Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

You gave wrong dates:

what has your answer (wrong dates) got to do with the below?
AS per Maciamo, it would look like this, Serbs descend from I2a1 48% and 15% R1a..... so 63% Slavic

Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic, this is the difference and this is what you don't understand for whatever reason.

dates no dates it looks like that Serbs are 63% Slavic, and Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic.


Now, you give wrong percents. Serbs have no 48% I2a1 (it would be nice).

This is what i have from below, you have other data?

SerbsIE (Slavic, South)1794.514.54817.35.62.23.3L=0.6Mirabal,V.2010[39]
 
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what has your answer (wrong dates) got to do with the below?
AS per Maciamo, it would look like this, Serbs descend from I2a1 48% and 15% R1a..... so 63% Slavic
Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic, this is the difference and this is what you don't understand for whatever reason.


dates no dates it looks like that Serbs are 63% Slavic, and Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic.




This is what i have from below, you have other data?

SerbsIE (Slavic, South)1794.514.54817.35.62.23.3L=0.6Mirabal,V.2010[39]


Spreadsheet #3 of that paper states ..........I2a ( xI2a1) for 100% of all these.

So Serbs have zero I2a1
 
This is what i have from below, you have other data?

SerbsIE (Slavic, South)1794.514.54817.35.62.23.3L=0.6Mirabal,V.2010[39]

You made mistake again, but it does not matter.

Yes, I know, my opinion is this American study is the best of all which were in Serbia. But you can see in Eupedia, data are something different because Maciamo took all studies which performed in Serbia. And I2a is 33%.

It is interesting Serbian project base (according peoples who give data) gives same result as Eupedia for I2a!, but some differences exist among other haplogroups. For better findings Serbia must do serious study with bigger samples and by regions. But for our discussion Serbia must do tests ancient samples, from Lepenski Vir, Vinca etc, and samples from BA/IA, period before and after Christ, etc. It will give cleaner picture.

Personally I like results for Serbia, we have several admixtures, we are vital. Without problems we tolerated different temperatures and extreme heat and extreme cold, we are neither too bright not too dark, etc. I had interesting discussions with LeBrok about hunter-gatherers and farmers, and it is good have mix of both worlds.

...
But to return to the thread. We have 17 pages but nothing to do between Pelasgian and Albanian, what it is normal because connection does not exist.

It is impossible to show that link exists between carriers of E-V13 and Pelasgian. Pelasgian definitely is not extinct language of E-V13.

Realistically, the thread does not make much sense and we here wasting time writing about completely different things.
 
Nemanjici were Serbian dynasty, Kosovo is Serbian land in Middle age, for example Tzar Stephan Dushan had capital in Prizren, it was Serbian city in that time. Cadastral tax census (defter) from 1455, for which I gave data, is Turkish, not Serbian. About Great migration of Serbs from Kosovo 1690, 1737-1739 wrote western sources, you can find where want. Christian Serbs were in the side with Christian Europe against Muslim Turks and their allies.


You mean Kosovo part might have been conquered, you don't really believe that there was ever 2% Gheg Albanians in Kosovo. No offence to you but that is pure Serbian Propaganda defter from 1455 turks, this is nonsense……


The below are from the very Transparent sources covering from most countries (so its not one sided nor either a propaganda)


Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars 1913 Argues (Austria, France, Russia, Great Britain, Germany, USA)

The various peoples who had occupied the different regions from the third to the sixth century, A. D. (the indigenous population, Greek, Albanian, or Roumanian having been either driven out or assimilated) served only to swell the armies or figure in the imposing titles assumed by the autocrats of all these, Servians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, conjoined in a sort of Imperial organization, a "Great Servia" or "Great Bulgaria."

The Balkan League (comprising: Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria) jointly attacked the Ottoman Empire and during the next few months partitioned all Ottoman territory inhabited by Albanians.[1]
A series of massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars were committed by the Serbian and Montenegrin Army and paramilitaries, according to international reports.[1]
Houses and whole villages reduced to ashes, unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence, pillage and brutality of every kind — such were the means which were employed and are still being employed by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians.[1]

From this time on nationalism distinctly gained ground in Servia. The whole of Macedonia was identified with "Old Servia" and "Young Servia," in its map, claimed the entire territory occupied under the rule of Stephen Douchan, in the fourteenth century. At this period the net work of Servian schools spread specially fast, thanks to the aid of the Turks, You can see how Turks and Servians collaborated with each other

official Turkish statistics admitted only one principle of discrimination between the ethnic, groups dwelling in Macedonia, namely religion. Thus all the Mahommedans formed a single group although there might be among them Turks, Albanians, Bulgarian "pomaks," etc. : all the patriarchists in the same way were grouped together as ''Greeks," although there might be among them Ser- vians, Wallachians, Bulgarians, etc.
So you gave me the turkish defter where it was with collaboration with Servians and you can see the admitted discrimination.

The War and the Nationalities
1. Extermination, Emigration, Assimilation
On September 20 last (new style), the Servian army carried off all the cattle of the Malesia of Dibra. and then began pillaging and burning all the villages on their way: Pechkapia, Pletza and Dochichti, in lower Dibra; Alai, Beg, Machi, Para, Oboku, Klobotchichta, and Solokitzi, in upper Dibra.
In all these villages the Servians committed acts of horrible massacre and outrage on women, children and old people.

The means employed by the Greek against the Bulgarian, by the Turk against the Slav, by the Servian against the Albanian, is no longer extermination or emigration; it is an indirect method which must, however/ lead to the same end, that of conversion and assimilation.

They have not merely resumed possession of their ancient domain, the Sandjak of Novi-Bazar and Old Servia proper (Kosovo Pole and Metchia), despite the fact that this historic domain was strongly Albanian.

https://archive.org/details/reportofinternat00inteuoft


i have showed you the source how Gheg ALbanians except from Kosovo they were majority even in the south Serbia by 1877....
Toplica, Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica valleys and adjoining semi-mountainous interior was inhabited by a compact AlbanianGeg population.[37][38] A mixed Albanian Serbian population also resided in the adjacent Morava river basin.[37] Urban centers such as Kuršumlija were almost wholly Albanian populated and Prokuplje had an Albanian plurality.[37] While Leskovac,Vranje and Niš were inhabited with sizable urban Albanian and partially Turkified Albanian populations, that lived alongside the Serbs.[37]
January 1878 Serb forces continued their south west advance entering other Albanian populated valleys of Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica.[37]Serb forces in the Morava valley continued to head for Vranje, with the intention of then turning west and entering Kosovo proper.[37]
Albanian refugees continued to retreat toward Kosovo and their march was halted at the Goljak Mountains when an armistice was declared.[37]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...ttoman_Muslims
http://balkanologie.revues.org/265

Danish Source....

KaartGodsdBalkan.jpg


Vilajet Kossowo:
418.000Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
9.000Mahomedaansche Turken
14.000Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
250.000Christene Bulgaren
113.000Orthodoxe Serviërs
900Orthodoxe Wallachen
200Orthodoxe Grieken
22.000Gemengd


Albanians with Serbs from 100% Albanian Serbs have 25% (Except from current Kosovo, even covering large part of South west Serbia, north east Montenegro, parts of western Macedonia)

Vilajet Skutari1:
80.000Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
40.000Mahomedaansche Serviërs
1.200Mahomedaansche Turken
5.000Mahomedaansche Zwitsers
14.000Katholieke Albaneezen
30.000Christene Serviërs
10.000Orthodoxe Wallachen
5.000Jode

Vilajet Janina:
180.000Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
10.000Mahomedaansche Turken
180.000Orthodoxe Wallachen
110.000Orthodoxe Albaneezen
110.000Orthodoxe Grieken
25.000Katholieke Albaneezen
20.000Christen Bulgaren
7.000Christen Zigeuners
6.000Joden


Vilajet Monastir:
219.000Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
11.500Mahomedaansche Turken
24.000Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
331.000Christene Bulgaren
62.000Orthodoxe Grieken
65.000Orthodoxe Wallachen
35.000Gemengde

http://users.skynet.be/ovo/GodsdBalkan.html


640px-Vilayet_of_Kosovo_%281881%E2%80%931912%29_map.png



You don't seem to know about Gjergj KAstrioti (skanderbeg) from a Kastrioti family Gheg Albanian fought agains the ottomans for so long, and he was considered by many in western Europe to be a model of Christian resistance against the Ottoman. He has united all the Albanian prince's agains the Ottomans
Gjergj Kastrioti was born in 1405[G] in one of the two villages owned by his grandfather Pal Kastrioti.[A] Skanderbeg's father was Gjon Kastrioti, lord of Middle Albania, which included Mat, Mirditë and Dibër.[21]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg


Another battle occurred between the Hungarian troops supported by the Albanian ruler George Kastrioti Skanderbeg on one side, and Ottoman troops supported by the Branković dynasty in 1448. Skanderbeg's troops which were going to help John Hunyadi were stopped by the Branković's troops, who was more or less an Ottoman vassal.
Hungarian King John Hunyadi lost the battle after a 2-day fight, but essentially stopped the Ottoman advance northwards. Kosovo then became vassalaged to the Ottoman Empire, until its direct incorporation as the Vilayet of Kosovo after the final fall of Serbia in 1459.


You see how even in above post (International commission) and this one here Serbians collaborates with Ottomans, and you were sourcing Brankovic Dynasty collaboration with turks, and therefore making your so called "facts" (defteri) one sided, highly suspicious and unreliable. (therefore i sourced you the international sources)
 
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noUseForAname

Ridicuously. You are talking about 1877, 1913. It is good that you don’t speak about present day situation. We are talking about Middle Age not 19th or 29th century.


You can see Serbia in Middle age (1265) in the time of Serbian dynasty Nemanjici. Kosovo is in Serbia. (Albanians are far.)
1024px-ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg


These are facts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

1321–31
The Dečani chrysobulls from 1321-1331 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia contains a detailed list of households and villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania. The first charter concludes that this region was ethnically Serb.[15] 89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded, out of which 86 were Serb (96,6%), and 3 were Albanian (3,3%); there were 2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households, out of which 2,122 were Serb (98%), and 44 were Albanian (2%).[16]

1455
Main article: 1455 defter of the Branković lands
The Ottoman cadastral tax census (defter) of 1455 in the Branković lands (covering most of present-day Kosovo) recorded:

  • 480 villages,
  • 13,693 adult males,
  • 12,985 dwellings,
  • 14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males).

Yugoslav and Serbian scholars have researched the defter, concluding that:[17]

  • 13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
  • 75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
  • 46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
  • 17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
  • 5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
  • 1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
  • 1 Croat dwelling

Out of all names mentioned in this census, conducted by the Ottomans in 1455, covering areas of most of present-day Kosovo, 95.88% of all names were of Serbian origin, 1.90% of Roman origin, 1.56% of uncertain origin, 0.26% of Albanian origin, 0.25% of Greek origin, etc.[18][19]
...

Battle of Kosovo was 1389. Christian Serbs had fewer soldiers than Muslim Turks. Serbs fought honourably defending Europe. Unfortunately Ottomans won and after that Serbia falls under Muslim rule.

Occupation of Balkans was costing for the Europe. Turks and their Balkan Muslim allies invaded deeper in Europe. Austria, Hungary and allies led one of the longest wars in history. Serbs were Austrian and Hungarian allies. Because of that Turks did the terrible retribution against Serbs. Of course during the centuries of occupation not only Serbs, all Balkan Christians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Tsintsars, etc. suffered greatly due to the depredations of the Turks and their Balkan Muslim allies.

Unfortunately Serbs had to migrate from their lands. Serbs began to left Kosovo first time in Great exodus in time of Ottoman empire, in 1690 and 1737-1739. In Ottoman time (from 17th century) began colonization Albanian tribes to Kosovo. In that time Albanians already were mostly Muslim. Albanians mostly converted to Islam in 15 and 16 century.

Kosovo is known as Old Serbia. The name of Kosovo is Serbian origin. It is Serbian neuter possessive adjective of word kos (= blackbird), an ellipsis for Kosovo Polje = field of the blackbirds. But full name of province is Kosovo and Metohija. Word Metohija is Greek origin and it means monastic estates (Gr. μετόχια =metókhia, metochion).

...
Haplogroups in the Kosovo and Metohija changed. Probably several centuries ago haplogroup I2a was dominated. Now it is E-V13. It is example how judging from current situation means that misleads.
 

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From Edi Shukriu's "Prehistory and Antique History of Kosova"(I can't find it anymore,so I'll copy-paste it) :

"The integration processes went on during the Bronze Age (2100 – 1200), relying on mine and trade economy, along with the agricultural and farming ones. The small number of dug localities of Bronze Age enables only general conclusions on the existence of settlements on lower hills (Vlashnjë, Teneshdoll) and on the plain (Ljushtë, Qëndresan/Gllarevë, Glladnicë, Nasalë/Nosalë, Berrnicë); of tumular necropolises of the mid Bronze Age (Rugovë, Ujz, Përçetë/Përçevë) and of field necropolises with urns (Berrnicë, Grashticë) in the transition from Bronze Age to the Iron Age. The findings in Kosova proved commercial links with the developed Mycenaean culture, during the mid Bronze Age (XVI-XV centuries) and this heralds the possibility of earlier contacts and influences with Mediterranean civilizations."


"The settlements of Proto-Dardanian stage are located on elevated terraces near rivers (Kllokot, Nasalë, Fafos II), whilst in the Dardanian stage they were located on higher hills. The Dardanian stage settlements are multilayered, which is an expression of empowerment of Dardanians and of their sustainable economic resources (Upper Gadime, Hisar and Kasterc of Suharekë, Veletin, Big Bardh, Cernicë, Dubofc, Vlashnjë, Cermnjan, Zatriq, Pidiq, Teneshdoll, Artanë/ Novobërdë etc.). In the Iron Age surrounding earth ramparts mixed with stones were constructed (Kulinë/Teneshdoll) or only stone ramparts (Veletin). Hilly settlements are mainly known by the name gradina and g(r)adisha (Indo-European.: gard, Albanian: gardh=fence).7 In the Pre-Dardanian stage the burying was done also in flat graves with urns – Berrnica culture (Berrnicë, Grashticë), whilst during the Dardanian stage in tumular necropolises, practicing both rituals, the one of cremation and that of coffin-burials (Romajë, Rogovë, Ujz, Shirokë, Dibiçak, Porodime, Përçetë/Përçevë, Bajë of Pejë, Llashtishtë, Gurëz/ Gërlicë, Biti, Moklikë). Tumular necropolises of Kosova belong to the Glasinac complex and are related to tombs of Kukës, Mat and Gllasinac."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brnjica_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac_culture

Brnjica(Bernice),cremation,using cinerary urns=Daco-Moesian culture

Glasinac,inhumation=Illyrian


"The numerous Roman settlements prove about a life dynamics, and about the increase of inhabitants in it, with the settlement of Roman administrators and soldiers. The municipiums like Ulpiana near Prishtina, Municipium DD near Soçanica, Vendenis near Gllamnik, Viciano and Theranda became administrative centres. Near other roads axes larger centres were developed, such as Gradina in the southeast of Pejë and the municipiums at Dersnik of Klinë, Çiflak of Gjakovë and Gushica of Viti."


"The polytheist tradition allowed along the respect of local gods, in special of Dardanian Goddess, god Andindus or of gods related to the cult of horses and the cavalry tradition, also other gods to be appropriated and respected, who came along with the Roman rule. Such were the Roman gods Jupiter, Minerva, Fortune, Mercury, Diane or the others as Mithra, Isida, Serapis and Jupiter Dolihen, Nemezis, Orpheus, Hecate, Asclepius, Hygia or Telesphont. It seems that it belongs to the earlier tradition also the respecting of the Thracian Knight and Danubian Knight, as interpretations of local gods, and of Thracian goddess Zbeltiurdus."


"Local elements bear also the vulgar Latin language and the onomastic, mainly Illyrian, such as the names: Longarus, Bato, Monunius, Etuta, Andia, Andio/Andinus, Annus, Anna, Catulla(?), Cinna, Cito, Dasius/Dassius, Dicco, Epicadus, Epicaris, Mesius/Messa, Nanea, Plannius, Scervidaeus, Sita, Tata/Tatta, Times, Turanis, Turelius, Vanno, Varanus, Vananilla, Varadius).60 Within the onomastic also Thracian names and names present only for the Dardanian territory have been proved, such as Ambia, Blicites, Bubita, Cocaius, Ettela, Maema, Mescena, Mesta, Momonia, Ninis, Passades, Pitta, Romma, Sausa, Utinadus



That's nice:


"The created Dardanian entity, the subjectivity of pre-Roman Dardania and the long resistance against the Romans, made the Dardanians to evade the complete Romanisation and at the same time to appropriate plenty of elements of Roman provincial culture, and, afterwards, of the early Byzantine on"



Very interesting info regarding the Ancient Dardania, the link below shows some links with Dardanian, Greek and Roman....

Two labyrinths and Dardanian, Greek and Roman relations by Dea Dardanica’s monument

2-247a210cf4.png

3-18b36f38dc.jpg



4-0bcbd80411.jpg




https://www.academia.edu/1787671/Two_labyrinths_and_Dardanian_Greek_and_Roman_relations
 
noUseForAname

You can see Serbia in Middle age (1265) in the time of Serbian dynasty Nemanjici. Kosovo is in Serbia. (Albanians are far.)

We are not arguing about the kingdoms nor empires, everyone knows that they conquer (colonize) and inhabit already inhabited indigenous peoples soil. (again you are sourcing mostly Serbian Sources),
Major international studies argue....


Despite the facts that ancient tribe of Dardani which inhabited the region prior to the Roman conquest (28 BC–6 AD).
The etymology of the name Dardania has been associated with the Albanian word "dardha" meaning pear. [1]Bardyllis was a king of Dardania whose name in Albanian literally means "White-Star" from Bardh(White) and Yll(Star).[2] The region was inhabited by Illyrians,Celts[3][4] and Thracians.[4][5]
(sources are International)


1024px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_(Europe)


Since 238, Moesia was constantly invaded or raided by the Carpi, and the Goths, who had already invaded Moesia in 250. You see here Moesia and not Dardania, and as we discussed before serbs have very high Carpi genetics and its exactly (moesia not Dardania) at the current far north Serbia. Also Carpi never invaded Dardania.

800px-Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png



1994, p. 74
the Hungarian attack launched in 1183 with which Nemanja was allied [...] was able to conquer Kosovo and Metohija, including Prizren.

You see what i mean Nemanja Dynasty conquer Kosovo, (probably from the very north)


You see what Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars 1913 Argues (Austria, France, Russia, Great Britain, Germany, USA)T

he various peoples who had occupied the different regions from the third to the sixth century, A. D. (the indigenous population, Greek, Albanian, or Roumanian having been either driven out or assimilated) served only to swell the armies or figure in the imposing titles assumed by the autocrats of all these, Servians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, conjoined in a sort of Imperial organization, a "Great Servia" or "Great Bulgaria."

So Serbs are not indigenous of these Soils, (now if they colonized the area it doesn't mean it's Serbian)

From this time on nationalism distinctly gained ground in Servia. The whole of Macedonia was identified with "Old Servia" and "Young Servia," in its map, claimed the entire territory occupied under the rule of Stephen Douchan, in the fourteenth century. At this period the net work of Servian schools spread specially fast, thanks to the aid of the Turks, so they collaborated with Turks to gain more Soil, and Old Servia as you can see is just a Serbian nationalism (this is from the international detailed report)

The means employed by the Greek against the Bulgarian, by the Turk against the Slav, by the Servian against the Albanian, is no longer extermination or emigration; it is an indirect method which must, however/ lead to the same end, that of conversion and assimilation.

They have not merely resumed possession of their ancient domain, the Sandjak of Novi-Bazar and Old Servia proper (Kosovo Pole and Metchia), despite the fact that this historic domain was strongly Albanian.

You see middle ages you mention Kosovo strongly Albanian, even Novi Bazar, you see Old Servia is just a nationalistic by Serbs (this is from the international detailed report)

https://archive.org/details/reportofinternat00inteuoft


If they would have been so indegineous then why the most recent study does not include Serbs as early inhabitants of South east Europe? but they include Greeks Albanians Bulgarians Croats?
Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg


1321–31
The Dečani chrysobulls from 1321-1331 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia contains a detailed list of households and villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania. The first charter concludes that this region was ethnically Serb.[15] 89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded, out of which 86 were Serb (96,6%), and 3 were Albanian (3,3%); there were 2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households, out of which 2,122 were Serb (98%), and 44 were Albanian (2%).[16]

Pure Serbian propaganda, from these 2 sources their Serbian (i told you please no Serbian Sources only international) You call these facts?
(16) Prof. Djordje Janković, Ph.D Archaeological department. Faculty of Philosophy, Belgrade University
(17) Pavle Ivić and Milica Grković, Dečanske hrisovulje, Serbian


1455

Main article: 1455 defter of the Branković lands
The Ottoman cadastral tax census (defter) of 1455 in the Branković lands (covering most of present-day Kosovo) recorded:

official Turkish statistics admitted only one principle of discrimination between the ethnic, groups dwelling in Macedonia, namely religion. Thus all the Mahommedans formed a single group although there might be among them Turks, Albanians, Bulgarian "pomaks," etc. : all the patriarchists in the same way were grouped together as ''Greeks," although there might be among them Ser- vians, Wallachians, Bulgarians, etc. (this is from the international detailed report), you see how the statistics are unreliable....

I have sourced how Brankovic collaborated with turks and together they fought agains Ghegj Kastrioti (so no Tukish and Serbian sources please)

Another battle occurred between the Hungarian troops supported by the Albanian ruler George Kastrioti Skanderbeg on one side, and Ottoman troops supported by the Branković dynasty in 1448. Skanderbeg's troops which were going to help John Hunyadi were stopped by the Branković's troops, who was more or less an Ottoman vassal.
Hungarian King John Hunyadi lost the battle after a 2-day fight, but essentially stopped the Ottoman advance northwards. Kosovo then became vassalaged to the Ottoman Empire, until its direct incorporation as the Vilayet of Kosovo after the final fall of Serbia in 1459.


Out of all names mentioned in this census, conducted by the Ottomans in 1455, covering areas of most of present-day Kosovo, 95.88% of all names were of Serbian origin, 1.90% of Roman origin, 1.56% of uncertain origin, 0.26% of Albanian origin, 0.25% of Greek origin, etc.[18][19]

OMG all Serbian propaganda Sources again (please no Serbian sources)

(19) Slavica Jovovic, Veroqub Nikolic, Beograd - Serbian
(18) In 1972 the Sarajevo Institute of Middle Eastern Studies - Bosnian Serbian


Battle of Kosovo was 1389. Christian Serbs had fewer soldiers than Muslim Turks. Serbs fought honourably defending Europe. Unfortunately Ottomans won and after that Serbia falls under Muslim rule.

All Balkan inhabitants fought against Ottomans, Gjergj Kastrioti was considered by many in western Europe to be a model of Christian resistance against the Ottoman, however Serbs collaborated in various occasions with turks, whilst gaining more land inhabited mostly by Gegh Albanians.

Battle of Kosovo is a big myth
Miloš Obilić (Serbian Cyrillic: Милош Обилић, pronounced [mîloʃ ôbilit͡ɕ]; died 1389) was a Serbian knight in the service of Prince Lazar, during the invasion of the Ottoman Empire. He is not mentioned in contemporary sources, but he features prominently in later accounts of the Battle of Kosovo as the assassin of the Ottoman sultan Murad I. Although the assassin remains anonymous in sources until the late 15th century, the dissemination of the story of Murad's assassination in Florentine, Serbian, Ottoman and Greek sources suggests that versions of it circulated widely across the Balkans within half a century after the event.
It is not certain whether Obilić actually existed, but Lazar's family – strengthening their political control – "gave birth to the myth of Kosovo", including the story of Obilić.[1]

Venetians were uncertain if news about the assassination of Sultan Murat were true.[15]

There are two main views about the creation of the Kosovo legend. In one view, its place of origin lies in the region in which the Battle of Kosovo was fought. In the other view, the legend sprang up in more westerly Balkan regions under the influence of the French chansons de geste.


This is why i mention to you no Serbian sources please...
 
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Very interesting info regarding the Ancient Dardania, the link below shows some links with Dardanian, Greek and Roman....

Two labyrinths and Dardanian, Greek and Roman relations by Dea Dardanica’s monument

2-247a210cf4.png

3-18b36f38dc.jpg



4-0bcbd80411.jpg




https://www.academia.edu/1787671/Two_labyrinths_and_Dardanian_Greek_and_Roman_relations



Nice slabs,thanks for sharing!



Reminds me of a couple of guys, that acted in a pretty offensive manner:


https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Justin_I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I



"The new emperor was already elderly and his background was humble.
He originated from Latin-speaking Illyricum, having been born at
Bederiana, near Naissus (Nis), and he owed his success to his career in the
guard."


"Justin reopened relations with Rome;
Theoderic’s son-in-law Eutharic became western consul for 519 with Justin
himself as his eastern colleague, and the ending of the Acacian schism
between Constantinople and the papacy was announced in Constantinople
in terms favourable to Rome at the end of March, 519.13 Predictably, this
led to discontent among eastern Christians, which was met by repression;
this was to cause difficulties for Justinian later,14 and the 520s also saw the
appearance of other doctrinal issues, with which he had to struggle as
emperor"

Justinian relied on his Balkaneers,but the Plague ,with its dreadful consequences,ruined their plans(since words are meaningless,and forgettable,I rely on copy-paste):

"The Balkan peninsula alone supplied nearly
half the eastern emperors, while Constantinople or its environs apparently
gave birth to only one western (Anthemius) and two eastern emperors
(Theodosius II and Justin II).

The geographic pattern is closely connected with emperors’ professional
backgrounds, since the army recruited heavily in the Balkans. In fact,
military careers or families supplied at least half of the emperors, whereas
fewer than a fifth had significant backgrounds in the civilian bureaucracy."

"In spite of the best efforts of emperors, especially Anastasius and
Justinian, the Balkan provinces remained an unsettled area. Anastasius’
actions in the eastern Balkans were undermined by the troubles associated
with Vitalian’s revolt, which was centred on the lower Danube and the
Black Sea coast, while under Justinian the Balkans had to cede precedence
to military activity elsewhere in the empire: after the start of the western
reconquest this became a serious problem – Balkan military commanders
are found in action in Italy and large numbers of troops were recruited in
the Balkans for service in the west."




He did everything for the ladies,not by the ladies,because the Roman society was patriarchal:


"Justinian’s activity as codifier of imperial Roman law was of immense
importance in its later transmission and adoption in western Europe. But
he was also an energetic legislator himself – indeed, restless innovation is
one of Procopius’ charges against him. Vehement against homosexuals, his
legislation on family matters gives more rights to mothers and recognizes
women as being in need of protection, also allowing them to initiate
divorce, even if on restricted grounds."


Now, 100% seriously

As for Edi's last remark(from my previous post), it's undeniable that the Roman presence here was significant,simply because the Balkans had a strategic importance,especially the Danube's limes,which was the core of Romanization.
Certain events hastened this process:



"Most cities survived the period of Gothic ravaging
and settlement, partly because Goths were not skilled besiegers, but
rural hinterlands upon which the vitality of cities depended had been seriously
affected. This stimulated a significant change in the pattern of settlement,
with the abandonment of isolated rural villages that previously had
served as nuclei for exploiting the countryside and a migration of population
to the safety of urban defences or upland refuges.2 Some cities might
benefit from an influx of wealthy rural inhabitants who now relocated their
grand villas inside the walls, while others in more exposed places received
impoverished country people but lost their élites. Walls were strengthened
or rebuilt, perhaps to enclose a restricted, more defensible, circuit, though
habitation might still extend beyond the central defended area, as at Athens"(Cambridge Ancient History,vol.14)

P.S.

Justinian,Justin,The Romans/Dardanians/Thracians/Illyrians,NoUser,Angela, the slabs,were not involved in the irony.
 
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noUseForAname

Step by step especially about your word which you use very much: propaganda. Which propaganda?

1.
Ah that non-existent Serbian propaganda. Serbs are everywhere. Map is from William R. Sheperd’s Historical Atlas 1911. He had to be Serb, what do you think. William R. Sheperd spreads Serbian propaganda.

Good joke.

But come one once again to look up this map from 1265.

1024px-ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg


Not only Kosovo and Metohija was Serbian, even present day North Albania was Serbian. Historically Skadar was Serbian city. One time Skadar was the Serbian capital.

What do more we see in the map?

Albanians lived in Despotat of Epirus. Whole area wasn’t Albanian, I will not here about percentages of Albanians. There lived Epirotes Greeks and Tsintsars (or Vlachs or Aromanians).


2.
What were Decani charters signed by Serbian king Uros?

The Dečani chrysobulls or Dečani charters are chrysobulls dating to 1321-1331, signed by Stefan Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia, the Serbian King, which contains a detailed list of households and villages in what is today Metohija and northwestern Albania.
(Metohija is Western part of Kosovo and Metohija).

Charter_of_De%C4%8Dani_by_Stefan_Uro%C5%A1_III.png


King Stefan Dečanski (r. 1321–1331) mentioned that the court dignitaries present at the Dečani assembly were the kaznac, tepčija, vojvoda, sluga and stavilac.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dečani_chrysobulls
Demographics

The first charter concludes that the region was ethnically Serb.
89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded of which:

86 Serbian settlements (96,6%)
3 Albanian settlements (3,3%)
2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households:
2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)

You can claim this is Middle age Serbian propaganda (!?) but you must know that 1321-1331 things were different. At that time nations did not exist in modern sense. To landlord was completely irrelevant who were his serfs: Serbs, Albanians, Martians etc.

There were not Albanians in Metohija (Eastern part of Kosovo and Metohija) and very small Albanian community in present day North Albania. Whole area was Serbian.

You can see this document.


Ok. You can say: “The Earth does not revolve around Sun”. Who cares.


3.
Turkish defter of Brankovics land (cadastral tax census of area which mostly covers present day Kosovo and Metohija) is not Serbian propaganda, too.

You don’t know details and you’re trying to shout: Serbian propaganda. Serbian propaganda.

But there is no propaganda.

Because Serbs didn’t study Turkish defters!

You don’t know relations in Tito’s Yugoslavia. In this country was brotherhood and unity, no one nation was hegemonistic. You know, Albanians from Albania in the time of Enver Hoxha fled to Yugoslavia (SR Serbia, SR Montenegro, etc.) because life in Yugoslavia was much better and freedom was incomparably greater than in Albania.

Yugoslav communists and scientists wanted to reveal the truth about history. Researches were very serious and findings were respected from International scientific community.

Since the Turkish defter from 1455 was a sensitive issue, and since Bosnian scientists were the best experts for medieval Turkish, this and other Turkish defters didn’t study scientists Serbian nationality but scientists Bosniacs nationality, Muslims by faith. For this defter And they consulted Turkish experts.

Scientists are: Hamid Hadzibegic, Adem Handzic and Esref Kovacevic, all Muslim Bosniacs. Authors are not ethnic Serbs.
Their book is published and everyone can see, publisher is: Oriental Institute Sarajevo, Bosnia.

Original data are in Turkey, Istambul, who don’t believe he or she can go to the Turkey.

noUseForAname
Do you know what nonsense you said. Scientists Muslim Bosniacs and Turks spread Serbian propaganda!?
No, they don’t spread propaganda, they translated original documents with Medieval Turkish and prepared according science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1455_defter_of_the_Branković_lands

Findings:
There were 13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns.

There were only 46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages, it is smaller than 75 Vlach (Aromanian) dwellings in 34 villages.

Findings of Muslim Bosnian scientists say that in Kosovo of 1455 lived Serbs in all 480 dwellings.

There were no Albanians in significant percent (only 0.3% Albanian dwellings).

Out of all names mentioned in this census, conducted by the Ottomans in 1455, covering areas of most of present-day Kosovo:

95.88% of all names were of Serbian origin,
1.90% of Roman origin, (Vlachs or Aromanians)
1.56% of uncertain origin,
0.26% of Albanian origin,
0.25% of Greek origin, etc.

The mostly names in defter are:
Radislav (male name)1.478
Bogdan (male name) 1.209 and
Radica (female name) 1.204.

Maybe these are Albanian names, what do you think noUseForAname?

But everyone who knows Serbian or Slavic names for him or her it is clear that they are Serbs.

It is 66 years after Battle of Kosovo which Turks won, and Serbia 1455 is under Turkish rule.

I can give in every post names and surnames Serbs in defter and whole Turkish defter if you want to study, side by side, but not in this thread, of course I can open new thread.
 
Garrick


I think you are not reading my posts entirely, or maybe you also lack understanding of English language, (but here i explain again for the last time).

1:
William R. Sheperd’s Historical Atlas 1911.

We are not arguing about the kingdoms nor empires, everyone knows that they conquer (colonize) and inhabit already inhabited indigenous peoples soil, Do you see Bulgaria map so different from now?, you see kingdom of Armenia in south Turkey, Macedonia is not even on the map, Greece all divided in small pieces....do you understand now, how can you claim it's Serbian?, do you see Hungary took all of the Serbia north to mid up to Beograd?...do you understand now that we are not talking about who took what, but talk about indigenous populations and where they were mostly located.

Now from the same year 1911, and as we were talking about populations (not kingdoms) check the Danish source about populations before and during ottomans....
http://users.skynet.be/ovo/GodsdBalkan.html

If
we claim as you are claiming then we should also claim that the whole area was Bulgarian because Bulgarian empire covered all those areas. Bulgarian Empire (839 to 1241)Now i think you must understand better....


2:
1321–31 The Dečani chrysobullsfrom - 2% Albanian

this ALL sources are Serbian (i told you please no Serbian Sources only international)
(16) Prof. Djordje Janković, Ph.D Archaeological department. Faculty of Philosophy, Belgrade University
(17) Pavle Ivić and Milica Grković, Dečanske hrisovulje, Serbian

Look at the source you placed in wilki - all Serbian fairy tales...not even one international
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dečani_chrysobulls
Demographics

Srđan Šarkić (1996). Matica srpska. p. 66.
Milica Grković, 2004, First charter of Dečani:
Pavle Ivić and Milica Grković, 1976


3:

1455 Main article: 1455 defter of the Branković lands

Brankovic dynasty is only medieval noble family and dynasty, how can you claim because they colonized the lands all inhabitants were Serbian
So probably they would try to defend their colonized lands by claiming everyone was serbian. what about Bulgarian empire (839 to 1241) of all those areas should we claim it was all Bulgarian?...So Kosovo is Bulgarian now?

official Turkish statistics admitted only one principle of discrimination between the ethnic, groups dwelling in Macedonia, namely religion. Thus all the Mahommedans formed a single group although there might be among them Turks, Albanians, Bulgarian "pomaks," etc. : all the patriarchists in the same way were grouped together as ''Greeks," although there might be among them Ser- vians, Wallachians, Bulgarians, etc. (this is from the international detailed report), you see how the statistics are unreliable....

I have sourced how Brankovic collaborated with turks and together they fought agains Ghegj Kastrioti (so no Tukish and Serbian sources please)
Another battle occurred between the Hungarian troops supported by the Albanian ruler George Kastrioti Skanderbeg on one side, and Ottoman troops supported by the Branković dynasty in 1448. Skanderbeg's troops which were going to help John Hunyadi were stopped by the Branković's troops, who was more or less an Ottoman vassal.Hungarian King John Hunyadi lost the battle after a 2-day fight, but essentially stopped the Ottoman advance northwards. Kosovo then became vassalaged to the Ottoman Empire, until its direct incorporation as the Vilayet of Kosovo after the final fall of Serbia in 1459.

Look what source you have given all Cyrillic Serbian
http://www.eparhijaprizren.com/sites/default/files/users/4/brankovici_popis_pregled.pdf

And we know who controlled former Yugoslavia, it was all Serbia and with its propaganda, they controlled everything even the army thats why they started the war in 1992 agains Croatia Slovenia and Bosnia thus intending to occupy and create Great Serbia. Plus everyone knows about the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo done by Serbia. Now imagine how big was this Propaganda in the year 1992 despite the fact that people had TV's and internet, now imagine the propaganda at 14th Century without TV nor internet....they could have written whatever they wanted, fairy tales and so fourth....


4:
Slavs are mentioned in the area since the 520s AD, with the Slav tribe of Sklavenoi settling the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum(Constantine Porphyrogenitus: De administrando imperio)...

Despite the facts that ancient tribe of Dardani which inhabited the region prior to the Roman conquest (28 BC–6 AD).
The etymology of the name Dardania has been associated with the Albanian word "dardha" meaning pear. [1]Bardyllis was a king of Dardania whose name in Albanian literally means "White-Star" from Bardh(White) and Yll(Star).[2] The region was inhabited by Illyrians,Celts[3][4] and Thracians.[4][5]
(sources are International)


Check the posts above how Ancient Dardania had links with Ancient Greece, Genetics also support this why Gheg Albanians have highest E-V13 which was descend from south east Europe.


1024px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png



Since 238, Moesia was constantly invaded or raided by the Carpi, and the Goths, who had already invaded Moesia in 250. You see here Moesia and not Dardania, and as we discussed before serbs have very high Carpi genetics and its exactly (moesia not Dardania) at the current far north Serbia. Also Carpi never invaded Dardania.


800px-Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png


1994, p. 74
the Hungarian attack launched in 1183 with which Nemanja was allied [...] was able to conquer Kosovo and Metohija, including Prizren.

You see what i mean Nemanja Dynasty conquer Kosovo, (probably from the very north)


Now you see if we go back it was Serbian kingdom colonizing, before that Bulgarian kingdom, but we see Dardania before the both....now see what Dardania means....
The etymology of the name Dardania has been associated with the Albanian word "dardha" meaning pear. [1]Bardyllis was a king of Dardania whose name in Albanian literally means "White-Star" from Bardh(White) and Yll(Star).[2] The region was inhabited by Illyrians,Celts[3][4] and Thracians.[4][5]
(sources are International)

And see what Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars 1913 Argues (Austria, France, Russia, Great Britain, Germany, USA)T

The various peoples who had occupied the different regions from the third to the sixth century, A. D. (the indigenous population, Greek, Albanian, or Roumanian having been either driven out or assimilated) served only to swell the armies or figure in the imposing titles assumed by the autocrats of all these, Servians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, conjoined in a sort of Imperial organization, a "Great Servia" or "Great Bulgaria."

So Serbs are not indigenous of these Soils, (now if they colonized the area it doesn't mean it's Serbian)


i give you the answers multi quote by multi quote, you never answer my international sources, and instead you lack understanding and plus source Serbian Sources were we agreed not to (only international)
 
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@ noUseforaname

ok are you tired?
what are you trying to prove?
that Albanianas were before Serbians?
the αυτοχθονες crap of Rama?

tell me
1) were Albanians before Triballi τριβαλλοι?
2) is the Albanian Vallavan pasha the father of modern Albanians?
3) in which group Albanian language belong? in South European or in North European?
4) Hunjades what nationality he was? Avar or Cuman/Kuman?

don't answer with the last linguistic crap with the continuous adding mistake of input loan words that makes mistakes, and is very common in this forum, although there is a thread telling how mistaken is,
 
@ garrick,

what are trying to prove?

1) that Serbs were before Thracians?
2) that Albanians came from Iran?
3) That last Serb died in Kossovo, and had Skopje as capital, but they moved North?
 
@ garrick,

what are trying to prove?

1) that Serbs were before Thracians?
2) that Albanians came from Iran?
3) That last Serb died in Kossovo, and had Skopje as capital, but they moved North?

Yetos
Your questions are very good, but everyone can see why I wrote about this.

If someone looks up reason I only replicated to Sile's thesis that haplogroups in Dardania didn't change. I think haplogroups had changes, big changes because inhabitants changed completely.

the epicentre of E-V13 belongs to the ancient Dardani
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-7653/2006/0350-76530637007P.pdf

when E-v13 was in most of the balkans/and other parts of Europe , the dardani where the only ones that stayed together to build up over time this high % in Modern Kosovo


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

Sile, yes today is such situation.

But in Middle century was completely different.

You can see Turkish cadastral tax census (defter) 1455 in the Brankovic lands (covering present-day Kosovo):

13.000 Serb dwellings
75 Vlach dwellings
46 Albanian dwellings
17 Bulgarian dwellings
5 Greek dwellings
1 Jewish dwelling
1 Croat dwelling

One century earlier, in 14 century, 86 settlements were Serbian (96.6%) and 3 were Albanian (2%); where there were 2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households, from that, 2,122 were Serbs (98%) and 44 were Albanian (2%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

In Ottoman time (from 17th century) began colonization Albanian tribes to Kosovo.

Serbs began to left Kosovo first time in Great exodus in time of Ottoman empire, in 1690 and 1737-1739. Austrian and other European forces in war Austria-Turkey, reached Skopje, Serbs fought with Austrians and other European Christians against Ottoman Muslims, but Ottomans won, and lot of Serbs had to go to exile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

...
What we Sile don't know?

We don't know which haplogroups had Serbs in the time when they accounted almost entire population of Kosovo. We don't know haplogroups in the time of Dardania. We don't know haplogroups before Dardania, etc.

We know very little. Today situation is recent and it doesn't reflect situation as it was yesterday, the day before yesterday, or further in the past.

In Middle age in Kosovo lived Serbs, almost 100%. Today situation is different. Because haplogroups of inhabitants of Kosovo in Middle time and today are different, I think my answer to Sile is correct.

I liked to discuss with Sile about it. But other member challenged what I wrote, he probably didn't know that Kosovo was Serbian land in Middle age and I gave hard proofs. But it took several pages our discussion.
...

Now my answers to your questions.

1) I never wrote that Serbs were before Thracians. I would like see where I wrote about something that someone can have this conclusion. My messages were to say that Albanians nothing to do with Pelasgians (no one proof about it) in discussions with members of forum in this thread. And of course I don't think Serbs are oldest in Europe.

2) I'm a supporter of theory that Albanians originate from Eastern Anatoila/Caucasus (not Iran). It is legitimate theory in science, I think French scholars first supposed about it. You can see in this forum several members from different countries think so. According some scientists Proto Albanian has similarity with Armenian and Iranian languages, and it developed between speakers of these languages (area Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and near). Today's Albanian has similarities with Armenian, North Iranian, even Caucasus languages which are no IE, (but this can be logical, there is scientific theory that IE languages created as mix between Eurasian languages and Caucasus languages). This is very interesting field of researching in different disciplines (genetic, linguistical, historical, etc.). I give evidence about it in different threads.

There are Albanians who claim that they are descendants of creators ancient cultures in Near East (even descendants of Ancient Egyptians, too). Theoretically it can be possible that E-V13 carriers sometimes had developed cultures in Near East, but South Asian tribes pushed toward north.

Everyone can see that Ancient Armenians had R1b ht35 and E-V13 haplogrous. R1b ht35 carriers are creators of Proto Armenian. I think that R1b ht35 carriers are creators of Proto Albanian, too. It can be possible that some words of E-V13 carriers who mixed with R1b ht35 carriers, survived in Albanian. And, because they lived in near with speakers of forerunners of Iranian (and speakers of non IE Caucasus languages), words of these languages came in Proto Albanian.

In different classifications of IE authors put Albanian together with Armenian and Iranian, for example:

image005.png


But speakers of Proto Albanian left their territory and probably they reached areas of present day Romania, Moldavia, Southern Western Ukraine. In these areas Albanian became close with Dacian, and later Romanian.

It is interesting, Dienekes in his respectable blog, wrote that it is possible J2 haplogroup came very late in Albanian substratum. It is possible when Albanians reached areas of present day Albania, that they assimilated Greek colonies in the Adriatic sea.

3) This your question is right in center, excellent.

Because, question is excellent but it is not a problem. I explained more times, I'm not nationalist, I am moderate Tito's fan (of course I'm noncommunist). I don't agree with Tito's politics in a lot of things. For example, Tito acted against Greece and he supported aspirants of Greater Macedonia what is nonsense. Inhabitans of today's Former republics of Macedonia have haplogroups similar as Serbs. Greater Macedonia as Macedonian communists and nationalists thought is died idea, and it is waste a time and energy for nothing.

But Tito had another idea which was not bad, although not withstood a test of time. Tito claimed brotherhood and unity Yugoslav people. It is much better than senseless hatred. Unfortunately across history religion divided Yugoslav people. They speak same language, they have same/similar haplogrops but they divided by religion.

We now come to key problem which Albanians here in forum or don't understand or try to pass over. I will give a example:

250px-Dupr%C3%A9_-_Ali_Pasha.jpg


This is Ali Pasha of Tepelana. He is Albanian. He lived 1740-1822. He was appointed pasha, ruler of Sanjak of Ioanina. I will say here only that his troops completely destroyed Moscopole, center of Aromanians (Tsintsars). Unfortunatelly, Aromanias mostly had to flee from region, and they went to Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria etc. It is possible Aromanians today would have their state if Ali Pasha did not destroy their region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

Historians have attributed the decline of the city to a series of raids by Muslim Albanian bandits,[8] that almost destroyed the town in 1769 following the participation of the residents in the preparations for the Orlov Revolt in 1770,[9] and culminated with the abandoning and destruction of Moscopole in 1788.[10][11] Moscopole, once a prosperous city, was reduced to a small village by Ali Pasha.

...
Turks in Balkans found allies in people who converted to Islam. Very often problems for Balkan inhabitants (Christians, Atheists etc.) didn't make Turks, but their Balkan Muslim allies. Balkan Christians and Atheists have for centuries suffered greatly. Freedom of the Ottomans and their Balkan Muslim allies in 19 and in start of 20 century was a great epopoeja for a strugling Balkan nations.

But what we see today.

Is Turkey attempting to resurrect the Ottoman Empire


http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/22243

Territories of the Balkans belong to Turkey

http://www.blazingcatfur.ca/2013/12...-territories-of-the-balkans-belong-to-turkey/

Kosovo Is Turkey

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/10/erdogan-kosovo-turkey.html

Several days ago Turks and Albanians in Kosovo organized ceremony about Turkish conquest of Balkans and win of Turkish army in the Kosovo battle.

In the picture are Turkish and Albanian officials in front of Tomb of sultan Murat

aa_picture_20150615_5632550_high.jpg



...
Yetos, it is not problem that different peoples in the Balkans learn different histories. But if of that arises a tendency to return what was once (Muslim rule of the Balkans, Ottoman empire etc.) problem becomes much bigger. Now at the time of ISIS and construction of Oropba, even much more bigger.

...

But it is not the thread, and I will not speak about it. I will repeat again, we here waste energy and time, because Albanians nothing to do with Pelasgians how setter of thread tried to suggest in introduction.

...
Yetos, I hope I answered your questions. If I missed something, tell me, and I will respond.
 
ok are you tired?
Pretty tired actually, thanks for asking how about you?

what are you trying to prove?
nothing much, just sourcing studies

that Albanianas were before Serbians?
Read the genetic studies i have sourced and you will understand better

the αυτοχθονες crap of Rama?
Have you done your dna?....we could be brothers LOL

tell me
1) were Albanians before Triballi τριβαλλοι?
It said Tribali is just a tribe from hundreds and thousands of other tribes around the area, I read that Serbs might be Tribali, well first of all you cannot make up a large population from only one tribe and second whatever i have read Serbs are not Thracians (maybe 5% as everyone is mixed) but rather.... Serbinum was recorded from the Sarmatian (5th century BC) tribe Serboi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Thrace_and_Dacia

2) is the Albanian Vallavan pasha the father of modern Albanians?
I have no idea what are you talking about

3) in which group Albanian language belong? in South European or in North European?
You have a lots of scientific studies here to read, hope you have read all of them.

4) Hunjades what nationality he was? Avar or Cuman/Kuman?
I have no idea what are you talking about
 
And we know who controlled former Yugoslavia, it was all Serbia and with its propaganda

You are completely wrong. You don't know about socialist Yugoslavia. It was state of six republics. Serbs didn't have hegemony, president was not Serb, and all institutions were in favor of idea brotherhood and unity of Yugoslav nations. Serbian nationalists say that Yugoslavia was a dungeon of Serbian people. Yes, and Croatian nationalists didn't love SFR Yugoslavia, and other. But Yugoslav communists fought with nationalistic aspirations with a lot of success.

Bosnian scientists who translated Turkish defter of 1455 were scientists. About what pressures you speak. All data are in Turkey in Istanbul. Everyone who knows medieval Turkish can translate it. I read this document. Almost all names and surnames in this defter are Serbian. Turks know it, nobody is denied findings of Bosnian scientists. According this Turkish defter in Kosovo lived Serbs, 95.88% names are Serbian and 0.26% names are Albanian, and what. Albanian scientists know for defter, they read it.

It was 1455, situation changed after that. Serbs were allies with European Christian nations, Austrians, Hungarians and Balkan Christians. Turks and their Balkan Muslim allies terrorized Non-Muslim inhabitants, and Non-Muslims were fleeing. Do you know where in Europe Serbs settled because they had to have fled Kosovo since the Turkish terror. Not only Serbs, all Christians and Atheists suffered due Ottoman terror, Greeks, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Romanians etc. Fortunately, Christian people in the Balkans were free from Ottoman empire in 19th and in start of 20th century.
 
guys plz stop
 
3000 years BC there was a culture in west Balkans what we call today Vučedol
Vucedol_culture_map.png


By modern standars, people today living in area covered by that culture share high genetic similarity

http://i.imgur.com/BHlVkQR.png



Its obvious Albanians are not descendant from those popular illirians mentioned by Roman sources with their illyrian wars, because all of them came from modern Croatia and BiH.
There is genetic continuity of west balkans, from 3000 BC, and of such people romans called Illiryans even today, and Albanians are not part of it.

Those are facts

Majority of serbs are in fact of what greeks called thracian and dacian ancestry, or specifically tribalians, and share similarity with bulgarians and romanians.

Modern serbs, croats and bulgarians, as in balkan people are descendants of trako-illirians, and before that form cultures of Vučedol and Vinča.
I would even dare to say that antic phrase tracko-ilirian is basically modern serbo-croatian.


Another funny fact that for sure will be interesting, as that Iliran tribes in western balkans as per Roman description of their territory, even today have provincial specific cultures customs and mentality in same borders as in antic times.
Croatians+ Bosnians are basically conglomerate of tribes in a sense even today, that more or less correspond to locality of major ilirian tribes as per Roman historians
 
3000 years BC there was a culture in west Balkans what we call today Vučedol
Vucedol_culture_map.png


By modern standars, people today living in area covered by that culture share high genetic similarity

http://i.imgur.com/BHlVkQR.png



Its obvious Albanians are not descendant from those popular illirians mentioned by Roman sources with their illyrian wars, because all of them came from modern Croatia and BiH.
There is genetic continuity of west balkans, from 3000 BC, and of such people romans called Illiryans even today, and Albanians are not part of it.

Those are facts

Majority of serbs are in fact of what greeks called thracian and dacian ancestry, or specifically tribalians, and share similarity with bulgarians and romanians.

Modern serbs, croats and bulgarians, as in balkan people are descendants of trako-illirians, and before that form cultures of Vučedol and Vinča.
I would even dare to say that antic phrase tracko-ilirian is basically modern serbo-croatian.


Another funny fact that for sure will be interesting, as that Iliran tribes in western balkans as per Roman description of their territory, even today have provincial specific cultures customs and mentality in same borders as in antic times.
Croatians+ Bosnians are basically conglomerate of tribes in a sense even today, that more or less correspond to locality of major ilirian tribes as per Roman historians
We can say some similarities,The Dinaric region of ex-Yugoslavia comprises some of the most impenetrable country anywhere in Europe.Its inhabitants never submited to central authority,as local loyalties prevail and the fragmented terrain hinders contact even between adjacent communities.By the same token,resistance to the would be conqueror has always determined:the struggles of Pannonian Illyrians against the Romans and those of Montenegrins against the Turks were emulated by Yugoslavs during world war two :grin:
 
The innocent/extremely-developed culture of Cucuteni-TryPolsce(I guess they had haplos) peacefully...


"Huns, Slavs and Antes, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/proc/shp/shp21.htm

...expanded southwards after launching Yersiniaization.



The few remainig...


"For in each of these incursions, I should say, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia."



... pale/ruthless/raw/E-V13-lucky Vlachs were kidnapped for further research.



They were,initially, urbanized/decent people,but the Trypillian jealousy made its place.


Latin "monumentum",Romanian "mormant"(not "Tumulus",but a hi-tech "grave" with a fancy slab).

Latin "pavimentum",Romanian "pamant"("ground","earth",which for the Early Romanians was kinda stony,so the Trypillians had invited them to go to the(ir)country,just to escape...the abstractization).



P.S.

Just for two(non-European guys):

"I'm not trying to cause a big s-s-sensation
Just escaped from abstractization"
 
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The Vlachs were sheepherders,mountanious tribes,like the Albanians, would rather suppose them some Dacian origin.
 

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