Bosnians/ ethnic groups there

Bosnian Catholics are people from Bosnia not from Croatia
and bosnian catholics are similar to bosnian muslims or orthodox
and different geneticly to Croatians in Croatia this is prooved Fact.

Bosnian Christians are only victims of centaurie long Propaganda of
our Neighbourgs thats all they are bosnians christs and not serbs or croats.
In 19th they all Bosnian People said they are Bosnian but today they are victims
but the TRUTH WILL WINS.
 
You have not only a Islamophobia you have a Turkcomplex too
why that??? Its your Forfathers from Anatolia than go search your Family
but please stop here your stupid complex comments your Homeland is Asia.

All Pyramid Experts in the World that was in Bosnia said thats Pyramids and they found many archoelogical artifacts.
Islam is not the religion of Illyrian people.

I don't know why people come here and argue for Islam or Christianity when we know that these are not indigenous beliefs of the Illyrian people. These religious wars are slavery for the people. Not only did they cause us to fight for Europeans who show no regard or intellectual ability, but they also made us kill each other.

I do not understand why Islam has perverted Illyrian culture, but if you truly believe yourself to be Illyrian, you would not believe in Mohammed.

Otherwise, you're just accusing others while, himself, acting the part of the accused.
 
Bosnian Catholics are people from Bosnia not from Croatia
and bosnian catholics are similar to bosnian muslims or orthodox
and different geneticly to Croatians in Croatia this is prooved Fact.

Bosnian Christians are only victims of centaurie long Propaganda of
our Neighbourgs thats all they are bosnians christs and not serbs or croats.
In 19th they all Bosnian People said they are Bosnian but today they are victims
but the TRUTH WILL WINS.
This depends on what Croatians you are making the inference with. If it's Croatians north of the Dinaric Alps, then, yes. We are different. If you're comparing Croatians that are well protected by the Alps, then, no, I do not see justification for this remark.

Everyone knows Croatians north of the Alps are partisani.
 
Islam is not the religion of Illyrian people.

I don't know why people come here and argue for Islam or Christianity when we know that these are not indigenous beliefs of the Illyrian people. These religious wars are slavery for the people. Not only did they cause us to fight for Europeans who show no regard or intellectual ability, but they also made us kill each other.

I do not understand why Islam has perverted Illyrian culture, but if you truly believe yourself to be Illyrian, you would not believe in Mohammed.

Otherwise, you're just accusing others while, himself, acting the part of the accused.

That is absolut stupid what you are say here why you speak about
Religions and Mohammed this is soooo poor from you.

Egypts, Persians and all the other cultures today Muslims but they Blood
in they Venes is the same and when in 5000 Years we believe in nothing
than our Blood is the same RELIGION IS HERE ABSOLUT NOT IMPORTANT.
 
Dalmatia in Croatia this People are absolut different to northcroatians
but they similar to Bosnians dalmatia must back to Mother Bosnia thats
Dalmatias Home but that never will be and Dalmatia must Cry like a Baby
without Mother.
 
That is absolut stupid what you are say here why you speak about
Religions and Mohammed this is soooo poor from you.

Egypts, Persians and all the other cultures today Muslims but they Blood
in they Venes is the same and when in 5000 Years we believe in nothing
than our Blood is the same RELIGION IS HERE ABSOLUT NOT IMPORTANT.
I don't understand the significance of your point.

Are you defending Islam? You really need to argue more articulately. No one is going to take you seriously, because your posts have no logical hierarchy.

If your point is that religions enslave the world, therefore why do cultures absorb them only to be enslaved, then I agree with you.
 
Please stop speak about Religions this is not the right place for Religions.
 
All this greatest Anthropologist and other Academics Worldwide said that Bosniaks are a Illyrian Race and Nativ Balkanpeople: Angel, Bounak, Coon, Debetz, Ewing, Gherassimov, Hasluck, Morant, Levin, Oudaltsev, Poulianos, Tovarev, Koumaris, Wilkes, Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many many others and then we got the Genetic facts from Igenea, Genograpic, Familytreedna and all the other Genetic Results.....
 
Bosnians are an invented identity after the collapse of Yugoslavia. When Yugoslavia was created after WW1 it was the kingdom of the sloviens, croats and serbs. Bosnians, macedonians, kosovars, montinegrins are all artificially created identities in order to divide that country. Learn about nationalism and 'imagined communities' and you will see this is the truth. What is the real difference between a bosnian to a serb or croat? religion? is that all you need to be distinctive? If I change my religion to a different one from my family does that make me a different nationality apart from them? things to think about. What is the real difference between a montinegrin and a serb? political boarders? what is the real difference from a macedonian and a bulgarian? propaganda? what is the real difference between a kosovar and an albanian? I think you see my point.
 
First of I don’t se why you guys are getting in to religion. We are talking about something that predates the invention of these religions. Things seem to spin down to childish remarks.

The question is who were the Illyrian tribes (do note TRIBES) as I don’t believe that they were a homogenized group. Argument for this is the size of the area that was defined as Illyrian. I believe that they were a diverse group in genes and culture.

The debates that x – Yugoslav people have is modern self identity debate that tries to create a homogenous country identity. That’s all.

For me it is interesting because I am interested in how national identity is formed. And the split up of Yugoslavia has been interesting and provided a lot of data.

The basic formula is to make others invader and ones self as the rightful hair by trying to make links to the distant past.

The simple truth is you are all right and wrong… you have all have a genetic link to the area and none of you have an exclusive right to it.

Slovenians have been good at creating a self identity that focuses on the future and not get stuck on obsessing on the past.

It is much healthier to have a vision for a great future as part of ones self identity. Rather then obsessing on a great past.

As the topic is on Bosnians and who they are, ill try and give my opinion on that.

They have a link to the Illyrian tribes of the area. With strong influence from Slavic culture and genes that came to the area 6th - 8th after this the ottoman occupation left a cultural impression - That’s how simple it is. Its over simplefied i admit but thouse are the key things.
 
Wise words of Mesa Selimovic, well known writer from Bosnia about so-called "Bosniaks" and their lost identity:

"We are no one's, always at a boundary, always someone’s dowry. Is it a wonder then that we are poor? For centuries now we have been seeking our true selves, yet soon we will not know who we are, we will forget that we ever wanted anything; others do us the honour of calling us under their banner for we have none, they lure us when we are needed and discard us when we have outserved the purpose they gave us. We remain the saddest little district of the world, the most miserable people of the world, losing our own persona and nor being able to take on anyone else's, torn away and not accepted, alien to all and everyone, including those with whom we are most closely related, but who will not recognise us as their kin. We live on a divide between worlds, at the border between nations, always at a fault to someone and first to be struck. Waves of history strike us as a sea cliff. Crude force has worn us out and we made a virtue out of a necessity: we grew smart out of spite.

So what are we? Fools? Miserable wretches? The most complex people in the world. No one is such a joke of history as we are. Only yesterday we were something that we now wish to forget, yet we have become nothing else. We stopped half way through, flabbergasted. There is no place we can go to any more. We are torn off, but not accepted. As a dead-end branch that streamed away from mother river has neither flow, nor confluence it can rejoin, we are too small to be a lake, too big to be sapped by the earth. With an unclear feeling of shame about our ancestry and guilt about our renegade status, we do not want to look into the past, but there is no future to look into; we therefore try to stop the time, terrified with the prospect of whatever solution might come about. Both our brethren and the newcomers despise us, and we defend ourselves with our pride and our hatred. We wanted to preserve ourselves, and that is exactly how we lost the knowledge of our identity. The greatest misery is that we grew fond of this dead end we are mired in and do not want to abandon it. But everything has a price and so does our love for what we are stuck with."


It is really hard to accept a fact that your grandfathers were christian Serbs and they converted to Islam when Turks came. It is more prospective to imagine yourselves as some imaginary Illyrians or Bogumils earlier. Your history is quite clear and could be summarized in one sentence : You are descendants of those who sold their faith for a dinner. That initial sinn is source of all of yours complexes and frustrations and hate towards Serbs, because they remind you who you were once before been.
 
Bosnians are an invented identity after the collapse of Yugoslavia. When Yugoslavia was created after WW1 it was the kingdom of the sloviens, croats and serbs. Bosnians, macedonians, kosovars, montinegrins are all artificially created identities in order to divide that country. Learn about nationalism and 'imagined communities' and you will see this is the truth. What is the real difference between a bosnian to a serb or croat? religion? is that all you need to be distinctive? If I change my religion to a different one from my family does that make me a different nationality apart from them? things to think about. What is the real difference between a montinegrin and a serb? political boarders? what is the real difference from a macedonian and a bulgarian? propaganda? what is the real difference between a kosovar and an albanian? I think you see my point.

I agree, bosnians were never a nation, and were equal to Ottomans-Turks,
they create nationality after the Ottoman-Turkish expel from balkans,
they are islam converted local people, and manage to have national identiy nowdays,
in fact the almost one language (3-4 smaller dialects) huge area broke up to 3 areas mainly due to religion
 
I agree, bosnians were never a nation, and were equal to Ottomans-Turks,
they create nationality after the Ottoman-Turkish expel from balkans,
they are islam converted local people, and manage to have national identiy nowdays,
in fact the almost one language (3-4 smaller dialects) huge area broke up to 3 areas mainly due to religion

One thing people seem to get stuck in is borders and cultural groups. In the case of the Bosnian cultural self identity started to branch out under ottoman rule. Just because a nation did not exist does not mean that a cultural identity wasn’t there.

The concept of National identity is new in terms of human history. The common peoples self identity was smaller.

I’m rather fascinated with the development in the Balkan area. The way national self identities are forming and shifting. The fall of the Ottoman Empire, ww1, ww2, Formation of Yugoslavia and in relation to the break up Yugoslavia.

One interesting thing is that as Ottoman Empire played a key part Bosnian self identity they don’t demonize them compared to the other groups that were Vassals and or occupied by the Ottomans.

Branching out and converging of cultures happens all the time. Today we see a branching of Italy happening from the north and south and other countries like Belgium. All it takes is a group of people to convince the people that they are better and make the other group bad.

That’s what happened in Yugoslavia. Small groups of intellectuals started a new self identity that cascaded and spread.

The wars have built larger walls and added new layers of self identities to the groups.

Even on this thread, the forum in general, you se examples of reinforcement of self identity by demonizing the others.
 
Aconform, you know all this self-identify when compaired to the "other" is atificial right? There really isn't a difference people just make one in their mind. So when I say bosnians are muslim serbs and croats it really is that simple. There isn't anythign demonizing about that. If I were to say bosnians are cowards, theives, yada yada yada then I would be demonizing them.
 
Aconform, you know all this self-identify when compaired to the "other" is atificial right? There really isn't a difference people just make one in their mind. So when I say bosnians are muslim serbs and croats it really is that simple. There isn't anythign demonizing about that. If I were to say bosnians are cowards, theives, yada yada yada then I would be demonizing them.

My comment was not directed at anyone in particular. Just that the way Self and national identity works.

Ones self identity shift and is more like an onion with many layers. Global > continental > regional > religion > national > lingual > urban/rural > city > and so fourth down to the individual self and what sets him apart from the hole world.

All the identities we have surface in relation to others be that in a positive manor or negative. Normal every day people will usual find a common denominator to interact with each other in a positive manor.

Base human desire is peace and positive interaction now to override this leaders have used or should I say abused, this base human desire.

What has happened in the Balkans is a prime example of this. In reality they have more in conmen then that witch separates them… Still it was possible to create a strong self identity, problem was that it went over board and ended up demonizing that witch was not a part of that self identity. With the tragic result that was the wars in the Balkan.

Self identity is fluid I would not go so far as to call it artificial… even the people the Balkan have a common regional identity… On a thread here I saw an example of that. Were the argument was heated and one outside of the Balkan Indented made negative remarks to that. And the ones arguing fell back to common identity… saying something in the lines of: <Today we fight tomorrow we drink raki together and have fun. That’s how it is with us Balkan people>.

My argument is that our self identity is fluid and is more governed by our interaction with the outside world. And my intent is that people realize this so that they are less likely to me pushed toward negative actions.

I’m a rather surprised that in this day and age that people still are easily manipulated. All tragic event in our human history are contributed to results not the root cause. WW2 was National Socialism the root cause of Genocide? Or the creation of this identity formulation? The root conmen dominator was: we suffer because of the Jews and WW1. But could just as easy been anything ells. In Russian it was Social class. In America it was communism.

So if someone wants power he was to promise people a result to gain that power and to get the people to believe in the result. You need to form an identity using anything of the elements I mentioned at the start. And this is base formula for all good and bad thing we humans have ever done.
 
Once again its proved that self identity or own rights are not valid for the Ultra Fanatics (Serbs and Greeks).
This people are continuing to be nationalistic but they dont know what they are themselfs just making a dreamworld that suits them only.
There are other people that may fit in here but Greeks and Serbs are way off with the behavior against others.

READ ALL THREADS BY THESE PEOPLE AND YOU WILL EASY SEE WHAT KIND OF NONSENSE SPAMMERS THEY ARE. Biggest provocateur is Elias2. He dont know and dont care about genetics or history, only here to spam.
 
haha dajavu "macedonian" is the prime example of an artificial identity. I can tell you how Bulgarian you are by using genetics and history but you just don't care.(y)

@aconform

You say this with the asumption that self identity is a cultural grassroot movement, meaning it starts from the bottom and moves up. What happens when it is imposed on people from the top down?
 
I think I tried to explain both bottom up and top down.

If we take our precious Balkan. One might imagine that a movement was started that blamed extreme nationalism rather then ethnic groups or/and religion.

But I really don’t believe in grassroots movement you need the idea or identity to be formulated.

In Scandinavia there was also many wars and animosity. Then there came a shift were on the political and intellectual front a common identity was fostered.

I think if politicians start using the national mantra again with in a few years people would start to argue about who were the real Vikings :)

What is needed is an Anti nationalistic Balkan movement. By Artist, politicians and others.

Don’t know I just wish for something new a positive wave to wash a away the hate.
 
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