Reconstruction of Ancient British people

Wow, that is literally perfection of the Mediterranean phenotype, I can't see how anyone could ever clearly top that - perhaps her lips could be slightly thinner but that's within the realm of debate and more of a personal preference.

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I beg to differ... about the lips, of course. They are just perfect as they are, they fit her other facial features perfectly. In my opinion she had one of the most absolutely flawless faces ever recorded.
 
No, Angela, she doesn't look like a British woman. They have made her look distinctly negroid, or at least 'mixed race', with flared nostrils and [it looks like] diastema too. If they had been attempting to reconstruct the face of a down-and-out from Detroit who had been murdered by her pimp, I'd think it a lot more accurate..

Ouch! You may not even be aware of how terribly racist that comparison sounded like (oh, no, of course it's very normal that the perception of someone as "negroid" should immediately bring to mind a down-and-out woman murdered by her pimp). How ridiculous...

And no, she doesn't look Negroid at all. Maybe your mind is too obfuscated by her admittedly too dark to be credible skin color.
 
Salma Hayek: In an interview in 2015 with Un Nuevo Día while visiting Madrid, Spain, Hayek said that her maternal grandmother and maternal great-grandparents were from Spain

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salma_Hayek (Biography)
 
Let me help some of the skin color-obsessed members of this forum see the features of British Neolithic woman for what they are instead of being too influenced by the overly dark skin tone they gave her:

View attachment 10662

Now does she look Negroid or whatever? If anything she may look like some mainly European Latin Americans with some Native American input (e.g. Frida Kahlo as aptly suggested by Angela).
 
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Sara Montiel at 2 years old and adult. He reminded me of Mònica Bellucci. I think Mònica Bellucci could draw on her genetic test of Iberia.

Hollywood gave Sara Montiel Native American characters.
 
Ouch! You may not even be aware of how terribly racist that comparison sounded like (oh, no, of course it's very normal that the perception of someone as "negroid" should immediately bring to mind a down-and-out woman murdered by her pimp). How ridiculous...

And no, she doesn't look Negroid at all. Maybe your mind is too obfuscated by her admittedly too dark to be credible skin color

I have seen a variety of photos of the face, and the extent to which it appears partially-sub-Saharan does vary depending on the angle from which it is shot. Mostly, it looks like within the range for an African-American, because African-Americans are of mixed Negroid and Caucasoid ancestry. My mind isn't obfuscated, nor befuddled, addled or otherwise confused. I won't disregard the skin colour from my judgement, because the colouration is a deliberate choice. If it was a simple case of the choice of materials, and it was stated that the colour was not accurate nor intended to be, I would accept it. However, it is.

I should state at this point that Brighton is far and away the most left-wing town or city in the UK. I'm not going to bang on about politics, but I can assure you I am not opposed to left-wing ideologies or political trains of thought and greatly admire many left-wing authors, authoresses, politicians and activists. But Brighton and the Brightonians generally represent a quite disturbing extremity of this end of the political spectrum. If Britain were to be represented by a body, then Brighton would be the greening, septic pile betwixt its sweaty arse cheeks.

As I said, they have treated this reconstruction on the basis that a) WHG all had skin tones akin to the laughable Cheddar Man reconstruction, and b) offspring of mixed WHG/Farmer parentage would have had skin colouration similar to modern mulattoes. The most obvious refutation of this point would be to point towards modern day mixes between white Europeans and aborigines in Australia. How many Australians with an Aboriginal grandparent or great-grandparent do you see whose skin tones can be compared to the average West African?
 
Let me help some of the skin color-obsessed members of this forum see the features of British Neolithic woman for what they are instead of being too influenced by the overly dark skin tone they gave her:

View attachment 10662

Now does she look Negroid or whatever? If anything she may look like some mainly European Latin Americans with some Native American input (e.g. Frida Kahlo as aptly suggested by Angela).

I think the WHG gives a pseudo-Amerindian look to some people. I find a bit of a look of it in some of the Finns, for example, but also other North Eastern Europeans. The reconstructions we have of the steppe people sometimes show it too, no doubt coming from the EHG, who were mainly WHG like themselves. Some shared ancient North Eurasian thing perhaps?

I never got Kahlo's thing about eyebrows, however. :)

I agree about Bellucci, but such perfection is rare anywhere.

Salma Hayek is another extraordinarily beautiful woman.
 
There are no issues with the reconstruction of the Neolithic woman. We already knew that the farmers were mesorrhine (i. e. moderately broad nosed). They also had more developed and projecting jaws than moderns. Look at this Baden skull for example:

image3_fit_640x10000.jpg
 
I have seen a variety of photos of the face, and the extent to which it appears partially-sub-Saharan does vary depending on the angle from which it is shot. Mostly, it looks like within the range for an African-American, because African-Americans are of mixed Negroid and Caucasoid ancestry. My mind isn't obfuscated, nor befuddled, addled or otherwise confused. I won't disregard the skin colour from my judgement, because the colouration is a deliberate choice. If it was a simple case of the choice of materials, and it was stated that the colour was not accurate nor intended to be, I would accept it. However, it is.

I should state at this point that Brighton is far and away the most left-wing town or city in the UK. I'm not going to bang on about politics, but I can assure you I am not opposed to left-wing ideologies or political trains of thought and greatly admire many left-wing authors, authoresses, politicians and activists. But Brighton and the Brightonians generally represent a quite disturbing extremity of this end of the political spectrum. If Britain were to be represented by a body, then Brighton would be the greening, septic pile betwixt its sweaty arse cheeks.

As I said, they have treated this reconstruction on the basis that a) WHG all had skin tones akin to the laughable Cheddar Man reconstruction, and b) offspring of mixed WHG/Farmer parentage would have had skin colouration similar to modern mulattoes. The most obvious refutation of this point would be to point towards modern day mixes between white Europeans and aborigines in Australia. How many Australians with an Aboriginal grandparent or great-grandparent do you see whose skin tones can be compared to the average West African?

But I'm not even disagreeing with you that the skin color is defintiely and suspiciously too dark. I won't get into the discussion of whether this is just unconscious bias or a deliberate choice influenced by modern conceptions of race (or rather their attempt to debunk traditional racial theories), but I just thought you were tremendously insensitive and yes, even if unwillingly, downright racist with your specific "example" of an African-American woman whose remains would be comparable to what you believe the British Neolithic woman looks like. Sorry, but it was just typical negative stereotyping whether it was deliberate or - as I believe - not.

I don't think she looks African-American at all, only if you mean the "whitest", most European-shifted extreme of the phenotypic spectrum of African-Americans, people that would definitely not be considered black in other countries more used to mixed-race varieties like Brazil (e.g. Halle Berry, Mariah Carey). Her traits are not Negroid, the facial shape, the jaw, the lips, the nose itself (typical Negroid noses are not just flat, they are also short vertically and small laterally, very unlike the British woman's nose), almost everything. Now, if you said she looks a dark-skinned mestizo of Latin América I'd agree with you.

As I said above, I do believe some WHG-admixed EEF might've looked reasonably dark, but dark like modern Bedouins or Saudis, not like that reconstructed woman, whose skin color looks even darker than that of most Brazilian pardos​ (mixed-race).
 
I think the WHG gives a pseudo-Amerindian look to some people. I find a bit of a look of it in some of the Finns, for example, but also other North Eastern Europeans. The reconstructions we have of the steppe people sometimes show it too, no doubt coming from the EHG, who were mainly WHG like themselves. Some shared ancient North Eurasian thing perhaps?

I have noticed that myself. Cheddar Man himself, way too dark skin aside, has a Native American-like feel to his face. Some of the Yamnaya reconstructions I have seen, too. Maybe some Amerindian populations still carry some ANE features, but I wonder how that could manifest in WHG, who AFAIK do not have ANE as the EHG did. Maybe it was just a random phenotypic convergence in the northern parts of Eurasia?
 
I have noticed that myself. Cheddar Man himself, way too dark skin aside, has a Native American-like feel to his face. Some of the Yamnaya reconstructions I have seen, too. Maybe some Amerindian populations still carry some ANE features, but I wonder how that could manifest in WHG, who AFAIK do not have ANE as the EHG did. Maybe it was just a random phenotypic convergence in the northern parts of Eurasia?

Yes, completely agree. It must be something like that.
 
But I'm not even disagreeing with you that the skin color is defintiely and suspiciously too dark. I won't get into the discussion of whether this is just unconscious bias or a deliberate choice influenced by modern conceptions of race (or rather their attempt to debunk traditional racial theories), but I just thought you were tremendously insensitive and yes, even if unwillingly, downright racist with your specific "example" of an African-American woman whose remains would be comparable to what you believe the British Neolithic woman looks like. Sorry, but it was just typical negative stereotyping whether it was deliberate or - as I believe - not.

I don't think she looks African-American at all, only if you mean the "whitest", most European-shifted extreme of the phenotypic spectrum of African-Americans, people that would definitely not be considered black in other countries more used to mixed-race varieties like Brazil (e.g. Halle Berry, Mariah Carey). Her traits are not Negroid, the facial shape, the jaw, the lips, the nose itself (typical Negroid noses are not just flat, they are also short vertically and small laterally, very unlike the British woman's nose), almost everything. Now, if you said she looks a dark-skinned mestizo of Latin América I'd agree with you.

As I said above, I do believe some WHG-admixed EEF might've looked reasonably dark, but dark like modern Bedouins or Saudis, not like that reconstructed woman, whose skin color looks even darker than that of most Brazilian pardos​ (mixed-race).

I think people have forgotten or don't wish to acknowledge that if you look at the percentages for depigmentation snps in Anatolian Neolithic people in comparison with samples from, say, the Spanish Neolithic, you can see that the farmers actually "darkened" after admixture with WHG people. It's just the way it is.

That said, the pigmentation in this "reconstruction" is too dark, and not even a "natural" color.

As I've also said in other ways, her facial bone structure is not completely "Med" or "gracile med", but definitely shows the WHG which, as we've both agreed, sometimes gives a pseudo-Amerindian gloss to the features.
 
I don't think she looks African-American at all, only if you mean the "whitest", most European-shifted extreme of the phenotypic spectrum of African-Americans, people that would definitely not be considered black in other countries more used to mixed-race varieties like Brazil (e.g. Halle Berry, Mariah Carey). Her traits are not Negroid, the facial shape, the jaw, the lips, the nose itself (typical Negroid noses are not just flat, they are also short vertically and small laterally, very unlike the British woman's nose), almost everything. Now, if you said she looks a dark-skinned mestizo of Latin América I'd agree with you

A Halle Berry type is what I was thinking, yes. Her mother was white and her father was African American (and thus admixed with West Eurasians anyway). The Amerindian-type influence of WHG ancestry would be a viable explanation (it should have clicked, but then I am very daft) but that only serves to help my point. Many blacks in the Western World, whether Afro-Caribbeans, African Americans or Brazilian blacks are admixed with a range of Native American peoples, be they Cherokee or Taino or whatever else. Perhaps this accounts for the features I have seen in people who are [most clearly and most subtantially] of Negroid ancestry, whatever admixture they may possess. I didn't say she resembled the average black, though admittedly I made it look like I was saying that by generalising as 'Negroid' when what I actually meant was 'more within the range of what we would call 'black' in the modern, colloquial sense'.
 
African Americans have almost no Amerindian. They were all myths, just like all the ones about Anglos having Pocahontas in their family trees.

The research is there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289685/

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There can be no fruitful discussions when they're based on misinformation.
 
A Halle Berry type is what I was thinking, yes. Her mother was white and her father was African American (and thus admixed with West Eurasians anyway).

Honestly only Anglo-Americans, still not totally cleaned from their "one drop rule" legacy, would consider Halle Berry a black person. lol. Other countries have "multiracial" categories exactly for people like her, who are obviously not truly white and also obviously not truly black. I mean, considering what you just told me, it's totally possible that she's around 65% European, perhaps even more. I would never base my notions of what a Negroid person is based on such a heavily mixed person with less than half of her ancestry deriving from fully Subsaharan African people. Halle Berry is quite Caucasoid in terms of features in my opinion.

Afro-Brazilians indeed have quite a lot of Native American ancestry (but much more European ancestry, anyway), but I'm not aware that African-Americans have any non-negligible (<2%) Native American ancestry.
 
African Americans have almost no Amerindian. They were all myths, just like all the ones about Anglos having Pocahontas in their family trees

'Many' does not mean the same as 'all'

'Many' does not mean the same as 'most'

Honestly only Anglo-Americans, still not totally cleaned from their "one drop rule" legacy, would consider Halle Berry a black person. lol. Other countries have "multiracial" categories exactly for people like her, who are obviously not truly white and also obviously not truly black. I mean, considering what you just told me, it's totally possible that she's around 65% European, perhaps even more. I would never base my notions of what a Negroid person is based on such a heavily mixed person with less than half of her ancestry deriving from fully Subsaharan African people. Halle Berry is quite Caucasoid in terms of features in my opinion.

Afro-Brazilians indeed have quite a lot of Native American ancestry (but much more European ancestry, anyway), but I'm not aware that African-Americans have any non-negligible (<2%) Native American ancestry

Virtually everyone in the Western world would consider Halle Berry black, as indeed does Halle Berry. Her physical features, particularly in the face, would be strongly suggestive of a partial Negroid origin even if we didn't know her father's race.
 
Someone like Halle Berry would fall within the cluster of Caucasoid skeletal variance. There are minor features like the low nasal bridge that make her distinctive. It's a stupid discussion, and people are reacting emotionally.

Besides the Neolithic woman looks nothing like her.
 
Honestly only Anglo-Americans, still not totally cleaned from their "one drop rule" legacy, would consider Halle Berry a black person. lol. Other countries have "multiracial" categories exactly for people like her, who are obviously not truly white and also obviously not truly black. I mean, considering what you just told me, it's totally possible that she's around 65% European, perhaps even more. I would never base my notions of what a Negroid person is based on such a heavily mixed person with less than half of her ancestry deriving from fully Subsaharan African people. Halle Berry is quite Caucasoid in terms of features in my opinion.

Afro-Brazilians indeed have quite a lot of Native American ancestry (but much more European ancestry, anyway), but I'm not aware that African-Americans have any non-negligible (<2%) Native American ancestry.

I completely agree, and as my link proves.

Halle Berry looks very different now as compared to how she looked in high school.

halle-berry-celebrity-yearbook-pictures-1368458345-view-1.jpg


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The hair has been straightened, and it looks as if she had a nose job. In an ironic touch, the lips may be pumped up. The result is that minus the jaw, she looks basically like a European woman with dark skin.

Those are the kinds of African American women whom the white media tout as being beautiful "black" women, when they really don't look black at all.

In some pictures she reminds me of Morena Baccarin:
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The only resemblance between Halle Berry and the Neolithic reconstruction that I can see is in the face shape and the skin color, which in the case of the reconstruction is incorrect.
 
Virtually everyone in the Western world would consider Halle Berry black, as indeed does Halle Berry. Her physical features, particularly in the face, would be strongly suggestive of a partial Negroid origin even if we didn't know her father's race.

Halle Berry is just as Negroid (partial Negroid origin) as she is Caucasoid. No, actually she is more of Caucasoid origin than Negroid one. As I said, some cultures just can't get rid of their "one drop rule" times yet. She is "black" in those parts of the world where there is just White vs. Black dichotomy, with no subtlety, so anything that doesn't look fully White is assigned to the generic Black category, whereas, on the contrary, any partial, even minor African-like features are more than enough to classify someone as "Black". Of course she identifies lik that, she's also part of that same social milieu that clings to that black-or-white classification. We know that's all pretty subjective and arbitrary. Halle Berry's phenotype is very mixed, so she won't fit any cluster perfectly. These "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" terms are too broad and incomplete anyway... but I'd describe her present looks as mainly Caucasoid with just some Negroid influences, skin color aside.
 
Wow, that is literally perfection of the Mediterranean phenotype, I can't see how anyone could ever clearly top that - perhaps her lips could be slightly thinner but that's within the realm of debate and more of a personal preference.

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The irony is that she’s from Umbria (the heart of Italy), a land-locked region bordering Tuscany, Lazio, ...
 

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