Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

Aberdeen · Mar 8, 2014

LeBrok said:
One thing to consider would be that without US Canada would have been either part of Japan Empire or part of Soviet Union. It is safe to say that without them we wouldn't be able to cherish our freedoms.

Wrong. We once had to fight off the damned Americans in order to keep our freedoms. Have you ever heard of the War of 1812?

matbir · Mar 8, 2014

Ukraine is in crisis and no one is willing to implement the Budapest Memorandum:
"
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments."

It looks like GB, USA and RF do not care about the treaty they singled in 1994.

LeBrok · Mar 8, 2014

Aberdeen said:
Wrong. We once had to fight off the damned Americans in order to keep our freedoms. Have you ever heard of the War of 1812?

The weekend war? It was 200 years ago with US versus British. Well, one could say that it was war between British themselves. The independent British and British British, and nobody really conquered anyone. There was also "Canadian" invasion of Quebec, our neighbor back then, followed by long occupation. And really it was British occupation of French territory.
It wasn't up to almost 20 century when Canada developed own character and proper country construct. We still should work on full independence from British. It is a shame it is not finalized. How proud Canadian can say "God save the queen", the British queen?

And you don't want to say Canada could resist Soviet Union or Japan without US?

Aberdeen · Mar 8, 2014

LeBrok said:
The weekend war? It was 200 years ago with US versus British. Well, one could say that it was war between British themselves. The independent British and British British, and nobody really conquered anyone. There was also "Canadian" invasion of Quebec, our neighbor back then, followed by long occupation. And really it was British occupation of French territory.
It wasn't up to almost 20 century when Canada developed own character and proper country construct. We still should work on full independence from British. It is a shame it is not finalized. How proud Canadian can say "God save the queen", the British queen?

And you don't want to say Canada could resist Soviet Union or Japan without US?

Actually, the War of 1812 to 1814 was a two year war that happened while Britain was preoccupied with fighting Napoleon, so most of the heavy lifting was done by provincial militias and Native warriors. It was that war that first created a sense of Canada as a nation among the colonies of what was then British North America. And Canada made a huge contribution in both world wars in the 20th century, as well as providing a refuge for displaced persons, including Poles, after WWII.

I don't think any country is necessarily safe without alliances, but I do think that countries that create empires, such as the U.S., Russia and formerly Britain, create a lot of problems for themselves and others. For example, it's arguable that this modern wave of islamist extremism was largely created by Britain and the U.S. through their adventures in Arabia and Iran. However, what the Russians are doing in Crimea probably won't create too many long term problems for them, since they're doing it in their own back yard and a slim majority of the Crimean population is actually Russian speaking. However, it must really suck to be a Tatar or Ukrainian in Crimea right now. If I was living in Crimea and wasn't a Russian speaker, I'd seriously consider moving.

oriental · Mar 8, 2014

A lot of Poles got into Canada during the time of the Polish Solidarity Movement, Lech Walenza and Polish Pope. Gobarchev was the Head of Soviet Union then.

The Charge of the Light Brigade was in Crimea and there was a film with Errol Flynn and David Niven.

Anton Bear's den · Mar 8, 2014

LeBrok said:
Thanks to people like you, Russia is dying slowly every day.

Hahaha

dreams of seventy years russophobe!

last time I checked it was Canada who was actually dying together with her "west"

http://www.med.uottawa.ca/sim/data/Birth_Rates_e.htm
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/canadas-birthrate-falls-for-3rd-year-in-a-row-to-161

while Russia is growing

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/02/07/russia-just-recorded-its-first-natural-population-growth-since-the-collapse-of-the-soviet-union/

Nothing surprising really, gay & lesbian cultures don't reproduce. No one yet cheated Mother Nature

LeBrok said:
You'll see riots (not only Pussy Riots) and Russian tanks in Moscow streets in few years. Mark my words.

I rather will see how the elephant became utterly bankrupt. Clock is ticking, you know: "Tik-Tok...Tik Tok...Tik-Tok..."

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

LeBrok said:
The saddest thing will be that you and others will still think Putin is your salvation.

Who cares about Putin? Russian Federation is sovereign democracy and will elect other president when term of current president finished. But I predict that you will call him a "dictator" too, because he will defend the national interests of the Russian Federation. Nothing to be done, because you are used to dealing only with puppets. Any other really independent state you perceive as the enemy.

LeBrok said:
and all bad came from western agitators.

No, I don't like when you start to teach us and impose your values. Some of them sick which we don't want to copy here, but not everything. Bad that "west" demanding to copy absolutely everything.

I myself work in French company & my boss is French, do you really believe that I think "all bad came from western agitators"???

Ike · Mar 9, 2014

matbir said:
Ukraine is in crisis and no one is willing to implement the Budapest Memorandum: ...

It looks like GB, USA and RF do not care about the treaty they singled in 1994.

They never do. If it was by the book, SFR Yugoslavia still exists. Almost every single move done by all sides, foreign or internal, was not in accordance with international law and agreements.

LeBrok · Mar 9, 2014

Anton said:
Hahaha

dreams of seventy years russophobe! "

I just don't like current Russian government and mind set. I"m not sure if you noticed that Russia is more than that. I have Russian friends in Canada and like many things and even some admire about Russia.
I guess if I don't like Putin and your mind set I must be a russophobe. If only the wrold would be so black and white.

while Russia is growing

It is growing slower than China and India, not mentioning the rest. China's economy is already 3 times bigger than Russian. You need to join EU to counterbalance fast growing Asia. Otherwise they will eat you alive. Your salvation is only with EU. 17 billion economy compared to 2.5 billion Russian.

Nothing surprising really, gay & lesbian cultures don't reproduce. No one yet cheated Mother Nature

So you admit it is a genetic issue, not cultural?

I rather will see how the elephant became utterly bankrupt. Clock is ticking, you know: "Tik-Tok...Tik Tok...Tik-Tok..."

Don't kid yourself, I predict tanks in Moscow happening first.

Who cares about Putin? Russian Federation is sovereign democracy and will elect other president when term of current president finished.

Putin is personalization of most Russians mindset. If Russian mindset won't change there will be next Putin, or worse.

But I predict that you will call him a "dictator" too, because he will defend the national interests of the Russian Federation. Nothing to be done, because you are used to dealing only with puppets. Any other really independent state you perceive as the enemy.

We call him dictator because Russians want dictator to rule them. This is what they are used to from hundreds of years. Tzar, Secretary, Putin, vsio ravno (all same).

No, I don't like when you start to teach us and impose your values. Some of them sick which we don't want to copy here, but not everything. Bad that "west" demanding to copy absolutely everything.

Lead by example. When you show that your country is strong, rich, and people prosperous you will prove to the world and me that your ways are good, then I would pay attention to your values. If you struggle to survive and world don't care for you, and you behave like a bully to get an attention, and nobody wants to copy your economic and political system then we can honestly say that your values are wrong, or at least not as good as others. Show us your good and beneficial for all actions then we will follow you, otherwise you can tell your stories to the end of the world and nobody is going to believe you.

I myself work in French company & my boss is French, do you really believe that I think "all bad came from western agitators"???

Wow, you sold your soul! You are working for western agitators and their governments! I'm calling Putin tomorrow. :grin:

Coolboygcp · Mar 10, 2014

Aberdeen said:
If you don't like my posts, don't reply to them. But here's a clue - if a country has imperialist ambitions and over one million troops under arms, it's a danger to its neighbours, even if some of those troops are poorly trained conscripts.

When someone makes discriminatory and incorrect statements, as you do, I feel the obligation to reply.

I agree Russia has imperialistic ambitions. However Russia does not have "over one million troops under arms"; Russia has approximately 766,055 active soldiers as of 2013. That is not over one million, to my understanding of numbers and mathematics.

Reference for this fact:

http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/766055/

Yes, it's a danger to it's neighbours, you act as if it is as fearsome, as powerful, and as strong as NATO, The US, or Europe, which it isn't.

Also, why do you have this hatred toward Americans and the French? If it wasn't for the Americans, as LeBrok said, Canada would be Soviet or Japanese by now without the Americans and you would not have many freedoms. If it wasn't for America, Canada's economy would collapse; as most of Canada's exports go to The US, and most imports come from The US.

Why don't you like America, and Americans? We are in the same continent, we speak the same language (though different dialects, but I speak British English, personally. Except for the Francophones in Canada.), we are both part of NATO, we both are former parts of The British Empire, we have similar accents, etc. If you go abroad, people will not be able to tell if you are Canadian, and will probably think you are American; due to the similar accents, until you tell them you Canadian.

Did you date an American girl, and she dumped you? Did you loan an American money, and they never gave it back? Did you get in a fight with an American, and they won? What have Americans or America done t you personally? Why do you hold this hatred of it?

I do not agree with what my government does, I am not very patriotic, but I do not have control over what they do, and I consider myself more European than American. However, to condemn a whole nation, and a whole people, including myself; is not right.

America has done a lot for your country, and I really like Canada, and Canadians, but I do not know why you are like this? Are you even from Canada? Or are you just a *****?

Coolboygcp · Mar 10, 2014

LeBrok said:
One thing to consider would be that without US Canada would have been either part of Japan Empire or part of Soviet Union. It is safe to say that without them we wouldn't be able to cherish our freedoms.

Thank you LeBrok, you're right.

Anton Bear's den · Mar 10, 2014

LeBrok said:
It is growing slower than China and India, not mentioning the rest. China's economy is already 3 times bigger than Russian. You need to join EU to counterbalance fast growing Asia. Otherwise they will eat you alive. Your salvation is only with EU. 17 billion economy compared to 2.5 billion Russian.

As one wiseman said once: "Really Great Powers do not join unions, they create them". Last time I checked my country was in size of Canada & US combined, with the entire periodic table of resources in it, serious army & some really smart people inside. RF lacking population though, modern pole of power requires around 300 million people while RF have only 140-150 mln. But I think Eurasian Union will compensate it a little bit. The point about money is not very convincing, since there is still the shadow economy which is ignored by these statistics. Plus the money & volume of economy is a matter of time, in 1998 RF had around 900 billions in US dollars GDP calculated in PPP, today 2500-3400 billions. Growth potential is more important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

I don't see threat from Asia since RF have good relations with China, tolerable with Japan and good with South Korea. Asia today remind Europe before WWI, countries such as China, Taiwan, India, Indonesia, Japan, South Korea... rapidly increasing their armaments. There will be a big war probably and they will weaken themselves for a long time.

I would want to join Europe which built on ancient European roots like Roman law, Christian values, Greek philosophy and our common values that were taken, according to the national character. Italians have added their cheerfulness, French - aesthetics, the British - puritanism and simplicity, the Germans - diligence, and Russian - depth understanding of existence.

Modern European Union is not about it, it's something alien. I see strong Americanisation in it & hate toward european culture. It is not surprising because it was created with the purpose of preventing war under American political & cultural domination. One my viking friend from Noreg simply hate that union I understand him.

Anyway, the fate of Romania and Bulgaria does not very attractive. Poor countries with captured by powerful German economy internal markets + "5th sort europeans" status. No, thanks, I would better go my own way

. Look at Switzerland and Norway - really the smart ones to respect!

EU should better accept Turkey, guys already 50 years waiting in the waiting room

LeBrok said:
So you admit it is a genetic issue, not cultural?

It's both, 1% genetic & other 99% cultural.
I know that majority of western countries like Germany is very liberal and have very low birthrates combined with very high social provision for young mothers & families (such as maternity capital). RF from other side don't have such high social support and not that much liberal. Any increase of social support here gives good results in birthrates unlike Germany. So ultra-liberalism make countries insensitive to material promotion of fertility. I am don't want to repeat the fate of dinosaurs or to be colonised like American natives through immigration & multiculturalism ideology.
No hate towards gays at all, if western countries will prove that ultra-liberal values compatible with high fertility rates among white population then I will become biggest LGBT supporter ever

LeBrok said:
Wow, you sold your soul! You are working for western agitators and their governments! I'm calling Putin tomorrow. :grin:

Putin's daughters probably enjoying in young burghers company themselves

Aberdeen · Mar 10, 2014

Coolboygcp said:
When someone makes discriminatory and incorrect statements, as you do, I feel the obligation to reply.

I agree Russia has imperialistic ambitions. However Russia does not have "over one million troops under arms"; Russia has approximately 766,055 active soldiers as of 2013. That is not over one million, to my understanding of numbers and mathematics.

Reference for this fact:

http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/766055/

Yes, it's a danger to it's neighbours, you act as if it is as fearsome, as powerful, and as strong as NATO, The US, or Europe, which it isn't.

Also, why do you have this hatred toward Americans and the French? If it wasn't for the Americans, as LeBrok said, Canada would be Soviet or Japanese by now without the Americans and you would not have many freedoms. If it wasn't for America, Canada's economy would collapse; as most of Canada's exports go to The US, and most imports come from The US.

Why don't you like America, and Americans? We are in the same continent, we speak the same language (though different dialects, but I speak British English, personally. Except for the Francophones in Canada.), we are both part of NATO, we both are former parts of The British Empire, we have similar accents, etc. If you go abroad, people will not be able to tell if you are Canadian, and will probably think you are American; due to the similar accents, until you tell them you Canadian.

Did you date an American girl, and she dumped you? Did you loan an American money, and they never gave it back? Did you get in a fight with an American, and they won? What have Americans or America done t you personally? Why do you hold this hatred of it?

I do not agree with what my government does, I am not very patriotic, but I do not have control over what they do, and I consider myself more European than American. However, to condemn a whole nation, and a whole people, including myself; is not right.

America has done a lot for your country, and I really like Canada, and Canadians, but I do not know why you are like this? Are you even from Canada? Or are you just a *****?

Go away, you silly little boy. I don't come here to argue with ill-informed ******. If you're feeling cranky because you didn't have a nap and you want to throw a tanty, do it somewhere else.

Coolboygcp · Mar 11, 2014

Aberdeen said:
Go away, you silly little boy. I don't come here to argue with ill-informed ******. If you're feeling cranky because you didn't have a nap and you want to throw a tanty, do it somewhere else.

Oh how adult of you! You are so mature! You are old enough to act better than that.

I am not the "ill-informed one. I cite facts, I always have a reference for my posts featuring statistics. I don't post fictitious, discriminatory, racist comments. Also, I am not a little boy.

Instead of posting a reply that is not snarky, you instead have chosen to launch a personal attack on me; instead of assessing the fictitious, ignorant, discriminatory, and racist posts you have made.

You are acting like a "cranky" old man. What the hell is your problem? Why are you always so pissy? Are you going through andropause?

Also, what do you mean by "tanty", that is not an actual word. I looked on Urban Dictionary, and found the following meanings, as I am nit sure what tense you are referring to. Here it is below:

Urban Dictionary said:
1-
A noun used by children/young adults to refer to a(usually) non related mature woman that one is socially close to. This word is part of Trinidad and Tobago's vocabulary in the Casual register. Alternate spelling "tantie"
"I meet tanty Rosie by de shop"

2-
Effeminate homosexual.
look how tanty he is - he's like a girl!

3-
The term used to describe a garment for your tits. Essentially, a pair of 'panties' for your tits. Tits + Panties = Tanties.
I was shopping online today, and I bought myself a new kickass pair of tanties!

4-
Shortened version of tantrum.
To crack the shits and throw a tanty.

If you are referring to meaning #1 or #2, I would never throw a human being. If you are referring to meaning #3, I do not own a pair of "Tanties", so I couldn't throw one, If you are referring to meaning #4, I am not throwing a "tantrum". The word is tantrum, it is not a very long word. Your country has The Queen, and yet, you do not even speak "The Queen's English"? In addition, I am not throwing a tantrum, I am not two years old.

Why do you have to be so mean? So nasty? Before this whole argument even escalated, you were acting like an ******* to me. And you act like that to practically everyone else on this forum. Why? What's the reason? Also, you never answered my question, what have Americans done to you? Why do you dislike America and Americans?

Aberdeen · Mar 11, 2014

Give it a rest, Schoolboygcp. Nobody is impressed with your nonsense and you're hijacking the thread with your childishness. This thread is about the situation in Crimea, which is a rather serious matter, and this is not a place for schoolboys to beg for attention.

I'll just ignore you in future.

Coolboygcp · Mar 11, 2014

Aberdeen said:
Give it a rest, Schoolboygcp. Nobody is impressed with your nonsense and you're hijacking the thread with your childishness. This thread is about the situation in Crimea, which is a rather serious matter, and this is not a place for schoolboys to beg for attention.

I'll just ignore you in future.

Oh "Schoolboygcp", how mature, how witty.

My nonsense? My childishness? Look in the mirror. You were the one who started this whole thing. Can't you contribute anything valuable to a thread? You haven't yet. It seems all you do is :flame:

And I don't have time to engage with a flamer.

Coolboygcp · Mar 12, 2014

Ike said:
That is what Americans think. That is why they are advancing towards Russia. And that is why we're all in problem.

No, what I said were the facts. I can provide even more references if you want.

We all know that you aren't biased towards Russia.

Also, why do you as if Yugoslavia is still in existence? It isn't, it is dead. Long dead. It will never come back. Why do you want Yugoslavia to be re-established? It was a horrible place. Also, were you even alive when it was in existence?

Your country, Serbia, is probably going to join the EU in the coming years. How do you feel about that? :grin:

Goga · Mar 12, 2014

I'm asking myself if amputated Ukraine without Crimea (and maybe later even without the Russian eastern parts) is still important for the US. The US tried to reduce Russian influence around the Black Sea and therefor in The Mediterranean Sea areas, like Syria and Israel. Now, Crimea became Russia again, Russians have even more influence in that area. The West failed to reduce the influence of Russia and used Ukraine like prostitutes. Now Ukraine has Crimea no more, does the US and European Union need such a poor country, while it will not change any dominance of Russia in the Caucasus, Middle East and Central Asia! What a huge FAIL!

Aberdeen · Mar 12, 2014

Goga said:
I'm asking myself if amputated Ukraine without Crimea (and maybe later even without the Russian eastern parts) is still important for the US. The US tried to reduce Russian influence around the Black Sea and therefor in The Mediterranean Sea areas, like Syria and Israel. Now, Crimea became Russia again, Russians have even more influence in that area. The West failed to reduce the influence of Russia and used Ukraine like prostitutes. Now Ukraine has Crimea no more, does the US and European Union need such a poor country, while it will not change any dominance of Russia in the Caucasus, Middle East and Central Asia! What a huge FAIL!

Look at a map. Kiev is only about 750 kilometres from Moscow. Even if the U.S. and NATO aren't keen to get the Ukraine into NATO in order to hold military exercises that close to Moscow, the Russians probably believe that they are.

martiko · Mar 12, 2014

Aberdeen said:
Look at a map. Kiev is only about 750 kilometres from Moscow. Even if the U.S. and NATO aren't keen to get the Ukraine into NATO in order to hold military exercises that close to Moscow, the Russians probably believe that they are.

and St. Petersburg, Vladivostok, Nizhny Novgorod, Novocibirsk ....... are farthest from Kiev but Paris and Berlin are closer.

Ike · Mar 12, 2014

Coolboygcp said:
No, what I said were the facts. I can provide even more references if you want.

Whatever.

We all know that you aren't biased towards Russia.

Exactly. I see you know some history, and you known that Yugoslavia was the brink of the war with Soviets.

Also, why do you as if Yugoslavia is still in existence? It isn't, it is dead. Long dead. It isn't, it is dead. Long dead. It will never come back. Why do you want Yugoslavia to be re-established? It was a horrible place. Also, were you even alive when it was in existence?

Because formally it is still in existence. It is just being occupied and divided just like during WW2.
Whether it was a horrible place or not, is not up to you to say, and is of no importance. It is not a reason to act lawlessly and neglect it's existence.

Your country, Serbia, is probably going to join the EU in the coming years. How do you feel about that? :grin:

Hm... that's bad for EU. Balkan people in EU means EU is going down big time.

Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

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