartvelian and Hattian. I will agree with Itamar Singer (RIP) that it was more likely related to Hattic. Some others speculate that Kaskians were simply displaced Hattians from central Anatolia who sough
t refuge in the mountains and lived a life of anarchy there. That could be the reason why they never gave up fighting the Hittites and were possibly one of the reasons of the Hittite Empire's fall.

By the way, the more correct version of the name, namely "Kaška" (as is in Hittite records), brings to mind the legendary forefather of the Vainakhs (Chechen and Ingush), "Kaukas/Kavkas" (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucas). Which by the way, is where the word "Caucasus" derives from.

All these also bring to mind the ancient Cretan word of aforementioned "χαλκός" (khalkós) meaning "copper", which is "καυχός" (kaukhós). And we do know that the root "khal-/chal-" is related with the metallurgical people "Khaldi/Chaldoi/Chalybes" we were discussing. To me the roots of Khaldi, Kaška, and Kaukas all seem etymologically related.


You write, "
I'm starting to think that Greek and Armenian separated in the Steppes, honestly, prior to the Balkans or South Caucasus. If Armenian is as close to Indo-Iranian as it is Greek, it would suggest that they all split off prior to migrating south or east. There is some evidence to suggest that there was a Steppe Indo-European presence in Armenia by 2200 BCE, and potentially a century or two earlier (i.e. Steppe-derived horse skeletons, possibly Steppe genes). If the Armani were indeed Armenian-speakers, I think it's possible that they established trading colonies in southeastern Turkey in the middle of 3rd millennium BCE, perhaps controlling the metal trade between Mesopotamia and the Steppes. Armenians are still known as metalworkers and merchants, so this wouldn't be out of character. Besides the name Armani and Arra-ti and some Sumerian words in Armenian and some Armenian-looking words in Sumerian, I have no concrete evidence of this, however. But there were Assyrian colonies into the Hittite heartland, so I'm not sure why there couldn't have been Steppe intrusions into Hittite or Assyrian territory, especially because it seems they were all trading with each other.".
This view is somewhat along the lines of the "Graeco-Aryan" or "Graeco-Armeno-Aryan" hypothesis, which proposes a common ancestor for the Greek, Armenian, and Indo-Iranian languages, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan. I am personally keeping an open mind about all possibilities since further research is required. In the end, these are still very hypothetical views. But i want to stress that i am personally more in favor of the "Graeco-Armenian" hypothesis, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian. In any case, it has been suggested that the eastern successor of the "Yamnaya culture", namely the "Poltavka culture", was proto-Indo-Iranian. While the western successor of the "Yamnaya culture", namely the "Catacomb culture", has been suggested as the origin of the proto-Greeks among other groups.

Along these lines, there was recently an article by Eurogenes (Davidski) which could corroborate for an early steppe (Catacomb culture) migration towards T
ranscaucasia, http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/catacomb-armeniamlba.html.

As for your last point on steppe IE intrusion of Assyrian territory. Well Mitanni were known to have had an IE ruling class (evidently Indo-Aryan), therefore they surely were present in the region during the middle of the 2nd millennium BCE. The same has also been suggested for the second wave of the Hyksos in Egypt. While the majority of the Hyksos is thought to have been Semitic, the Hyksos are usually believed to have contained Indo-Europeans and Hurrians as well. There were two Hyksos waves into Egypt. The first was certainly Semitic and entered at around 1800 BCE. The second wave at around 1650 BCE which gave rise to the 15th Dynasty under "Salitis" is thought to have been more mixed.


You write, "
Interestingly, the ~2500 BCE date pops up quite a bit. The legendary patriarch Hayk supposedly established the Armenian nation in 2492 BCE. Also, according to one of the tables I believe that you linked me over the summer, there was an R1b1a1 individual found in Kalavan near Lake Sevan and dated to between 2619-2465 BCE (this is exactly where Martirosyan places the proto-Armenians and this is thought to be the Proto-Armenian Y-haplogroup, if I understand correctly). Also, Armani was mentioned in the Ebla Tablets (obviously further south in SE Turkey or northern Syria) around the same time. So perhaps some ventured further south into Mesopotamia at this time?".
I had totally forgotten about this Kalavan male sample. He is included in the excel file i shared a couple of posts ago. He belongs to Y-DNA R1b1a1 and mtDNA X2f. But R1b1a1 cannot be considered proto-Armenian, it's too much of an early line, namely Neolithic.

The dates in relation to the legendary conflict between Hayk and Bel are interesting nonetheless. Both 2492 BCE (Armenian traditional chronology) and 2107 BCE (Mikael Chamchian).


You write, "
So I think the Caucasus route for Armenians and the Balkan route for Greeks are both certainly possible. It seems like the scholarship is veering toward them separating in the Steppes anyhow.".
Yeah, i like this hypothesis as well.

You write, "
Edit: Forgot to mention Shulaveri-Shomu--I think that they seem good for Pre-Proto IE. Right location. Right time period. Likely genetic influence. Seems to have developed partially into Kura-Araxes (which could support Fournet's/Bomhard's theory about Hurro-Urartian--perhaps they were the ones that stayed behind?) If I recall correctly, Kartvelians claim to come from NE Turkey, like Pontus area (Tzani/Lazica).".
Bomhard has a different view though in terms of PIE. He has come up with the "Caucasian Substrate hypothesis", which deals with the following statement of his, "Evidence will be presented to demonstrate that Proto-Indo-European is the result of the imposition of a Eurasiatic language — to use Greenberg’s term — on a population speaking one or more primordial Northwest Caucasian languages.". By the way, even David Anthony cautiously supports his views. Here is his updated paper (2019), https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335676918_The_Origins_of_Proto-Indo-European_The_Caucasian_Substrate_Hypothesis_JIES_Volume_47_Number_1_2_SpringSummer_2019_pre-print. An older version (2015) which is on Academia is outdated.

As for Proto-Kartvelian, it is placed around northeastern Anatolia and western Transcaucasia, which is more or less where its descendants are spoken today. Probably something like this.
Proto-Kartvelian.png
 
@tyuiopman
You write, "
I wonder if Apishlu/Apislu, the name of the Kaskas who were allied with the Mushki and Urumu, is somehow related to Apollo. The Apishlu may have been Hattian and not Indo-European, but officially, just like the Mushki and Urumu, they are unclassified.".
Personally i don't view them as related. The "Apishlu" you refer to is actually the exonym version recorded by Assyrian king Tiglath-Pileser I in the 12th century BCE, to render one of the Kaskian tribal names, "Abešla". Supposedly, this Kaskian tribal name is a cognate with the Abkhazian endonym "Aṕswaа", but personally i am not so certain of this.


Kaskian has been speculated to belong to both Kartvelian and Hattian. I will agree with Itamar Singer (RIP) that it was more likely related to Hattic. Some others speculate that Kaskians were simply displaced Hattians from central Anatolia who sough
t refuge in the mountains and lived a life of anarchy there. That could be the reason why they never gave up fighting the Hittites and were possibly one of the reasons of the Hittite Empire's fall.

By the way, the more correct version of the name, namely "Kaška" (as is in Hittite records), brings to mind the legendary forefather of the Vainakhs (Chechen and Ingush), "Kaukas/Kavkas" (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucas). Which by the way, is where the word "Caucasus" derives from.

All these also bring to mind the ancient Cretan word of aforementioned "χαλκός" (khalkós) meaning "copper", which is "καυχός" (kaukhós). And we do know that the root "khal-/chal-" is related with the metallurgical people "Khaldi/Chaldoi/Chalybes" we were discussing. To me the roots of Khaldi, Kaška, and Kaukas all seem etymologically related.


You write, "
I'm starting to think that Greek and Armenian separated in the Steppes, honestly, prior to the Balkans or South Caucasus. If Armenian is as close to Indo-Iranian as it is Greek, it would suggest that they all split off prior to migrating south or east. There is some evidence to suggest that there was a Steppe Indo-European presence in Armenia by 2200 BCE, and potentially a century or two earlier (i.e. Steppe-derived horse skeletons, possibly Steppe genes). If the Armani were indeed Armenian-speakers, I think it's possible that they established trading colonies in southeastern Turkey in the middle of 3rd millennium BCE, perhaps controlling the metal trade between Mesopotamia and the Steppes. Armenians are still known as metalworkers and merchants, so this wouldn't be out of character. Besides the name Armani and Arra-ti and some Sumerian words in Armenian and some Armenian-looking words in Sumerian, I have no concrete evidence of this, however. But there were Assyrian colonies into the Hittite heartland, so I'm not sure why there couldn't have been Steppe intrusions into Hittite or Assyrian territory, especially because it seems they were all trading with each other.".
This view is somewhat along the lines of the "Graeco-Aryan" or "Graeco-Armeno-Aryan" hypothesis, which proposes a common ancestor for the Greek, Armenian, and Indo-Iranian languages, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan. I am personally keeping an open mind about all possibilities since further research is required. In the end, these are still very hypothetical views. But i want to stress that i am personally more in favor of the "Graeco-Armenian" hypothesis, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian. In any case, it has been suggested that the eastern successor of the "Yamnaya culture", namely the "Poltavka culture", was proto-Indo-Iranian. While the western successor of the "Yamnaya culture", namely the "Catacomb culture", has been suggested as the origin of the proto-Greeks among other groups.

Along these lines, there was recently an article by Eurogenes (Davidski) which could corroborate for an early steppe (Catacomb culture) migration towards T
ranscaucasia, http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/catacomb-armeniamlba.html.

As for your last point on steppe IE intrusion of Assyrian territory. Well Mitanni were known to have had an IE ruling class (evidently Indo-Aryan), therefore they surely were present in the region during the middle of the 2nd millennium BCE. The same has also been suggested for the second wave of the Hyksos in Egypt. While the majority of the Hyksos is thought to have been Semitic, the Hyksos are usually believed to have contained Indo-Europeans and Hurrians as well. There were two Hyksos waves into Egypt. The first was certainly Semitic and entered at around 1800 BCE. The second wave at around 1650 BCE which gave rise to the 15th Dynasty under "Salitis" is thought to have been more mixed.


You write, "
Interestingly, the ~2500 BCE date pops up quite a bit. The legendary patriarch Hayk supposedly established the Armenian nation in 2492 BCE. Also, according to one of the tables I believe that you linked me over the summer, there was an R1b1a1 individual found in Kalavan near Lake Sevan and dated to between 2619-2465 BCE (this is exactly where Martirosyan places the proto-Armenians and this is thought to be the Proto-Armenian Y-haplogroup, if I understand correctly). Also, Armani was mentioned in the Ebla Tablets (obviously further south in SE Turkey or northern Syria) around the same time. So perhaps some ventured further south into Mesopotamia at this time?".
I had totally forgotten about this Kalavan male sample. He is included in the excel file i shared a couple of posts ago. He belongs to Y-DNA R1b1a1 and mtDNA X2f. But R1b1a1 cannot be considered proto-Armenian, it's too much of an early line, namely Neolithic.

The dates in relation to the legendary conflict between Hayk and Bel are interesting nonetheless. Both 2492 BCE (Armenian traditional chronology) and 2107 BCE (Mikael Chamchian).


You write, "
So I think the Caucasus route for Armenians and the Balkan route for Greeks are both certainly possible. It seems like the scholarship is veering toward them separating in the Steppes anyhow.".
Yeah, i like this hypothesis as well.

You write, "
Edit: Forgot to mention Shulaveri-Shomu--I think that they seem good for Pre-Proto IE. Right location. Right time period. Likely genetic influence. Seems to have developed partially into Kura-Araxes (which could support Fournet's/Bomhard's theory about Hurro-Urartian--perhaps they were the ones that stayed behind?) If I recall correctly, Kartvelians claim to come from NE Turkey, like Pontus area (Tzani/Lazica).".
Bomhard has a different view though in terms of PIE. He has come up with the "Caucasian Substrate hypothesis", which deals with the following statement of his, "Evidence will be presented to demonstrate that Proto-Indo-European is the result of the imposition of a Eurasiatic language — to use Greenberg’s term — on a population speaking one or more primordial Northwest Caucasian languages.". By the way, even David Anthony cautiously supports his views. Here is his updated paper (2019), https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335676918_The_Origins_of_Proto-Indo-European_The_Caucasian_Substrate_Hypothesis_JIES_Volume_47_Number_1_2_SpringSummer_2019_pre-print. An older version (2015) which is on Academia is outdated.

As for Proto-Kartvelian, it is placed around northeastern Anatolia and western Transcaucasia, which is more or less where its descendants are spoken today. Probably something like this.
View attachment 11559

Ah yes, Abesla! I remember that now! Thanks. Yes, I agree, the comparison with Abkhazian is kind of weak.

The Mitanni emerged around 1500 BCE. The same with whoever the potential Kassite Indo-Iranian/Indic contacts were. And as you mentioned, the second Hyksos wave was around the same time. The early (apparently Steppe) Indo-European presence in Armenia was around 2300 BCE (see Verin and Nerkin Naver, etc). So 800 years before the emergence of Indo-Iranians/Indics in the Middle East. Plus, as far as we know, the Mitanni, etc. were not in the Aragats and Sevan regions. So if these 3rd millennium sites in Armenia were indeed Indo-European as many researchers have suggested, it's likely that they were not made by Indo-Iranians. The two best options are Armenians or Anatolian IEs. If Anatolians IEs were not Steppe-derived, and these Armenian specimens/horses were Steppe-derived, it is suggestive that they were probably Armenian-speakers, unless there was another Indo-European language present in Armenia that died out unbeknownst to us (the Mushki? Somebody else?) Since these locations play a role in Armenian mythology and the burial practices are consistent with legendary Armenian burial rites, it points to them probably being Armenians. This is a big reason why I think Armenians came straight down from the Steppes as opposed to a more circuitous western route.

I don't necessarily believe this, and I know that there are alternate, and probably better explanations, but there is a theory connecting the Hyksos to the Hayk'. However, its generally agreed that they were a blend of Hurrian and Indo-Europeans of uncertain origins, so maybe it's not that outside the realm of possibility. You mentioned Salitis, the Hyksos ruler, has been compared to Zaluti, the Umman Manda ruler. The Umman Manda homeland is generally placed in Armenia, although their cultural/linguistic affiliation is usually identified as Indo-Iranian or Hurrian.

As for that DNA sample, northern Armenia is where Hrachya Martirosyan places the earliest Proto-Armenian presence in Armenia--basically from Mt. Ararat to Lake Sevan. Kalavan is located on Lake Sevan.

Thanks for the Anthony article, I am looking forward to reading it!

One last thing--the name Kartlos (from which the Kartvelians apparently take their name) seems to fit in well with your iron/metal theory as well.

As for Greek connections, the surviving Hayasan kings' names--Hakkani/Hukkana, Karanni/Lanni, Mariyas, Anniyas and some of the Urartians kings' names--Argisti, Menua(s)--could have Greek analogs. Karanni has been compared to Karanos. Argisti to Argus+di. Menua(s) I believe to Minas. Obviously Mita to Midas. Mushegh to Mursilos. Some of these seem to have had Hittite or Luwian origins and that were loaned to Armenian and Greek.
 
Speaking of the Black Sea, there is an ancient, pagan Armenian legend that survived into the Christian-era (I think maybe mentioned by Moses of Khorene) about Tork Angegh, who was a (possibly physically hideous and/or blind) hero. The surviving tale of Tork Angegh involves him hurling massive boulders from shore at invading enemy ships in the Black Sea. Presumably this is a legendary account of a real historical battle. This could support the Hayasa theory. But I wonder if these invaders were Greek seafarers en route to Georgia, perhaps?

Incidentally, the name "angegh" seems to mean "unseen" literally, but perhaps we would use the word "invisible" today. I think in this context it was used to mean something like "supernatural." "An" is a negating denotation, related to "un" in English. "Gegh" comes from PIE "wel." So at one time "angegh" was "angel" in Proto or Pre-Classical Armenian. The Greek word "angelos" is believed to have been loaned into Greek from another language. Personally, I believe that it came from Armenian.

To me, this is supportive of further, very ancient, contacts between Armenians and Greeks.

I think you do not know what you say,

can you tell us what is an angel?
what means the word angel?
and why not Greek?
 
I think you do not know what you say,

can you tell us what is an angel?
what means the word angel?
and why not Greek?

I haven’t seen you being active lately, what happened?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
@tyuiopman
You write, "
The Mitanni emerged around 1500 BCE. The same with whoever the potential Kassite Indo-Iranian/Indic contacts were. And as you mentioned, the second Hyksos wave was around the same time. The early (apparently Steppe) Indo-European presence in Armenia was around 2300 BCE (see Verin and Nerkin Naver, etc). So 800 years before the emergence of Indo-Iranians/Indics in the Middle East. Plus, as far as we know, the Mitanni, etc. were not in the Aragats and Sevan regions. So if these 3rd millennium sites in Armenia were indeed Indo-European as many researchers have suggested, it's likely that they were not made by Indo-Iranians. The two best options are Armenians or Anatolian IEs. If Anatolians IEs were not Steppe-derived, and these Armenian specimens/horses were Steppe-derived, it is suggestive that they were probably Armenian-speakers, unless there was another Indo-European language present in Armenia that died out unbeknownst to us (the Mushki? Somebody else?) Since these locations play a role in Armenian mythology and the burial practices are consistent with legendary Armenian burial rites, it points to them probably being Armenians. This is a big reason why I think Armenians came straight down from the Steppes as opposed to a more circuitous western route.".
The Necropolises of Nerkin and Verin Naver are indeed very interesting. They complement the Hayk/Bel dates as well. I haven't looked much into those but i will when i find some time. In addition to the previous article by Eurogenes that i shared, here is another where he writes of Chalcolithic steppe migrations into Transcaucasia, http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/11/steppe-ancestry-in-chalcolithic.html. Namely before the aforementioned Necropolises, but it goes on to show that steppe migration into Transcaucasia was early and could have been periodic in frequency.

You write, "I don't necessarily believe this, and I know that there are alternate, and probably better explanations, but there is a theory connecting the Hyksos to the Hayk'. However, its generally agreed that they were a blend of Hurrian and Indo-Europeans of uncertain origins, so maybe it's not that outside the realm of possibility. You mentioned Salitis, the Hyksos ruler, has been compared to Zaluti, the Umman Manda ruler. The Umman Manda homeland is generally placed in Armenia, although their cultural/linguistic affiliation is usually identified as Indo-Iranian or Hurrian.".
The bulk of the Hyksos population was most certainly Semitic. It is the upper classes that appear more mixed, specifically in relation to the second wave. There was a segment of either a paper or a book i had read many months ago that gave etymologies on the Hyksos names, but i cannot find it. Nonetheless i do like the Salitis/Zaluti relation. But, the Hyksos IE names as well as the Umman Manda have been mostly associated with Indo-Aryan peoples. Especially the Umman Manda, i have seen them related to the Medes. "Umman Manda" in Akkadian means "troops of Manda". Furthermore, the more precise name of the Medes, namely "Māda/Mādai", could be related to "Manda".

You write, "Thanks for the Anthony article, I am looking forward to reading it!".
It's actually Allan Bomhard's paper. David Anthony, namely the author of the famous book "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" simply commented on it. You may read Bomhard's response to the comments here, https://www.academia.edu/39993204/Response_to_the_Comments_JIES_Volume_47_Number_1_and_2_Spring_Summer_2019_pre-print_. It was published in the Journal of Indo-European Studies (Volume 47 - 2019). In addition to David Anthony, John Colarusso and Frederik Kortlandt were even more supportive. Of course i personally have a somewhat more varying hypothesis on PIE, which is nonetheless related to Bomhard's and Fournet's views.

You write, "One last thing--the name Kartlos (from which the Kartvelians apparently take their name) seems to fit in well with your iron/metal theory as well.".
Yeah, it could be related. Read this "Etymology" segment as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartli#Etymology.

You write, "
As for Greek connections, the surviving Hayasan kings' names--Hakkani/Hukkana, Karanni/Lanni, Mariyas, Anniyas and some of the Urartians kings' names--Argisti, Menua(s)--could have Greek analogs. Karanni has been compared to Karanos. Argisti to Argus+di. Menua(s) I believe to Minas. Obviously Mita to Midas. Mushegh to Mursilos. Some of these seem to have had Hittite or Luwian origins and that were loaned to Armenian and Greek.".
Certainly, there are relations. But i wouldn't give credit to Hittite and/or Luwian for all of these. Some could indeed be Graeco-Armenian while others Hurrian.
 
An angel is a religious, spiritual being. Spiritual beings are often invisible.

The Greek word "angelos" is considered to be a loan into Greek from another, eastern language. https://www.etymonline.com/word/angel

Demitrios' Iranian etymology suffices.


Angel is from Greek
Αγγελος virb Aγγελω
and means messenger



Angel is the messenger
either by God, either by governor, either by what ever

But Angel is messenger that brings Good News.

there are 3 kind of messenger
the one who brings good news is Αγγελος Αγγελειν Αγγελιαν (messenger pronouncing good news)
the one who brings a message of order, of justice etc is Μηνυτης from μηνυω
and the who brings governors voice is Κηρυκας


So
Angel from pure Greek Αγγελος = God's messenger
God's messages are always good,

Notice

Ω ξειν, αγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι

-22-728.jpg



iWD8F0r8ofhEQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEPj3QRb4VfwPPfgwWflnGkYAAAAASUVORK5CYII=


IT IS PURE GREEK

Notice

Euaggelion = eu+aggelia = Good News
Eu-
angel-ist = the 4 writers of Gospel books at New Testament, from Ευαγγελιστης -Euangelistis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists
 
Last edited:
There is no reason to be offensive mate. His comments/views aren't expressed in a negative way.

you are right,
I think I repair it,

plz erase the quote.
 
Angel is from Greek
Αγγελος virb Aγγελω
and means messenger



Angel is the messenger
either by God, either by governor, either by what ever

But Angel is messenger that brings Good News.

there are 3 kind of messenger
the one who brings good news is Αγγελος Αγγελειν Αγγελιαν (messenger pronouncing good news)
the one who brings a message of order, of justice etc is Μηνυτης from μηνυω
and the who brings governors voice is Κηρυκας


So
Angel from pure Greek Αγγελος = God's messenger
God's messages are always good,

Notice

Ω ξειν, αγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι

-22-728.jpg



iWD8F0r8ofhEQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEPj3QRb4VfwPPfgwWflnGkYAAAAASUVORK5CYII=


IT IS PURE GREEK

Notice

Euaggelion = eu+aggelia = Good News
Eu-
angel-ist = the 4 writers of Gospel books at New Testament, from Ευαγγελιστης -Euangelistis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists

According to Demetrios, it's either Mycenaean or Iranian. The link I provided suggested that it was a loan. If it's a loan, it's not "pure Greek." If it's an Iranian loan, it may only have been present in Greek for 3000 years. If it's an Armenian loan (and maybe not even a loan, but a Greco-Armenian word), it could have a lot earlier presence in Greek.

I think Demitrios' Iranian etymology makes a lot of sense, but I don't think that my theory regarding Armenian "angegh" is completely ridiculous either. You're thinking about this term through a Christian lens, and maybe that's not exactly the right way to view them.
 
"The Necropolises of Nerkin and Verin Naver are indeed very interesting. They complement the Hayk/Bel dates as well. I haven't looked much into those but i will when i find some time. In addition to the previous article by Eurogenes that i shared, here is another where he writes of Chalcolithic steppe migrations into Transcaucasia, http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/11/steppe-ancestry-in-chalcolithic.html. Namely before the aforementioned Necropolises, but it goes on to show that steppe migration into Transcaucasia was early and could have been periodic in frequency."

Which is exactly why I thought it was possible that there were colonies established in southern Turkey/northern Syria, such as Armani. I'm still curious too who made the Alaca Tombs if not Hittites.

"The bulk of the Hyksos population was most certainly Semitic. It is the upper classes that appear more mixed, specifically in relation to the second wave. There was a segment of either a paper or a book i had read many months ago that gave etymologies on the Hyksos names, but i cannot find it. Nonetheless i do like the Salitis/Zaluti relation. But, the Hyksos IE names as well as the Umman Manda have been mostly associated with Indo-Aryan peoples. Especially the Umman Manda, i have seen them related to the Medes. "Umman Manda" in Akkadian means "troops of Manda". Furthermore, the more precise name of the Medes, namely "Māda/Mādai", could be related to "Manda".

We are in agreement here. I think the proposed etymology was Egyptian?

"It's actually Allan Bomhard's paper. David Anthony, namely the author of the famous book "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" simply commented on it. You may read Bomhard's response to the comments here, https://www.academia.edu/39993204/Response_to_the_Comments_JIES_Volume_47_Number_1_and_2_Spring_Summer_2019_pre-print_. It was published in the Journal of Indo-European Studies (Volume 47 - 2019). In addition to David Anthony, John Colarusso and Frederik Kortlandt were even more supportive. Of course i personally have a somewhat more varying hypothesis on PIE, which is nonetheless related to Bomhard's and Fournet's views."

Ah. I see. What do you mean that you have more varying hypothesis on PIE?

"Yeah, it could be related. Read this "Etymology" segment as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartli#Etymology."

Thanks. I wonder, then, if Kartvelian is just a really early IE language branch?

"Certainly, there are relations. But i wouldn't give credit to Hittite and/or Luwian for all of these. Some could indeed be Graeco-Armenian while others Hurrian."


Very good point.
 
According to Demetrios, it's either Mycenaean or Iranian. The link I provided suggested that it was a loan. If it's a loan, it's not "pure Greek." If it's an Iranian loan, it may only have been present in Greek for 3000 years. If it's an Armenian loan (and maybe not even a loan, but a Greco-Armenian word), it could have a lot earlier presence in Greek.

I think Demitrios' Iranian etymology makes a lot of sense, but I don't think that my theory regarding Armenian "angegh" is completely ridiculous either. You're thinking about this term through a Christian lens, and maybe that's not exactly the right way to view them.


Ok

Lesson No 1 in Linguistics,

A loan keeps its Sounds, and does not change,

example,

Greek Aggelos becomes Angel
Greek Euaggelistis becomes Evagelist
Greek Basiliki becomes Basilica
as
Iranian qurabiye becomes κουραμπιες
word corvette, enter as Loan κορβεττα,
etc

SO the possibility the word Aggelos to be a loan in Greek
by Armenian angegh IS TOTTALY A FANTASY, AND ABSOLUTELY WRONG
cause then it would be Aggeghos Αγγεγχος

notice,
the word computer is the today international term,
if translated in Greek is υπολογιστης
BUT if used as loan its κομπιουτερ

So the posibility the word Aggelos to be a loan in Greek is absolutely Wrong
Theories out of laws, are wrong,

The word Aggelos is pure Greek
and possible IE origin
and it might/possible be connected with
Germanic Gale
Slavic Slovo

except if you can prove that a phthongue, a sound of PIE turns to 'gh in Armenian and 'l to Greek



plz Notice
English House -> Housekeeping / house holdings
Greek Οικος -> οικονομια (economia)
but as loan in English is economy
LOANS KEEP THE ORIGINAL SOUNDS
 
@tyuiopman
You write, "
Which is exactly why I thought it was possible that there were colonies established in southern Turkey/northern Syria, such as Armani. I'm still curious too who made the Alaca Tombs if not Hittites.".
Yeah, the Alaca Höyük tombs are very obscure in terms of who made them. But i do believe they were IE. Identity-wise there have been multiple proposals. Are you aware of any genetic publications in relation to them?

You write, "
We are in agreement here. I think the proposed etymology was Egyptian?".
Yes, the name "ὑκσώς" (hyksṓs) is the Greek rendering of Egyptian "ḥqꜣ-ḫꜣst" (heqa-khaset), meaning "rulers of foreign lands". But i wasn't referring to this etymology, but rather the individual names of their Kings. Unfortunately i cannot find it in order to share it.

You write, "
Ah. I see. What do you mean that you have more varying hypothesis on PIE?".
First of all, i suspect two independent Caucasian events to have taken place.

The first, to have been from the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture, at approximately 5200-5000 BCE, as a result of being displaced to the north by southern invadors, i suspect the Ubaids. These Shulaveri-Shomu people per my understanding, either brought with them a pre-Proto-Indo-European or a Proto-North-Caucasian language, and many of them eventually settled in Khvalynsk. Ancient DNA from this period and the Transcaucasian region is unfortunately pretty scarce, although what we do have does indirectly point to such a possible migratory scenario. Modern DNA does as well.


Second, i see a following Transcaucasian migration which settled in the northwest Caucasus, at approximately 4500-4000 BCE, which i term "pre-Maykop". This "pre-Maykop" migration is archaeologically corroborated by a number of raised fortresses which were evidently introduced from Transcaucasia. I am certain this second migration is what gave rise to the Proto-Northwest-Caucasian languages as well as played its part in the formation of PIE, where we would later see the formation of the proper Maykop culture, beginning at approximately 3900 BCE. Therefore per my view, PIE was formed in the broader Maykop region (not necessarily culture) when Khvalynsk's pre-PIE and pre-Maykop's PNWC met, between 4500-3900 BCE.


On the other hand, if the first migratory event brought a PNC language to Khvalynsk, instead of a pre-PIE language, then PIE most likely formed in Khvalynsk, and was only later affected by PNWC through interaction at the steppe Maykop outliers. Nonetheless both of the above migratory events evidently happened.


I do have corroborating evidence for the above, but i am not trying to expand. In any case, i am open-minded to all scenarios and not dogmatic about what i write.


You write, "
Thanks. I wonder, then, if Kartvelian is just a really early IE language branch?".
Kartvelian is an independent language family, nonetheless it is widely thought that Proto-Kartvelian interacted with Indo-European at a relatively early date. Along the same lines, i do find interesting the medieval Georgian legend of hailing from a place called "Aryan-Kartli" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Kartli).

**************************************************************************************************************************

PostScript: In regards to "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) i had written that i don't think the root came from Persian, but rather that it was probably common linguistic heritage from earlier. I say this because we find the word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) in the Homeric Epics, centuries before the Greeks came into contact with the Persians. If there is a loanword from Persian, then this was certainly the Greek word "ἀγγαρεία" (angareía), which means "forced labor or task" in Greek, a
nd we know that delivering messages was a "task". Furthermore, the Greeks knew of the Persian institution known as "ἀγγαρήιον" (angareion) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angarium). Herodotus had written about it at approximately 440 BCE, but again this was way after the first appearance of the Greek word "ἄγγελος" (ángelos). Last, the the subjugation of Ionia by the Persians and the Ionian Revolt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Anatolia#The_subjugation_of_Ionia_and_the_Ionian_Revolt_(500%E2%80%93493_BC)) happened at approximately 500 BCE.
 
you are right,
I think I repair it,

plz erase the quote.
I tried deleting my comment but i don't see any button that relates, therefore i simply edited it by leaving some dots. I don't think deleting comments is possible for non-admins.
 
Well this is an exaggeration. Here is an example:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kirche


Indeed, you have just proved how correct is linguistic law, :cool-v:
with your example, instead of breaking down the law :wink:

Κυριακον -Kiriak(on) -> Kir(ia)k -> Kirk -> Kirk-(he)
possibly due to Latin alphabet and preach the K turn to C,
typical among Latin and Greek, the C-K change
example
βασιλικ(η) basilic(a)


as you see the sounds remain the same.

Kiriak(on) Kirk(he)

SO LOANS DO KEEP THEIR ORIGINAL SOUNDS

Kiriak-on -> Kirk-he -> Kirc-he (due to latin alphabet-grammar)
Basilik-e -> Basilic-a (due to latin alphabet-grammar)
here both Greek K and Latin C have same sound

oposite version example
Latin compono->compositus,
English composite, compost,
Greek komposta

LOANS KEEP THEIR ORIGINAL SOUND
 

Indeed, you have just proved how correct is linguistic law, :cool-v:
with your example, instead of breaking down the law :wink:

Κυριακον -Kiriak(on) -> Kir(ia)k -> Kirk -> Kirk-(he)
possibly due to Latin alphabet and preach the K turn to C,
typical among Latin and Greek, the C-K change
example
βασιλικ(η) basilic(a)


as you see the sounds remain the same.

Kiriak(on) Kirk(he)

SO LOANS DO KEEP THEIR ORIGINAL SOUNDS

Kiriak-on -> Kirk-he -> Kirc-he (due to latin alphabet-grammar)
Basilik-e -> Basilic-a (due to latin alphabet-grammar)
here both Greek K and Latin C have same sound

oposite version example
Latin compono->compositus,
English composite, compost,
Greek komposta

LOANS KEEP THEIR ORIGINAL SOUND

the ch in kirche is not pronounced as kh but as ch, deeper in the throat. in swiss german you have chilchä, or chilä. so there is quite a lot missing from the original word an k is ch, r is l.
 
Ok

Lesson No 1 in Linguistics,

A loan keeps its Sounds, and does not change,

example,

Greek Aggelos becomes Angel
Greek Euaggelistis becomes Evagelist
Greek Basiliki becomes Basilica
as
Iranian qurabiye becomes κουραμπιες
word corvette, enter as Loan κορβεττα,
etc

SO the possibility the word Aggelos to be a loan in Greek
by Armenian angegh IS TOTTALY A FANTASY, AND ABSOLUTELY WRONG
cause then it would be Aggeghos Αγγεγχος

notice,
the word computer is the today international term,
if translated in Greek is υπολογιστης
BUT if used as loan its κομπιουτερ

So the posibility the word Aggelos to be a loan in Greek is absolutely Wrong
Theories out of laws, are wrong,

The word Aggelos is pure Greek
and possible IE origin
and it might/possible be connected with
Germanic Gale
Slavic Slovo

except if you can prove that a phthongue, a sound of PIE turns to 'gh in Armenian and 'l to Greek



plz Notice
English House -> Housekeeping / house holdings
Greek Οικος -> οικονομια (economia)
but as loan in English is economy
LOANS KEEP THE ORIGINAL SOUNDS

I did not realize that the Greek word was aggelos originally. The reconstructed original Armenian word I was talking about was not angegh but angel, from PIE *wel. I already linked this https://www.etymonline.com/word/angel, which states " from Greek angelos, literally "messenger, envoy, one that announces," in the New Testament "divine messenger," which is possibly related to angaros "mounted courier," both from an unknown Oriental word (Watkins compares Sanskrit ajira- "swift;" Klein suggests Semitic sources)."

You're right, the Gh in Armenian=L in Greek, but I believe that this must be a Classical or post-Classical phenomenon. Regardless, that sound change is exactly my point.

Personally, I don't know what you're so offended by. I'm not even sure what you're arguing at this point, I a) never said that I was right and b) also conceded that Demitros' suggestions were better.

The conversation was about pre-Classical Armenian and Greek connections.
 
"Yeah, the Alaca Höyük tombs are very obscure in terms of who made them. But i do believe they were IE. Identity-wise there have been multiple proposals. Are you aware of any genetic publications in relation to them?"

Yes. It seems that the consensus is that the people who made the Alaca tombs were Indo-European but I know that some top Hittitologists (or at least Macqueen) doubted that they were created by an Anatolian IE culture such as the Hittites. I used to wonder if maybe they were pre-Mycenaean Greeks, but you (who are much more knowledgable about Greek history than I am) have compelling theories that the Greeks came from the north of Greece and not east (the builders of Alaca seem to have come from the Caucasus/Pontus). I wonder if they were Phrygians?

No, I haven't seen any genetic studies about the inhabitants.



Yes, the name "ὑκσώς" (hyksṓs) is the Greek rendering of Egyptian "ḥqꜣ-ḫꜣst" (heqa-khaset), meaning "rulers of foreign lands". But i wasn't referring to this etymology, but rather the individual names of their Kings. Unfortunately i cannot find it in order to share it.

Zaluti seems Hurrian to me. I'd be interested in seeing a list of their kings/etymologies if you do stumble upon them again at some time.


First of all, i suspect two independent Caucasian events to have taken place.

The first, to have been from the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture, at approximately 5200-5000 BCE, as a result of being displaced to the north by southern invadors, i suspect the Ubaids. These Shulaveri-Shomu people per my understanding, either brought with them a pre-Proto-Indo-European or a Proto-North-Caucasian language, and many of them eventually settled in Khvalynsk. Ancient DNA from this period and the Transcaucasian region is unfortunately pretty scarce, although what we do have does indirectly point to such a possible migratory scenario. Modern DNA does as well.


Second, i see a following Transcaucasian migration which settled in the northwest Caucasus, at approximately 4500-4000 BCE, which i term "pre-Maykop". This "pre-Maykop" migration is archaeologically corroborated by a number of raised fortresses which were evidently introduced from Transcaucasia. I am certain this second migration is what gave rise to the Proto-Northwest-Caucasian languages as well as played its part in the formation of PIE, where we would later see the formation of the proper Maykop culture, beginning at approximately 3900 BCE. Therefore per my view, PIE was formed in the broader Maykop region (not necessarily culture) when Khvalynsk's pre-PIE and pre-Maykop's PNWC met, between 4500-3900 BCE.


On the other hand, if the first migratory event brought a PNC language to Khvalynsk, instead of a pre-PIE language, then PIE most likely formed in Khvalynsk, and was only later affected by PNWC through interaction at the steppe Maykop outliers. Nonetheless both of the above migratory events evidently happened.


I do have corroborating evidence for the above, but i am not trying to expand. In any case, i am open-minded to all scenarios and not dogmatic about what i write.


Fascinating.


Kartvelian is an independent language family, nonetheless it is widely thought that Proto-Kartvelian interacted with Indo-European at a relatively early date. Along the same lines, i do find interesting the medieval Georgian legend of hailing from a place called "Aryan-Kartli" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Kartli).

Yes. They definitely (long) have influences from Greek, Iranian, and Armenian though. What I meant was, I wonder if they split off from the main body of PIE early, like Fournet/Bomhard suggest Hurro-Urartian did.


PostScript: In regards to "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) i had written that i don't think the root came from Persian, but rather that it was probably common linguistic heritage from earlier. I say this because we find the word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) in the Homeric Epics, centuries before the Greeks came into contact with the Persians. If there is a loanword from Persian, then this was certainly the Greek word "ἀγγαρεία" (angareía), which means "forced labor or task" in Greek, and we know that delivering messages was a "task". Furthermore, the Greeks knew of the Persian institution known as "ἀγγαρήιον" (angareion) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angarium). Herodotus had written about it at approximately 440 BCE, but again this was way after the first appearance of the Greek word "ἄγγελος" (ángelos). Last, the the subjugation of Ionia by the Persians and the Ionian Revolt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Anatolia#The_subjugation_of_Ionia_and_the_Ionian_Revolt_(500%E2%80%93493_BC)) happened at approximately 500 BCE.

All very interesting. Thank you. What does "
ἀγγελίη" mean?
 

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