Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Yes, it is big true, reputation.

Unfortunately, some Balkanites are very jealous of the ancient Greek civilization.

Greeks were as Californians present day but ancestors of others were Barbarians no matter where they originated from different areas Asia and Europe.

They did not have the benefits of a civilisation and culture like Greeks, including a letter and a written language.

Even some people try to find in their history something great that did not exist and then, in the absence of it, they fabricate.

All what we know about the ancient world comes from the Greeks (and other peoples who had a letter).

In today's interpretations it may seem that the Greeks felt superior, nationalistic, and humiliated Barbarians.

However, it has nothing to do with the truth.

Peter Wade, Race: An Introduction, 2015

(Quote)

“The Greeks did not try to divide humans up into types, according to their material, natural characteristics. Much more important was the form of political governance and civil association. The Greeks differentiated between themselves and ‘barbarians’, but this distinction was based not on geography, appearance or ancestry, but on how people lived. Barbarians were those who lived according to the laws of physics (‘nature’ in the sense of the domain of things that exist independent of human intervention) and thus lived brutishly, inarticulately, without real choice, governed by custom and habit alone, bound together by descent, and subject to tyranny and hierarchy. All people had to contend with physics and custom, but they did not have to be ruled by them alone. Those who lived by the rule of nomos – man-made laws operating through reason, moderation and properly formed speech in a public assembly – were civilised citizens who lived in the political way. People who lived under the rule of monarchs and despots would be inferior.”
Greeks had 4000 years of Aristocracy, Kingdoms, Emperors, etc. And they had at most, 200 years of "democracy".

All, and I mean All, great Greek philosophers were against "democracy", and pro Aristocracy, Hierarchy and the Natural rule of Inequality.

You re trying to understand the Greek mentality. Read ancient Greek sources, and make your own opinion, instead of reading biased opinions.

Greeks called barbarians ANY non Greek, first for their language( when a barbarian talked they listened to "bar bar bar"), and secondly to ancestry. Herodotus defined Greek Identity as being one of BLOOD, first and foremost, then language, then customs and culture and tradition.

All the above, can be read in ancient greek sources.

Suggesting that Greeks didnt distinguish between them and barbarians, through ancestry, is an outright lie.
 
Greeks had 4000 years of Aristocracy, Kingdoms, Emperors, etc. And they had at most, 200 years of "democracy".

All, and I mean All, great Greek philosophers were against "democracy", and pro Aristocracy, Hierarchy and the Natural rule of Inequality.

You re trying to understand the Greek mentality. Read ancient Greek sources, and make your own opinion, instead of reading biased opinions.

Greeks called barbarians ANY non Greek, first for their language( when a barbarian talked they listened to "bar bar bar"), and secondly to ancestry. Herodotus defined Greek Identity as being one of BLOOD, first and foremost, then language, then customs and culture and tradition.

All the above, can be read in ancient greek sources.

Suggesting that Greeks didnt distinguish between them and barbarians, through ancestry, is an outright lie.

All what you write is all right, but I think that Wade (author) wanted to highlights that Barbarians didn't have nomos only physics.

Not only different language and ancestry, nomos is factor of differentiation between Greeks and Barbarians.

I think it is author's the point.
 
Garrick - Hellenes were racist about racial purity by today's definition. Pureness of blood in places like Athens would play a significant role in your live.
 
Yes, it is big true, reputation.

Unfortunately, some Balkanites are very jealous of the ancient Greek civilization.

Greeks were as Californians present day but ancestors of others were Barbarians no matter where they originated from different areas Asia and Europe.

They did not have the benefits of a civilisation and culture like Greeks, including a letter and a written language.

Even some people try to find in their history something great that did not exist and then, in the absence of it, they fabricate.

All what we know about the ancient world comes from the Greeks (and other peoples who had a letter).

In today's interpretations it may seem that the Greeks felt superior, nationalistic, and humiliated Barbarians.

However, it has nothing to do with the truth.

Peter Wade, Race: An Introduction, 2015

(Quote)

“The Greeks did not try to divide humans up into types, according to their material, natural characteristics. Much more important was the form of political governance and civil association. The Greeks differentiated between themselves and ‘barbarians’, but this distinction was based not on geography, appearance or ancestry, but on how people lived. Barbarians were those who lived according to the laws of physics (‘nature’ in the sense of the domain of things that exist independent of human intervention) and thus lived brutishly, inarticulately, without real choice, governed by custom and habit alone, bound together by descent, and subject to tyranny and hierarchy. All people had to contend with physics and custom, but they did not have to be ruled by them alone. Those who lived by the rule of nomos – man-made laws operating through reason, moderation and properly formed speech in a public assembly – were civilised citizens who lived in the political way. People who lived under the rule of monarchs and despots would be inferior.”

Some of info-europeans went in Greece some went in Spain, some in France, some in Italy. The once that went in Greece had the state structure of the Minionians ready so their progress was faster. Jealousy for the Greece I have none....I just can't stand their lies.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
are not some of us going away from the very thread here? genetic origin
 
I meant from the modern distribution, like some common haplogroups that date to the middle Bronze Age for example.
We know south Caucasians and Greeks share a lot of J2a, but I think most of the downstream subclades shared between them have no relation to this hypothetical proto-Greek migration but date earlier (many to the early Bronze Age) and so better attributed to Minoans and other pre-Greek peoples.
There is one E-V13 Armenian guy who is Z5018+ (main Balkan subclade ?) but negative for downstream L17- Z16242- S2979- A2192- but he could still be a result of some old Greek presence in the area from Alexander to the Byzantines, assuming this basal subclade is to be found in modern Greece.
Kurds have a relatively high amount of E-V13, but no information which downstream subclade it is. could still be Balkanic in origin.
R1b-Z2103 should from now on be thought of as three subclades : L277 / L584 / Z2106 (or its subclade CTS7822). The first two are shared between Greeks and south Caucasians, but more common in the latter, while the third is mostly East European(including Greeks) and possibly central Asian with very few Armenian results.
Funny thing is that the most promising subclade to be the common denominator is the minor I2c2, it has all the requirement, 4000 TMRCA, 4% in Armenians and 2.3% in Greeks, (6% in Thessaly, 9% in Crete).
This was a useful post on Greek haplogroups
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-origin/page11?p=495469&viewfull=1#post495469
Armenian dna project
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/armeniadnaproject/about/background
not kurdish e-v13 but iranic
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/albania-iranian-aran-arm
6% found in the iranian province of Yazd and 5% found in ancient Albania in the caucsaus as per above aatachment

yazd province is not yazidi people
 
not kurdish e-v13 but iranic
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/albania-iranian-aran-arm
6% found in the iranian province of Yazd and 5% found in ancient Albania in the caucsaus as per above aatachment
yazd province is not yazidi people

Ancient Albania in the Caucasus is basically Azerbaijan. Sorry Sile, but could you help me locate the reference to the frequencies? I tried skimming through it but failed to locate it.

or because it doesn't exist ....
 
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Oh a lower fst score means closer and less drifted if i understand fst right

Pretty much. It must be some weirdly isolated population as Angela said, can't see any other explanation if they're wholly actual South Italians.
 
OK

since the thread is about Myceneans

the 9nth in volume Mycenean tomb that is revealed until today.
came to publicity today,

the area is Orchomenos

Among more than 4000 mycenean tombs escavated the last 150 years.


orxomail_eikona6.jpg




tafos.jpg



239278.jpg





239279.jpg




the tomb has a 20 m corridor reaching 6 m deep in the rock

the last photo is a cover with tin,

as I said many times before, Myceneans knew tin bronze,
while yamnaa used Arsenic bronze
 
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the last photo is a cover with tin,

as I said many times before Myceneans knew tin bronze,
while yamnaa used Arsenic bronze

the Mycenian era was not right after Yamna, it was after Sintashta, who had tin bronze

where the Mycenian tin came from, it is a riddle
 
the Mycenian era was not right after Yamna, it was after Sintashta, who had tin bronze

where the Mycenian tin came from, it is a riddle

tin in Greek is κασσιτερος cassiteros,
it gave the name to the islands and West coasts of meditterenean Κασσιτεριδες Νησοι Cassiterite islands

but from the loose of granite you can have tin in alluvian soils of rivers,
in balkans they gathered tin from low speed parts of river as alluvian deposits of granite lose
and still exist a lot of tin in areas where mountains pass through granite rock.

from antique it was considered as a 'healthy metal' for food cooking etc

we know Minoans, from a ship wreck, brought cassiteros from Britain

''Neolithic life in ancient Crete consisted of major settlements at Myrtos and Mochlos. During this period the Minoans had contact with Egypt, Asia Minor, and Syria with whom they traded for copper, tin, ivory, and gold.''

''
They also imported tin that was used in the production of bronze alloys. Interestingly, the nearest known tin mines appear as far as Spain, Britain, central Europe, and Iran.''


 
tin in Greek is κασσιτερος cassiteros,
it gave the name to the islands and West coasts of meditterenean Κασσιτεριδες Νησοι Cassiterite islands

but from the loose of granite you can have tin in alluvian soils of rivers,
in balkans they gathered tin from low speed parts of river as alluvian deposits of granite lose
and still exist a lot of tin in areas where mountains pass through granite rock.

from antique it was considered as a 'healthy metal' for food cooking etc

we know Minoans, from a ship wreck, brought cassiteros from Britain

''Neolithic life in ancient Crete consisted of major settlements at Myrtos and Mochlos. During this period the Minoans had contact with Egypt, Asia Minor, and Syria with whom they traded for copper, tin, ivory, and gold.''

''
They also imported tin that was used in the production of bronze alloys. Interestingly, the nearest known tin mines appear as far as Spain, Britain, central Europe, and Iran.''


do you know where these Cassiterite Islands were actually situated?

cassiterite is tinoxide ore, SnO2 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterite

it is possible that ores were more spread in small quantities in prehistory, in places we don't know of, because they are depleted

it has been told many times that tin from Cornwall was imported directly into the Mediterranean by Phoenicians and others, but I don't believe that, there is no proof for Mediterranean vessels of that time sailing the Atlantic coasts

there was also quite some tin in Iberia, especially northeast, and tin from Afghanistan, north of the Hindu Kush

there is tin in the ore mountains, central Europe, but strange enough no proof of any exploitation during or before antiquity
 
do you know where these Cassiterite Islands were actually situated?

cassiterite is tinoxide ore, SnO2 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterite

it is possible that ores were more spread in small quantities in prehistory, in places we don't know of, because they are depleted

it has been told many times that tin from Cornwall was imported directly into the Mediterranean by Phoenicians and others, but I don't believe that, there is no proof for Mediterranean vessels of that time sailing the Atlantic coasts

there was also quite some tin in Iberia, especially northeast, and tin from Afghanistan, north of the Hindu Kush

there is tin in the ore mountains, central Europe, but strange enough no proof of any exploitation during or before antiquity

Bicicleur, you may want to take a look at the link below. There was a small amount of tin in Italy and between Germany and Czech Republic, but apparently the Italian source was only used by the Etruscans, and they haven't found very many artifacts which can be sourced to the German area. It seems most of the tin was from Brittany and England.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassites

The name derives from the Greek kassiteros for "tin"; or from the Phoenician word Cassiterid referring to the islands of Ireland and Britain,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterite

[FONT=&quot]The mineral name is derived from the term “Cassiterides” which was applied 'islands off the western coast of Europe' in pre-Roman times (the exact location of these 'islands' has been hotly debated over the years, current thought is that the source was probably mainland Spain and that even 2000 years ago, traders had a habit of providing misleading locality information to protect their sources).

https://www.mindat.org/min-917.html


there is some quantity of tin in Greece,
it could be gathered like gold from rivers or digging alluvian deposits cause by rivers,

mainly in Greece is connected with fluore or calcium and not in a clear crystallic form[/FONT]
 
Bicicleur, you may want to take a look at the link below. There was a small amount of tin in Italy and between Germany and Czech Republic, but apparently the Italian source was only used by the Etruscans, and they haven't found very many artifacts which can be sourced to the German area. It seems most of the tin was from Brittany and England.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times

between Germany and Czech Republic are the ore mountains (Erzgebirge) which I was refering to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_Mountains
tin was exploited there during the middle ages, and it has been asumed tin was extracted there 2500 BC, before Brittany and Cornwall, but there was never proof of that, nor prehistoric bronze objects of which the tin could be traced back to the ore mountains, that is quite strange
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassites

The name derives from the Greekkassiteros for "tin"; or from the Phoenician word Cassiterid referring to the islands of Ireland and Britain,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterite

The mineral name is derived from the term “Cassiterides” which was applied 'islands off the western coast of Europe' in pre-Roman times (the exact location of these 'islands' has been hotly debated over the years, current thought is that the source was probably mainland Spain and that even 2000 years ago, traders had a habit of providing misleading locality information to protect their sources).

https://www.mindat.org/min-917.html


there is some quantity of tin in Greece,
it could be gathered like gold from rivers or digging alluvian deposits cause by rivers,

mainly in Greece is connected with fluore or calcium and not in a clear crystallic form

yes, I think alluvial deposits existed, but I guess these sources were depleted in a short time
we'll never know the exact locations of these depleted alluvial sources
 
yes, I think alluvial deposits existed, but I guess these sources were depleted in a short time
we'll never know the exact locations of these depleted alluvial sources

it is like first gold gathering from river banks
first iron gathering from red mud of river bed
etc,

Tin can be produced by loose - erosion of granite as crystal or as salt,
so by searching river bottoms, they surely gathered some quantities, who needed millenia to produced,

then surely when they learn and realize the abilities, they went further and further, reaching Cassiterides islands and start mining and merchntising
 
Greetings to all and my apologies for the off topic.


Herodotus defined Greek Identity as being one of BLOOD, first and foremost, then language, then customs and culture and tradition.

This was Athenian democrats (!!!) definition for the Greek identity. Herodotus just quoted them.
 
it is like first gold gathering from river banks
first iron gathering from red mud of river bed
etc,

Tin can be produced by loose - erosion of granite as crystal or as salt,
so by searching river bottoms, they surely gathered some quantities, who needed millenia to produced,

then surely when they learn and realize the abilities, they went further and further, reaching Cassiterides islands and start mining and merchntising

in prehistory almost all minable ores were discovered by alluvial deposits in streams coming from the mountains were the ores were hidden
 

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