Politics we might have political anomaly at Turkey.

Wanderlust said:
Personally, I believe that certain countries and cultures are better served by centrist values, politics and governments--and Turkey is one of them. Though Kemalism implemented many progressive, secularist, socialist policies within post WW1 Turkey, it also ironically touched on Stalinist totalitarianism veiled as "nationalism" in a few places, as far as seeking to aggressively rid Turkey of "cultural difference" and unite all underneath a narrowly defined Turkish identity and homogeneity through state sponsored violence--which is why the Kurds and Armenians were persecuted, disenfranchised and massacred. Extreme-leftists can be just as intolerant and destructive as the right-wing.

I've said this elsewhere recently--fundamentalism in the modern world is more concerned with power, identity and legitimacy than it is to religion, which is usually secondary. Muslims find themselves in a peculiar position because unlike Christians, who have become thoroughly secular throughout much of the West and have a more decentralized and individualized notion of Christianity/spirituality/belief, Islam is intimately and innately attached to their identity; it's even more important than their ethnicity and nationality in many cases. And that identity is connected to a traditional value system that finds itself at odds with science, modernity, secularism and Western cultural dominance. Therefore, of course resistance and pushback in the form of an opposing ideology and worldview, rooted in fundamentalism, is to be expected. Historically--across all countries, peoples and belief systems, an inability to reconcile social complexity (power dynamics and hegemony/identity politics) lays at the heart of fundamentalist uprisings. Under Erdogan, the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction, which will have dire consequences for the Turkish people who are perhaps better served by a system that allows for all, both the traditional and the secular, to have equal voices.

I also think it's important to mention that Erdogan won the last election by a 52/48 margin, so it's not as if the Turkish people overwhelmingly chose an Islamist. There is a real tension between traditional Muslim values and the Western secular values. Interestingly enough, the USA finds itself in a somewhat similar situation--though a bit less volatile--as far as the tension between conservative Christian values and secular liberalism both vying for dominance.
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Actually, the AKP in last elections didn't won more than 50% , actually they went only to 49% , and the electoral process was doubtful. Not mentioning here the skirmishes between the turkey police and the Kurdish rebels went heavier at the time of the electoral process.

To conclude: the Erdogan and AKP has nothing to do with a democratically elected government.
 
Alan said:
That was basically the biggest nonsense argument I have been given since years. I might be Kurd but obviously my information is not biased, the article is from Turkish news paper. The very same guy who started the operations in destroying Kurdish cities with Tanks (the same general sent Tanks and Helicopters on to the streets of Istanbul why should he have any issues in doing it so in Kurdish cities), was also the guy who started this coup. If a fascist military tries to overthrow a powerhungry regime, don't expect from any sane and not biased individual, to be supportive for that. Ironiy is that you call my informations biased because your own judgement is biased due to your political view on this.
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As a Kurd you wish for the destruction of turkey. Erdogan it's succeeding in this. We need a democratic Turkey, and they are destroying it
 
Dinarid said:
No, Turkey would rather ally with Qatar due to the Sunni dictatorship. Greece, Cyprus, and Israel would outweigh any benefits of Russia aligning with Turkey. Personally I wish that Greece, Cyprus, and Israel would turn their backs on Russia but Putin and his propaganda machine are really good at propping up Eurasianist political movements in other countries. Russia has no interest in Turkey but would rather try to counter America and Israel to seek favor with the Kurds.
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The true and the most desire of Russia, it's the alliance with Turkey. It would be the victory of the century for them. Putin knows well that the enemy isn't Turkey, but USA and NATO. Erdogan's goal it's the revive of Ottoman empire. This will never be allowed by NATO and he knows it. His expansionist ideas fits better with the expansionist ideas of Putin. This will be better for both. Tsar~ Putin alliance.

Russia doesn't care for Greece and they don't need Greece.
 
LABERIA said:
Don't spend your time with hypothetical coalitions between countries that can offer only their geographical position. You need a key to understand a situation. Behind the conflicts, the wars, the different crisis and military putchs is the conflict between great powers. It is not a coincidence that a few days before the putch there was a mea culpa of Erdoğan about the Russian jet.


Of course, the interest of every country is important in the game, but not decisive. Who decide in the end are the big guys.
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I was predicting this since a long time.
 
Dinarid said:
You theorized that Turkey will be pulled into Eurasia. My response was to observe and postulate about the relationship between America, Greece, Cyprus, Israel, Russia, and Turkey. These are facts. Israel does have an increasingly strong military alliance with Greece and Cyprus. Russia also does play a role for all of these countries. I see these hypothetical situations as quite useful- I don't quite understand your objection.
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Comparing Israel with Greece and Cyprus it's nonsense. The only ally of Israel it's USA. Greece and Cyprus are not enough strong to deal with the geo politics, instead Israel it is.
 
Maleth said:
Turkish people have voted Erdogan in power (unless the votes were rigged which i dont think so) So why a coup? unless he decides that there will be no more elections and establish a dictatorship. Also in Egypt. Isn't this antidemocratic irrelevant to whether you agree with the policies or not? What I cannot understand is why people are happy to vote for these people in the first place? There must be many reasons for this, were people who live in different social structures will find it difficult to understand.
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Before 1990 there were held elections in my country every year. The communist party won the elections every time. The result 99% of voters voted pro the communist party [emoji16].

Erdogan democratically elected! ! Please, don't make me laugh [emoji19]
 
Piro Ilir said:
As a Kurd you wish for the destruction of turkey. Erdogan it's succeeding in this. We need a democratic Turkey, and they are destroying it
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interresting words, 'WE NEED'?

are you a Turk?
 
bicicleur said:
because Erdogan takes controll over the press and the media
he limits free speech, punishing 'insults'
he is dividing the country and doesn't respect any human rights
he is replacing judges and military officers by men of his own environment
it looks like his ultimate goal is to abolish democracy

he is no better than Puttin

and indeed a majority of Turks was stupid enough to vote on him
I din't know how this can be resolved, I'm quite pessimistic
I'm glad they are not in the EU
shame on you, Frau Merkel to restart negociations
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To add either the revoke of immunity of the deputies of parliament. They could be arrested at any moment if the Erdogan's security service this that any of them it's suspended for terrorism. They call it the anti terror law.
 
Maleth said:
I agree that Negotiations are a good thing, unless someone decides that its ok to give up some of the basic fundamental values just to accommodate a country for a particular reason or another. The few Turks I came across were very secular (not to mention very nice and friendly people) but mostly came from Istanbul (if it makes any difference). But Turkey is a large country and it seems its going to take a very long time before they would feel genuinely comfortable being part of the EU and also of course the other way round.
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1- The Turks of European part and western Anatolia are more secular than the others.

2- the Turkish migrants are more westerners than the Turks living in Turkey. We have many here in my country and they looks not oriental.
 
well as it seems Turkey is moving to civil war,

by what Hamza hemze the Kurd says
Turkey's miltary groups have been seen at the mountains as rebels against Erdogan,
at least 40 helicopters missing etc etc

at Con/polis Allevi Turks tooks arms and guard the roads of their neighborhoods, since Erdogan's crowd is entering with attacking and hostile feelings
At Malateia tonight street fights and a kind of war/pogrom is on loose against Allevi and HDP party and kurds

well this story reminds me 1950's at Turkey and Menteres,
if Islamist take the power then about 30 000 000 Allevis and Kurds might ask asyllum at EU,

seems like Erdogan nowdays is playing his last cards,
either he manage to pass the Sunni Islamic Ottoman empire
either he will be hanged like Menteres
17 september is not far
the first total sunni state was created by Suleigman the magnificent when he killed Grand Vizier Ibrahim pasha, the Greek, and settled the Kadi (sunic law judges and lawers)
also Allevi Piri Reis and Greek Barbarosa although he sent the last one to Tynissia.

Erdogan has expelled his 2 early life and carrer friends
Fetullah Gullen
and Davutoglu
in fact like another Suleigman he created a Fetva against Gullen, and he asks his head,
I think his paths follow the Suleigman paths, or the Menteres steps

well I still support democracy and the elected goverment at Turkey,
but I think is time for new elections there.

to understand more what is happening to Turkey
look this
reduan_mesa.jpg


only the man is not Turk, but Morrocan, his name is Redouan Balch,
now why a morrocan is fighting for Erdogan?
I do not know, but I can guess,
 
In the words of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk:

"This is Islam, an absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, a rotting corpse which poisons our lives".
 
In words of Mr. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, "the Turk belongs to the best race on this world. The Turk is born to be a Ruler. Happy is the Person who can call himself a Turk. Turkic is the mother of all Human languages (Sun language theory).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Language_Theory

But at least he was anti Islamic....
 
bicicleur said:
because Erdogan takes controll over the press and the media
he limits free speech, punishing 'insults'
he is dividing the country and doesn't respect any human rights
he is replacing judges and military officers by men of his own environment
it looks like his ultimate goal is to abolish democracy
Click to expand...


^This, there is no medial opposition to him anymore.
 
Alan said:
In words of Mr. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, "the Turk belongs to the best race on this world. The Turk is born to be a Ruler. Happy is the Person who can call himself a Turk. Turkic is the mother of all Human languages (Sun language theory).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Language_Theory

But at least he was anti Islamic....
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Exactly! I've actually read YouTube comments (never a good idea, and I'm embarrassed to admit it) from pan-Turkists who literally believe that the Native Americans are all Turks. However, we're dealing with a nation of 75-80 million people, and with a lot of potential, so if that pan-Turkism is strong enough to suppress Islam, then good for it! Unfortunately Erdoğan created a synthesis of pan-Turkism and Islam, and let's not forget Hungary's Jobbik party, which is a weird mixture of neo-nazism, pan-Turkism, Islamophilia, anti-Semitism, and Russophilia/Eurasianism, although I believe the latter is a more recent development.
 
Dinarid said:
Exactly! I've actually read YouTube comments (never a good idea, and I'm embarrassed to admit it) from pan-Turkists who literally believe that the Native Americans are all Turks. However, we're dealing with a nation of 75-80 million people, and with a lot of potential, so if that pan-Turkism is strong enough to suppress Islam, then good for it! Unfortunately Erdoğan created a synthesis of pan-Turkism and Islam, and let's not forget Hungary's Jobbik party, which is a weird mixture of neo-nazism, pan-Turkism, Islamophilia, anti-Semitism, and Russophilia/Eurasianism, although I believe the latter is a more recent development.
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Indeed, Erdogan himself is one of them. He claims America was discovered by Muslims before Colombus did.
 
Dinarid said:
so if that pan-Turkism is strong enough to suppress Islam, then good for it!
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I think this is how Europe evolved to where it is today. Or maybe not. I just recall Euro being very religious in Medieval, then having a rise of Nationalism and then after both World Wars nationalism gave its way to other ideas.
Turks are now being pushed back from nationalism to religion, instead of (what you can actually observe with Turkish intelligence) moving on to more progressive state.
 
Yetos said:
well as it seems Turkey is moving to civil war,

by what Hamza hemze the Kurd says
Turkey's miltary groups have been seen at the mountains as rebels against Erdogan,
at least 40 helicopters missing etc etc

at Con/polis Allevi Turks tooks arms and guard the roads of their neighborhoods, since Erdogan's crowd is entering with attacking and hostile feelings
At Malateia tonight street fights and a kind of war/pogrom is on loose against Allevi and HDP party and kurds

well this story reminds me 1950's at Turkey and Menteres,
if Islamist take the power then about 30 000 000 Allevis and Kurds might ask asyllum at EU,

seems like Erdogan nowdays is playing his last cards,
either he manage to pass the Sunni Islamic Ottoman empire
either he will be hanged like Menteres
17 september is not far
the first total sunni state was created by Suleigman the magnificent when he killed Grand Vizier Ibrahim pasha, the Greek, and settled the Kadi (sunic law judges and lawers)
also Allevi Piri Reis and Greek Barbarosa although he sent the last one to Tynissia.

Erdogan has expelled his 2 early life and carrer friends
Fetullah Gullen
and Davutoglu
in fact like another Suleigman he created a Fetva against Gullen, and he asks his head,
I think his paths follow the Suleigman paths, or the Menteres steps

well I still support democracy and the elected goverment at Turkey,
but I think is time for new elections there.

to understand more what is happening to Turkey
look this
reduan_mesa.jpg


only the man is not Turk, but Morrocan, his name is Redouan Balch,
now why a morrocan is fighting for Erdogan?
I do not know, but I can guess,
Click to expand...
What's your point? The Allevi are against Erdogan?
 
Dinarid said:
Exactly! I've actually read YouTube comments (never a good idea, and I'm embarrassed to admit it) from pan-Turkists who literally believe that the Native Americans are all Turks. However, we're dealing with a nation of 75-80 million people, and with a lot of potential, so if that pan-Turkism is strong enough to suppress Islam, then good for it! Unfortunately Erdoğan created a synthesis of pan-Turkism and Islam, and let's not forget Hungary's Jobbik party, which is a weird mixture of neo-nazism, pan-Turkism, Islamophilia, anti-Semitism, and Russophilia/Eurasianism, although I believe the latter is a more recent development.
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The latter it's a more recent event because Orban it's inspired by the autocratic rule of Putin
 
arvistro said:
I think this is how Europe evolved to where it is today. Or maybe not. I just recall Euro being very religious in Medieval, then having a rise of Nationalism and then after both World Wars nationalism gave its way to other ideas.
Turks are now being pushed back from nationalism to religion, instead of (what you can actually observe with Turkish intelligence) moving on to more progressive state.
Click to expand...
Nationalism holds the society together, and is thus necessary for social progress.
 
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