The Population History of Northeastern Siberia

Hm. If both Mal'ta have CHG and Andamanese Iran_Neo, it probably have to do with the hypothetic ASE, Ancient South Eurasian, wich is believe to be the ancestor of ANE. Maybe something coming out of India.

But how can Mal'ta have CHG when it is much, much older than the CHG samples and thus it certainly lacked the particular mix that arose and consolidated in the Caucasus to form the CHG? I think that sounds terribly anachronistic and certainly leads to wrong conclusions. It can only be said that Mal'ta and CHG may have had a part of their genome that represent common ancestral roots (maybe not even implying necessarily a direct relationship, but that they were all influenced by waves of the same ancient population admixtures - though I definitely think ANE-enriched groups contributed to the CHG).
 
But how can Mal'ta have CHG when it is much, much older than the CHG samples and thus it certainly lacked the particular mix that arose and consolidated in the Caucasus to form the CHG? I think that sounds terribly anachronistic and certainly leads to wrong conclusions. It can only be said that Mal'ta and CHG may have had a part of their genome that represent common ancestral roots (maybe not even implying necessarily a direct relationship, but that they were all influenced by waves of the same ancient population admixtures - though I definitely think ANE-enriched groups contributed to the CHG).

Surely it's just that CHG was partly ANE-enriched - I get that it could be that both have similar ancestry, but I can't see how CHG would have gotten to NE Siberia (whereas we know these R1 guys were mobile af)
 
After the failed expedition of the presumably AMH Skhul, the northern Middle East and the Levant seems to have been resettled by pure Neanderthals until their decline after ~45k B.P. . I believe that if the ancestors of modern humans had spent much time in the Middle East living more or less side by side with Neanderthals we would see inflated Neanderthal signals especially among West Eurasians, as is the case with the Romanian Oase guy. Remote areas like southern Arabia would be an exception of course.

Alternative explanations like social segregation etc. could be invoked, but I believe archaics and AMH interbred quite readily when they met, hence we observe multiple introgressions into the line of modern humans. Seems more likely to me that the archaic range and the AMH range initially didn't overlap too much, with sapiens favoring the warmer regions until he became genetically & socially/technologically adapted to the colder climates of Eurasia. That's when we see the rapid colonization of the entirety of Eurasia beginning ca. ~45k B.P. . This might explain the suspicious gap between the very early dates for human settlement in South & South-East Asia (if corroborated) and other regions halpfalp mentioned before: the relatively quick exodus from his ancestral home might have been a quite difficult affair for AMH. Unlike the Neanderthal he didn't have the benefit of ~400k years adaptation to cold climates and Eurasian biomes.

I don't know... I think the archaic humans and AMH only interbred occasionally, but often enough to allow for gradual introgression into the gene pool. We have examples of fully modern human populations who basically maintained genetic borders between close territories for centuries or even millennia without much mixing, so we can't rule that out in the case of people who clearly looked and probably acted in a way quite different from our own. Even different castes in India, often looking reasonably similar and sharing a similar culture and behavioral patterns, have remained separate for such a long time that in some parts of that country the local genetic structure is as diverse as that of entire subcontinents like East Asia.

As for the difference between modern West Eurasians and the likes of Oase, I think the gradual elimination of part of the Neanderthal genome, apparently unfavorable or at least not more favorable than AMH alleles, can also explain part of that much lower percentage of Neanderthal ancestry. It is probable that at least some regional Middle Eastern AMH populations had much higher percentage of Neanderthal ancestry, but admixture with Basal Eurasians and slow but continuous loss of Neanderthal-derived genes created much less Neanderthal-enriched West Eurasian people.

Much of the southern Levant and Mesopotamia are warm enough for human habitation even if they as you plausibly say favored only ecological realms with warmer climates, certainly just as warm as much of Africa (much of which lies on high plateaus, besides widespread human habitation since very early times - actually the oldest human skull ever - in North Africa, roughly on the same latitude as Lebanon and Jordan).
 
But how can Mal'ta have CHG when it is much, much older than the CHG samples and thus it certainly lacked the particular mix that arose and consolidated in the Caucasus to form the CHG? I think that sounds terribly anachronistic and certainly leads to wrong conclusions. It can only be said that Mal'ta and CHG may have had a part of their genome that represent common ancestral roots (maybe not even implying necessarily a direct relationship, but that they were all influenced by waves of the same ancient population admixtures - though I definitely think ANE-enriched groups contributed to the CHG).

Obviously Mal'ta doesn't have Kotias ancestry. But CHG have an origin wich is intermediary between EHG and Iran_Neo. Iran_Neo is ANE + Basal Eurasian. In all this Mal'ta have a shared ancestry that contributed to create CHG later, but what? It cannot be Basal Eurasian or we would know, it has to be something that we didn't discover yet, something maybe related with India like ASE. Wich actually confused me a little bit. When we didn't know about CHG yet, we already know about the " Teal " component wich was said to be " from the near east, but not the same that the Anatolian Farmers that made neolithic europe ". So we just needed to found Satsurblia and Kotias to understand. But here it's just CHG, something we already know, that we found even in mesolithic Europe, so what's the exact link? Complicate...
 
But how can Mal'ta have CHG when it is much, much older than the CHG samples and thus it certainly lacked the particular mix that arose and consolidated in the Caucasus to form the CHG? I think that sounds terribly anachronistic and certainly leads to wrong conclusions. It can only be said that Mal'ta and CHG may have had a part of their genome that represent common ancestral roots (maybe not even implying necessarily a direct relationship, but that they were all influenced by waves of the same ancient population admixtures - though I definitely think ANE-enriched groups contributed to the CHG).

I think this is just one of the models that shot out of the algo, that ANE has CHG ancestry. Perhaps this paper was written before they read the Dzudzuana paper.

It seems more likely that there was an ANE/Iran_Neo cline forming from North to South, as ANE moved out of the freeze zone and into Central/West Asia, which was also gradually morphing into a Iran_Neo/EHG cline with CHG in the middle as WHG/Common West Eurasian types mixed from the West.

After the failed expedition of the presumably AMH Skhul, the northern Middle East and the Levant seems to have been resettled by pure Neanderthals until their decline after ~45k B.P. . I believe that if the ancestors of modern humans had spent much time in the Middle East living more or less side by side with Neanderthals we would see inflated Neanderthal signals especially among West Eurasians, as is the case with the Romanian Oase guy. Remote areas like southern Arabia would be an exception of course.

Alternative explanations like social segregation etc. could be invoked, but I believe archaics and AMH interbred quite readily when they met, hence we observe multiple introgressions into the line of modern humans. Seems more likely to me that the archaic range and the AMH range initially didn't overlap too much, with sapiens favoring the warmer regions until he became genetically & socially/technologically adapted to the colder climates of Eurasia. That's when we see the rapid colonization of the entirety of Eurasia beginning ca. ~45k B.P. . This might explain the suspicious gap between the very early dates for human settlement in South & South-East Asia (if corroborated) and other regions halpfalp mentioned before: the relatively quick exodus from his ancestral home might have been a quite difficult affair for AMH. Unlike the Neanderthal he didn't have the benefit of ~400k years adaptation to cold climates and Eurasian biomes.

Gotchya, you're essentially saying that if we had two distinct waves, one being significantly before another, we'd be more likely to see at the very least more significant differences in Neanderthal ancestry among Eurasians. Don't know if I'm sold, but it does make some sense. I'd probably point out that there are differences in Neanderthal admixture more than I would disagree with this reasoning.
 
Surely it's just that CHG was partly ANE-enriched - I get that it could be that both have similar ancestry, but I can't see how CHG would have gotten to NE Siberia (whereas we know these R1 guys were mobile af)

because NE Siberia 38 ka wasn't restricted to NE Siberia
this population covered a vast territory of which NE Siberia was an extremity which they reached 31.6 ka
my guess is their 38 ka origin lies in Central Asia
 
After the failed expedition of the presumably AMH Skhul, the northern Middle East and the Levant seems to have been resettled by pure Neanderthals until their decline after ~45k B.P. . I believe that if the ancestors of modern humans had spent much time in the Middle East living more or less side by side with Neanderthals we would see inflated Neanderthal signals especially among West Eurasians, as is the case with the Romanian Oase guy. Remote areas like southern Arabia would be an exception of course.
Alternative explanations like social segregation etc. could be invoked, but I believe archaics and AMH interbred quite readily when they met, hence we observe multiple introgressions into the line of modern humans. Seems more likely to me that the archaic range and the AMH range initially didn't overlap too much, with sapiens favoring the warmer regions until he became genetically & socially/technologically adapted to the colder climates of Eurasia. That's when we see the rapid colonization of the entirety of Eurasia beginning ca. ~45k B.P. . This might explain the suspicious gap between the very early dates for human settlement in South & South-East Asia (if corroborated) and other regions halpfalp mentioned before: the relatively quick exodus from his ancestral home might have been a quite difficult affair for AMH. Unlike the Neanderthal he didn't have the benefit of ~400k years adaptation to cold climates and Eurasian biomes.
I don't think so.
IMO AMH lived side by side with Neanderthals in the Middle East from 90 ka till 45 ka and we know 90 - 60 ka Eurasian AMH experienced a bottle neck.
The 55-60 ka admixture event was out of necessity, because AMH had very few partners to mate with.

We have a lot of European paleolithic DNA.
AMH were in Europe since 48 ka and lived there next to Neanderthals till 39 ka.
The only one that mated with Neanderthals within Europe was Oase I.
 
But how can Mal'ta have CHG when it is much, much older than the CHG samples and thus it certainly lacked the particular mix that arose and consolidated in the Caucasus to form the CHG? I think that sounds terribly anachronistic and certainly leads to wrong conclusions. It can only be said that Mal'ta and CHG may have had a part of their genome that represent common ancestral roots (maybe not even implying necessarily a direct relationship, but that they were all influenced by waves of the same ancient population admixtures - though I definitely think ANE-enriched groups contributed to the CHG).

this paper tries to modell CHG from ANS and Basal Eurasian
to modell CHG properly you need Dzudzuana, which this paper doesn't know
 
I don't think so.
IMO AMH lived side by side with Neanderthals in the Middle East from 90 ka till 45 ka and we know 90 - 60 ka Eurasian AMH experienced a bottle neck.
The 55-60 ka admixture event was out of necessity, because AMH had very few partners to mate with.

We have a lot of European paleolithic DNA.
AMH were in Europe since 48 ka and lived there next to Neanderthals till 39 ka.
The only one that mated with Neanderthals within Europe was Oase I.

So you consider Skhul and Qafzeh as part of our own phylogenetic group as modern humans?
 
So you consider Skhul and Qafzeh as part of our own phylogenetic group as modern humans?

no, morphological Skhul and Qafzeh cluster with Irhoud and Aterian

but I consider 125 ka Jebel Faya as an extinct branch of AMH (but maybe ancestral to Basal Eurasian)
and I consider Nubian Complex as our ancestors (Y-DNA A1 https://www.yfull.com/tree/A1/ )

Nubian Complex originated in NE Africa some 160 ka, but it was present in Arabia since at least 106 ka

Neanderthals were present in southern Central Asia 87 ka, in the Zagros Mts 80 ka and later also in the Levant
 
no, morphological Skhul and Qafzeh cluster with Irhoud and Aterian

but I consider 125 ka Jebel Faya as an extinct branch of AMH (but maybe ancestral to Basal Eurasian)
and I consider Nubian Complex as our ancestors (Y-DNA A1 https://www.yfull.com/tree/A1/ )

Nubian Complex originated in NE Africa some 160 ka, but it was present in Arabia since at least 106 ka

Neanderthals were present in southern Central Asia 87 ka, in the Zagros Mts 80 ka and later also in the Levant

So your hypothesis is that human expansion only happened after Neanderthal and Denisova was weakened by something?
 
So your hypothesis is that human expansion only happened after Neanderthal and Denisova was weakened by something?
before 50 ka human expansion happened in areas not inhabited by Neanderthals

ca 50 ka some humans invented blade tools
these humans replaced the Neanderthals, the Denisovans and many other humans who were still using flake tools and Levallois technique
they also lived in areas no humans or Neanderthals never had survived before

it all happened in 10.000 years time
 
before 50 ka human expansion happened in areas not inhabited by Neanderthals

ca 50 ka some humans invented blade tools
these humans replaced the Neanderthals, the Denisovans and many other humans who were still using flake tools and Levallois technique
they also lived in areas no humans or Neanderthals never had survived before

it all happened in 10.000 years time

As well as spear throwers. And that may have been the reason AMH started to gain territory at the expense of Neanderthals.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/07/23/did-spear-chucking-humans-kill-neanderthals/


EDIT: An insight in Neanderthal hunting:
https://arstechnica.com/science/201...h-spears-demonstrate-how-neanderthals-hunted/
 
As well as spear throwers. And that may have been the reason AMH started to gain territory at the expense of Neanderthals.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/07/23/did-spear-chucking-humans-kill-neanderthals/

EDIT: An insight in Neanderthal hunting:
https://arstechnica.com/science/201...h-spears-demonstrate-how-neanderthals-hunted/



Is it really? Spear throwers are actually a late items found in archeological remains, in case for Europe, it only appears in the transition Solutrean-Magdalenian. How would Spear throwers be used for killing Shanidar 3 wich is dated 50'000 - 46'000 BC, with both Aurignacians and Gravettians not knowing this technology?
 
I suspect spear throwers and their javelins were made like the following video shows, for thousands of years prior to any attachments, with fire-hardened points shaped out of the shaft and no fletching. There are many people making and using atlatls on Youtube. This guy's works as well as most. These would leave no archeological trace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrlr02YDr5A
 
Can you elaborate on this point? What areas, where?

Siberia and Mongolia
also in Europe, they went further up north than Neanderthal
they had better clothing and were more mobile
during summertime they followed their prey on their trek north

in India they replaced other AMH who didn't have blade tools
 
I suspect spear throwers and their javelins were made like the following video shows, for thousands of years prior to any attachments, with fire-hardened points shaped out of the shaft and no fletching. There are many people making and using atlatls on Youtube. This guy's works as well as most. These would leave no archeological trace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrlr02YDr5A

nice video

and I agree, for archeology it is hard to detect spear throwers

I don't think they existed 40 ka
but they probably existed in Clovis culture, 13 ka America and in Solutrean, 24 ka Europe
 
The AETA tribe or Agta of Luzon PHILIPPINES are the only group of people that have ydna P*, P1* and the very rare P2 found all together along with significant levels of K2b1.
Ydna P* is found in 28% of Aeta and 10.8% of the Timorese INDONESIA.
 

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