OFFTOPIC from "Are R1a and R1b really Indo-Europeans ?"

Simple. Turkic homeland was far away in far East Asia, check the maps of Turkic homeland, and they started growing in power and spreading only after year 0, in AD period. By that time IE where already in Europe for 2 thousand years. We are talking about big distances in space and time. By the same token, you can start looking for Chinese words in IE vocabulary.
There is no chance that Turks could influence IE language, till they got close during times of Ottoman empire. And they only influenced Balkans.

Also, I don't think there is any Sumerian influence over Slavic, Germanic or even Celtic IE spectrum. On other hand you will find Sumerian influence on Greek, or protogreek, because of close distance and contacts about 4,000 years ago.

To prove your point find same Sumerian words, not only in Greek or even Balkans, but also in other IE branches. If they lived in Anatolia close to Sumerians, which was powerful and very influential, they must have learned many, and I mean many, Sumerian words. Where are these words?!

Yetos said:

the translation of O' gives Γολιαθ and he was a giant
goliam of south Slavic also means big gigantic
so it is obvious the same sound and meaning,
it can be explained by using Summerian and Hattian
Gal + (h)ath

remember in Greek the word for human is Ανθρωπος ath+ ro (ru) +-pos
etruscan if Hatian language is also ath+ru+can

so goliath is Gal+(h)ath = big man = giant
no Gandalf no Golum

Le Brok NO, try again the word Golyam in Cyrillic голям, it does not mean naked
there is your answer
wielki голям are more close among them than Μεγας Magnus Big Grande madh mets
(except if is relative to Turkish Soyltan Soylu Ulu = noble?)


golyam and wielky could be from Thracian to Slavic?

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Yetos, stop this. What you're doing has nothing to do with linguistics. You cherrypick words from languages from quite different parts of the world, from different time slices, and from these you make assumptions which have no basis what so ever. You might as well try to convince us that Albanian is a Native American language, such a claim wouldn't be any more outlandish. Worse yet, you randomly break apart words even if these do not represent compounds. I've called this 'magic word dismantling' before, and you're not the first to do this. It has nothing to do with linguistic methodology, it's just pseudoscience. The worst part is that you're just confusing other board members, and you regularly jump into topics and start with these wild comparisons that are really completely out of context. For their well-being, I must ask you to stop this.

And frankly, consider yourself hereby officially warned.

nordicwarrior said:

Please be aware that I know almost nothing about ancient languages, so I may sound like a bull in a China shop here. But what about these terms that seem to have similiar roots...

1. Baltic and Balkans-- I know that the Baltic was originally Mare Suebian (named after the Suebi tribe)
2. Goliath and Goy--the term used by Jews/and or Yiddish speakers to denote non-Jews

Is there something to these?

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The word "Balkans" is of Turkic origin. There's also a "Balkan" mountains in Turkmenistan.

The word "Baltic" derives from the Baltic word for "white" (Latvian "balts", Lithuanian "baltas") and has cognates in other branches of Indo-European (all from a common root *bhel-), including:

- Albanian "ballë" (forehead)
- Celtic (the Irish festival name 'Beltaine', deity names "Belisama" and "Belenos")
- Greek "phalakos" (bald)
- English "bale" (antiquated word for 'fire')
- Slavic (Polish "biały", which means 'white' just like in Latvian/Lithuanian, also for instance found in the town name "Bialystok").

But, I might explain here how things work: the basic idea of the comparative method in linguistics is this (I'm trying to explain this as simple as possible):

- a sound X in language A corresponds regularly to sound Y in language B.

- when a change in a language happens, it affects ALL words in the vocabulary of a language, with no exceptions.

- if there are exceptions, these are governed by their own set of rules (for example, a change happens only at the beginning of a word, etc.)

- languages have no memory of changes that happened to them in the past. That is, if you have the sound A and B changed to sound C and then later changed into a sound D, the language will not distinguish wether sound C arose from A or B.



*Note that "ed" has it's meaning changed to "distance" or "interval", which makes sense considering that in English the length unit "foot" exists, which if you think about it has a similar meaning. What you can see is that English (a Germanic language) *f- corresponds regularly to Latin *p- and to a missing letter in Old Irish. If we now compare the word for 'father' in other Indo-European languages (Armenian "hayr", Greek "pateras", Hindi "pita", Persian "pedar"), we find that *p is the most common and most probably the original condition, which is preserved in most branches of the Indo-European languages, but shifted to *f in the Germanic languages, shifted to *h in Armenian, and disappearing in the Celtic languages.

And that's, in a nutshell, how it works.

Yetos said:

4 words 1 meaning
the original Greek is ανθος (flower)
but in modern Greek we see the word λουλουδiα (mostly plural) especially in thracian traditional sonds,
in West Europe again mostly in plural we see Lillies and simmilar
in Turkic we see the Lale - lalle as flower,
in Summerian is Liligi (clear plural)
so the word is what?
IE and enter Summerian and Turkic?
Turkic and enter Summerian and IE?

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The word origin is the Albanian noun: lule=flower
The real root of the word is the syllable lu which carries a primitive meaning of movement (growing, blooming):
b-loo-m=lu-lëzoj

Taranis said:

- languages have no memory of changes that happened to them in the past. That is, if you have the sound A and B changed to sound C and then later changed into a sound D, the language will not distinguish wether sound C arose from A or B.

English	Old Irish	Latin
father	athair	pater

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I disagree with this. This word differs from language to language, but what do they have in common is the cluster at(ad):
πατέρας(new greek)
father(eng)
отец(Russian)
padre(ital)
vater(german)
vader(dutch)
pater(mycenian)
padre(Spanish)

There is only one language which has this unchanged and this is Albanian:
at-ë=father
Apparently this is the original word for every old Europian, and that's the result of an onomatopeic transformation:
ta-ta-ta
which is the a child babble.

Zeus10 said:

The word origin is the Albanian noun: lule=flower
The real root of the word is the syllable lu which carries a primitive meaning of movement (growing, blooming):
b-loo-m=lu-lëzoj

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Zeus10 said:

I dissagre with this. This word differs from language to language, but what do they have in common is the cluster at(ad):
πατέρας(new greek)
father(eng)
отец(Russian)
padre(ital)
vater(german)
vader(dutch)
pater(mycenian)
padre(Spanish)

There is only one language which has this unchanged and this is Albanian:
at-ë=father
Apparently this is the original word for every old Europian, and that's the result of an onomatopeic transformation:
ta-ta-ta
which is the a child babble.

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So after I have scolded one gentleman who practices magic word dismantlement, the next one steps in? It must be Friday...

Taranis said:

So after I have scolded one gentleman who practices magic word dismantlement, the next one steps in? It must be Friday...

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Must be a conspiracy against you.

Zeus10 said:

I dissagre with this. This word differs from language to language, but what do they have in common is the cluster at(ad):
πατέρας(new greek)
father(eng)
отец(Russian)
padre(ital)
vater(german)
vader(dutch)
pater(mycenian)
padre(Spanish)

There is only one language which has this unchanged and this is Albanian:
at-ë=father
Apparently this is the original word for every old Europian, and that's the result of an onomatopeic transformation:
ta-ta-ta
which is the a child babble.

Click to expand...

This actually makes you and Taranis right. The beggining of english father or spanish padre started with tata in proto IE, or maybe papa. You mentioned how it started, and Taranis showed later evolution through IE branches. You're both right.

The only mistake you're making is that you are sort of implying that the word started indepedently in all the IE branches. If you're right, then tell us what word for father was used in proto IE, did they have one? If it was also tata, then why did they need to invent it interdependently again?

Actually to make is interesting, there is one universal word on this planet. The first and easiest word to say for kids, mama. There are only handful exceptions.

The rest of simple (child's) sounds are used differently around the globe, even among IEs.
tata is more universal among slavs. Around the globe you find also papa, baba, dada in use as well to describe father.

To help your onomatopeic transformation cause, please match these for different languages, not mentioning all languages. You'll see that they are not universal as mama.

tata - father
baba - grandmother
dada - grandfather

LeBrok said:

To prove your point find same Sumerian words, not only in Greek or even Balkans, but also in other IE branches. If they lived in Anatolia close to Sumerians, which was powerful and very influential, they must have learned many, and I mean many, Sumerian words. Where are these words?!

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To be clear, I'm not implying that IE, R1bs, couldn't enter Europe through Anatolia. They most likely did, at least some of them. What I'm saying is that they didn't stay in Anatolia for a long time, that Anatolia is not their origin, their homeland.

Zeus10 said:

tata & dada
also
papa & baba

must be count as one, because they are version of the same word involving voiceless and voiced pairs of consonants , such as [p b], [td], [k ɡ], [q ɢ]

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Good point. So how can you get from baba to ate in Albanian? Any relation you can explain?

LeBrok said:

Good point. So how can you get from baba to ate in Albanian? Any relation you can explain?

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Apparently we have a pair of onomatopoeic originated words:

pa--pa~ba--ba
and
ta--ta~da--da

We have all witnessed babbled by a child. The fact that we find these onomotopoeias combined in one word in some languages tells me that those word are human manipulated.
It's different when it comes to monosyllabic words, there is no doubt that the ""Greek" word ποι-(έω)=make~do(eng) with a clear onomapotopoic origin, has been spoken by the same people who pronounce it as boj(dialect)=bëj
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bëj

always involving voiceless and voiced pairs of consonants:

ποι(Greek)=boj(Alb)

LeBrok said:

Simple. Turkic homeland was far away in far East Asia, check the maps of Turkic homeland, and they started growing in power and spreading only after year 0, in AD period. By that time IE where already in Europe for 2 thousand years. We are talking about big distances in space and time. By the same token, you can start looking for Chinese words in IE vocabulary.
There is no chance that Turks could influence IE language, till they got close during times of Ottoman empire. And they only influenced Balkans.

Also, I don't think there is any Sumerian influence over Slavic, Germanic or even Celtic IE spectrum. On other hand you will find Sumerian influence on Greek, or protogreek, because of close distance and contacts about 4,000 years ago.

To prove your point find same Sumerian words, not only in Greek or even Balkans, but also in other IE branches. If they lived in Anatolia close to Sumerians, which was powerful and very influential, they must have learned many, and I mean many, Sumerian words. Where are these words?!

Click to expand...

Le brok since you want more
what about Brittish East and out and germanic aus Greek εξω (eksoo or eksu), in bilingual (both Summerian akkadian) is and assu and in Greek Eos Εως.
want more words?

rabishu simmilar robber
Din-gir simmilar Dias Dio Deus (as spirit)
Ehus simmilar οικος house
Heru γυρω arround
edu εν one
sessu εξι six

I don't no, Taranis order me or he ask me to stop, but its much more,

that is my last Le brok and taranis watch it carefully,
Summerian gissu = wizzard like magician, good spell shadow-spirit,
Summerian Digir Dimeer = Deity, in Akkadian Illu Ilu
Hettits' Deity Illuwanga (god of light) is after Akkadian vocabulary wich is the Semitic El
so how come IE illum is from steppe since we find it as Akkadian deity for light

I think I express my shelf the best I could, no need more words.

Zeus10 said:

I disagree with this. This word differs from language to language, but what do they have in common is the cluster at(ad):
πατέρας(new greek)
father(eng)
отец(Russian)
padre(ital)
vater(german)
vader(dutch)
pater(mycenian)
padre(Spanish)

There is only one language which has this unchanged and this is Albanian:
at-ë=father
Apparently this is the original word for every old Europian, and that's the result of an onomatopeic transformation:
ta-ta-ta
which is the a child babble.

Click to expand...

Zeus are you in subject? we speak about the connection of Summerian and IE,

the word mamma exist also in Summerian
the word liligi exist also in Summerian,
so is Albanian also mother language of Summerian except IE?

Yetos said:

Zeus are you in subject? we speak about the connection of Summerian and IE,

the word mamma exist also in Summerian
the word liligi exist also in Summerian,
so is Albanian also mother language of Summerian except IE?

Click to expand...

sure this discussion is coming into details and apparently far from topic, but sometimes some hazardous ways of thinking have to be corrected and then we need details:
for 'bel' : "bright", "white", "pale", "fair", germanic's have a lot of derived words: bleach, bleek, bleich + blême, blafard (2 french words of germanic origin), blau, blue, blauw, blaa + blank >> blanc, bianco, blanco, branco (other "latin" words of germanic origin)
concerning 'father'/'mother', some roots seam showing a *'-tr' suffixe sticked to *'pa-' and *'ma-' which seam onomatopeic components -
I 'm not sure but I red somewhere hittit had 'attah' or 'hattah' for "father' - could the slavic words 'otac', 'otiec' and so on come from this word? breton, welsh AND romanian have 'tad', 'tat': onomatopea there too? (tat-a) -
so there we see apparently different clusters of naming for 'father' (patr/tat/otat) but maybe the onomatopea was the first well?
for the albanian word, I did not know it so I say little - but, Zeuss, I conjure you, stop making the Noah 's language of your respectable albanian (I would be glad to learn a bit about it, by the way) -
sometimes I have the feeling we have some forumers suffering hormonal or "overvitaminal" diseases (joke)...

'ate' (albanian?) could be related to 'otatj'/'otac' ???

MOESAN said:

sure this discussion is coming into details and apparently far from topic, but sometimes some hazardous ways of thinking have to be corrected and then we need details:
for 'bel' : "bright", "white", "pale", "fair", germanic's have a lot of derived words: bleach, bleek, bleich + blême, blafard (2 french words of germanic origin), blau, blue, blauw, blaa + blank >> blanc, bianco, blanco, branco (other "latin" words of germanic origin)
concerning 'father'/'mother', some roots seam showing a *'-tr' suffixe sticked to *'pa-' and *'ma-' which seam onomatopeic components -
I 'm not sure but I red somewhere hittit had 'attah' or 'hattah' for "father' - could the slavic words 'otac', 'otiec' and so on come from this word? breton, welsh AND romanian have 'tad', 'tat': onomatopea there too? (tat-a) -
so there we see apparently different clusters of naming for 'father' (patr/tat/otat) but maybe the onomatopea was the first well?
for the albanian word, I did not know it so I say little - but, Zeuss, I conjure you, stop making the Noah 's language of your respectable albanian (I would be glad to learn a bit about it, by the way) -
sometimes I have the feeling we have some forumers suffering hormonal or "overvitaminal" diseases (joke)...

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why you quote me?

MOESAN said:

'ate' (albanian?) could be related to 'otatj'/'otac' ???

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Exactly. To add more otec and tata are common in slavic. Most likely otec has it roots in tata. Albanian baba can't be connected with Ate, plus baba is not very common in IE for father. Interestingly BABA is also used in Turkic and through Middle East in India. I wonder if it correlates with different Albanian dialects and Ottoman influence, or even some Albanian minorities connected to Middle East, long time ago of course?

Thank you for the clarification Taranis. I've been watching videos on polyglots hoping to pick up kernels of knowledge about various languages because I can't speak any from the Old World--apparently Farsi is a favorite of some polyglots because of the deep history of the people in that area and also because it offers insights into surrounding languages (Turkish, Arabic)

LeBrok said:

Exactly. To add more otec and tata are common in slavic. Most likely otec has it roots in tata. Albanian baba can't be connected with Ate, plus baba is not very common in IE for father. Interestingly BABA is also used in Turkic and through Middle East in India. I wonder if it correlates with different Albanian dialects and Ottoman influence, or even some Albanian minorities connected to Middle East, long time ago of course?

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LeBrok, I think you have not understood me at all. These very basic onomatopoeic originated words, would never be loans because they come ready from the nature for every family hearth spoken language. Furthermore a fully developed natural language like Albanian will never loan such words from a vehicular originated stalling language like Serbian. The very structure of the words in Albanian with an elegante syllabic adherence into it is not meant to borrow the same words which are just loaded with parasitive suffixes. The oppositte might be true, the Serbians who were not even a distinct ethnos (when the Albanians had thousants of years elaborating their language in the family hearth) borrowed that word from them.

to YETOS
I quoted you but in fact I was answering to more than one, ZEUSS among them
all the way, i'm not "tackling" anybody for my pleasure, I'm just trying to keep things on the right way
I think me too that there are a lot of "magic linguistic" sometimes on these threads, and that people, you among them, present hypothesis (sometimes very staggering) as well established facts - I play sometimes, as you, at the etymologic sport, but I keep cautious and it is necessary, I think -
to come back to the thread, I have no solid hypothesis yet about the I-E origin of all the Y-R1b in Europe nor about the precise place of origin of proto-I-E language - even for Y-R1a...
I wonder if Y-R1b would not have sended 2 different waves in C and W Europe, even..., one through Donau river, one along S Baltic shores, so ???
have a good night