The genetic origin of Daunians

This book/paper written by Mario Gavranović, Daniela Heilmann, Aleksandar Kapuran and Marek Verčík (Eds.) in 2020 i think, adds a lot of value to Balkan archeology.

This series is based on a new cycle of conferences to be held every 2 or 3 years in the Balkans, and the first publication of them appeared in 2016 as Godišnjak [Sarajevo] vol. 47. These proceedings of the 2nd conference in Belgrade in 2017 contains a foreword, prologue, introduction, and 14 papers. They deal with the interaction in the SW Balkans in the M-LBA, similarities and differences in the material culture of the Belegiš II-Gava Group in the South Pannonian Plain and Morava Basin, inhumation vs. cremation in the LBA between the South Carpathian Basin and the W-Balkans, Dalmatia in the LBA to EIA, body armour in the LBA, the settlement at Čepintsi in its LBA context, settlements and cemeteries in EIA Macedonia, the Sea Peoples and the discourse of “Balkanism” in LBA archaeology, cultural continuity in the Western Morava Basin in the LBA-EIA, Late Hallstatt connections between the SE-Carpathian Basin and the Western and Central Balkans, female belt adornment in 7th/6th-century N-Albania, IA burial customs in N-Greece, “monochrome ware” in N-Greece from the Late Geometric to the Archaic Period, and life cycles of two metal vessels from a 4th-century grave at Vergina / Aegae.
https://www.vml.de/e/detail.php?ISBN=978-3-86757-110-4
 
The big question is, if cremation is not the main factor. If iron tech was the main propeller of V13, why is V13 not all over the place, surely militaristically they would have had an edge, why confined to S-E Balkans.

I have to admit I tried wrapping my head around V13, many times. And just looking at Yfull I commend you and Aspurg for trying, its one of the more complicated diverse haplos I have come across. So much variety, so little clues.

PS: Did not proofread any of that so hope I did not give you guys a headache.

E-V13 might have been strong in South Eastern Urnfield, Gava/Channelled Ware related groups, probably not even in the Gava centre itself, but its cultural descendents on the Balkan. To the North West, there were the Lusatians, which, as a whole, migh thave acquired E-V13 too, but not in this numbers. So coming under pressure or being blocked to the North by related people (Lusatian) and the East (Cimmerian-Scythian), the natural expansion, also economically more promising, was going South, and that's what we see. Just like with the LBA movement with Naue swords before, in which they might or might not have participated already.

Also, they practically were all over the place South of their cultural relatives and the Urnfield network. Its like in the West with the Western Urnfield groups, which too didn't fight as much into the related network, which also bound together by religious ideas, but into the deep West, into the territory of "infidels", which paved the way for the Celtic sphere later.

If you partition the various territories they could move into, the Eastern half of Central Europe and South Eastern Europe was the geographically natural expansion for a group from the Eastern Carpathians. Going the same pathways as Slavs did later, with Pannonian and Southern Slavs, practically exactly the same.

I read in one article something like "Hallstatt cannelure-groups", which basically refers to the Eastern Hallstatt groups with Channelled Ware and these are pretty closely connected to Daco-Thracian people. I agree with Aspurg, that the Pannonian, more Urnfield shifted groups are a different kind of people most likely than the coastal "true Illyrians" and they should be more E-V13 in comparison. Not as much dominated as Thracians, but much more so than the other Illyrians. We see how different Urnfield newcomers being incorporated archaeologically already. Its visible they came as new migrants, but they didn't completley replace the local people, so might have been ethnically assimilated themselves in a lot of places or by later expansions, again like Aspurg said.
 
Riverman thanks, makes a lot of sense.

Meanwhile Trojet posted some new info on Anthro.

MEEWHbl.png


https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21878/


Guess this kind of hints at Albanian rather than Croatian connection. But who knows.
 
What I can say is that a lot of sceptics, and naysayers' theories are dead in the water.

Theories such as Albanian and Illyrian have no connection. There is no proof, yada yada.
Ancient samples alone settled this debate (Dalmatia,Mokrin,Albania,Puglia), now people can bang heads all they want or even headbang a wall for all its worth.

Looking back now, 10 year old posts on this forum, threads even valiantly defended by moderators at the time, are as cringeworthy as any Apricity thread. Those Serbian and Greek posters no longer around, and with them their 15th century Caucasian and African theories.

Just Parapolitikos left, and whoever is so clueless to upvote his gibberish.

Now if the mods could unlock the Albanian genetics thread, so I won't have to post these stuff here that would be great.
 
E-v13 is so complicated
Haplogroup the more i learn
The less i know..:LOL:
 
E-v13 is so complicated
Haplogroup the more i learn
The less i know..:LOL:

I seriously doubt that E-V13 in Sicily/South Italy was brought in Early Middle Ages. I thought Messapians were primary candidates due to high E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia, but now i think Classical Greeks are responsible for a big number, if you check archeological records the Corinthian Greeks and Messapians different on burial rites in that Corinthians used cremation vs inhumation used by Messapi and similar groups.

Then again you have Ligures in North-West Italy, with probably ~15% of E-V13.
 
What I can say is that a lot of sceptics, and naysayers' theories are dead in the water.

Theories such as Albanian and Illyrian have no connection. There is no proof, yada yada.
Ancient samples alone settled this debate (Dalmatia,Mokrin,Albania,Puglia), now people can bang heads all they want or even headbang a wall for all its worth.

Looking back now, 10 year old posts on this forum, threads even valiantly defended by moderators at the time, are as cringeworthy as any Apricity thread. Those Serbian and Greek posters no longer around, and with them their 15th century Caucasian and African theories.

Just Parapolitikos left, and whoever is so clueless to upvote his gibberish.

Now if the mods could unlock the Albanian genetics thread, so I won't have to post these stuff here that would be great.

If anything, just start a new thread, and link the old one in the OP.


TBH, prior to this hobby, I never knew other people were so invested in the Iapygian tribes, especially in regard to their own origins, etc. If anything I think people from Puglia feel more of a cultural and ethnic affinity to the Greeks (other than fellow Italians), like my grandfather did.


The Iapygians don't really have much sentimental meaning for me, I always considered them just a component or small part of my ancestry. I feel more towards Greece, and Rome. It is all part of the broader Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum, articulated by the study. My own genetics inform me that I am broadly autochthonous to the Northern Mediterranean basin, specifically around south Italy and the Balkans/Greece.

3tuzSQ7l.png
 
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I seriously doubt that E-V13 in Sicily/South Italy was brought in Early Middle Ages. I thought Messapians were primary candidates due to high E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia, but now i think Classical Greeks are responsible for a big number, if you check archeological records the Corinthian Greeks and Messapians different on burial rites in that Corinthians used cremation vs inhumation used by Messapi and similar groups.
Then again you have Ligures in North-West Italy, with probably ~15% of E-V13.

It might be the e-v13 in the north of italy from germanic tribes Lombards etc....
And some of it must be from celtic source ....:unsure:
 
If anything, just start a new thread, and link the old one in the OP.


TBH, prior to this hobby, I never knew other people were so invested in the Iapygian tribes, especially in regard to their own origins, etc. If anything I think people from Puglia feel more of a cultural and ethnic affinity to the Greeks (other than fellow Italians), like my grandfather did.


The Iapygians don't really have much sentimental meaning for me, I always considered them just a component or small part of my ancestry. I feel more towards Greece, and Rome. It is all part of the broader Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum, articulated by the study. My own genetics inform me that I am broadly autochthonous to the Northern Mediterranean basin, specifically around south Italy and the Balkans.

3tuzSQ7l.png

It is a personal matter I guess, you can feel proud and sentimental with what you so much desire.

I would think by now as a moderator over the years you would have noticed how contested Albanian connection to Illyrian has been, mainly due to political reasons.

Also I would think you would have noticed the countless posts about Messapic, very informative ones even from the likes of Johane.

Least you forget the weekly occurrence of such discussions years back...

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...anians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity

Scroll through the thread and there you have it. One of many threads. Yet, Albanian posters were banned as unscientific nationalists, and such discussions patronaged. Tis one of many threads, but it should bring back the memory of where we started.

So no wonder, I and I suspect a lot of fellow Albanians would feel vindicated. Don't you agree?
 
It is a personal matter I guess, you can feel proud and sentimental with what you so much desire.

I would think by now as a moderator over the years you would have noticed how contested Albanian connection to Illyrian has been, mainly due to political reasons.

Also I would think you would have noticed the countless posts about Messapic, very informative ones even from the likes of Johane.

Least you forget the weekly occurrence of such discussions years back...

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...anians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity

Scroll through the thread and there you have it. One of many threads. Yet, Albanian posters were banned as unscientific nationalists, and such discussions patronaged. Tis one of many threads, but it should bring back the memory of where we started.

So no wonder, I and I suspect a lot of fellow Albanians would feel vindicated. Don't you agree?

Like I said, prior to the hobby, I didn't consider it. (i.e. growing up)

"TBH, prior to this hobby, I never knew other people were so invested in the Iapygian tribes, especially in regard to their own origins, etc. "
 
Yep. I see/saw. My points still stand.

Growing up in the Balkans, being bombarded with politics and racism on daily basis, your experience sounds like a luxury.
Why it was especially aggravating to see it tolerated in forums with supposedly more enlightened values. I made the mistake of re reading some of the comments of the thread I linked, and gagging a little.

So yeah, I would imagine it was a culture shock for you to see the shitshows started over genetics and nationalism on this forum over the years.

Now what I find peculiar is that the thread about Who are the Albanians is closed, while the thread hinting L283 are recent migrants in Albania allowed to stand. I would guess for you it is a minor issue, and peculiar why I would find it so baffling, but trust me from my perspective its disgraceful.

If posters from different DNA projects insult each other ban them, but no use closing the thread. Either way, I might just create a new discussion, if that one can not be restored.

Edit: My bad you are registered in 2017, most of the really disgusting discussion where much earlier, when the cost of genetic tests were a barrier to having enough evidence for educated discussions. But overall you catch my drift.
 
Yep. I see/saw. My points still stand.

Growing up in the Balkans, being bombarded with politics and racism on daily basis, your experience sounds like a luxury.
Why it was especially aggravating to see it tolerated in forums with supposedly more enlightened values. I made the mistake of re reading some of the comments of the thread I linked, and gagging a little.

So yeah, I would imagine it was a culture shock for you to see the shitshows started over genetics and nationalism on this forum over the years.

Now what I find peculiar is that the thread about Who are the Albanians is closed, while the thread hinting L283 are recent migrants in Albania allowed to stand. I would guess for you it is a minor issue, and peculiar why I would find it so baffling, but trust me from my perspective its disgraceful.

If posters from different DNA projects insult each other ban them, but no use closing the thread. Either way, I might just create a new discussion, if that one can not be restored.

Oh really, and what about the constant idiot t-rolls that harass Italians, especially southern Italians? The countless sock-puppets? The Nordicists, Levantist, Afrocentrics, etc all trying to poison discourse with their own agendas. Instead of trying to find some commonality, you go the opposite direction.

Yeah, I am happy to have grown up in the Untied States, and I am happy to have become rich here too. I live a better life than most, which I take pride in. I believe in going forward and upward.

I don't even need to look back on a glorious ancestry, since my life is probably objectively better than the elites of many old civilizations.
 
Oh really, and what about the constant idiot t-rolls that harass Italians, especially southern Italians? The countless sock-puppets? The Nordicists, Levantist, Afrocentrics, etc all trying to poison discourse with their own agendas. Instead of trying to find some commonality, you go the opposite direction.

I think you know my opinion on this one Jovialis. As I have many times backed you against such asinine discussions. South Italians Middle Eastern, North Italians were Nordics, Romans Nords, Romans Middle Eastern etc. No matter if it was Afrocentrism or Nordicism you know where I stood on such issues. And I can tell you that it was easy, cause of plenty of papers and studies, and the evidence backing the reasonable conclusions.

Ps: Even when I read my own comments I can see that my tone is quite confrontational. But as I am writing this and the comments before, I guarantee you I am quite calm. Not sure why the posts come out that way :embarassed:

Edit:(y) here is an emoji, since I am out of upvotes, and meant to give a few.
 
I think you know my opinion on this one Jovialis. As I have many times backed you against such asinine discussions. South Italians Middle Eastern, North Italians were Nordics, Romans Nords, Romans Middle Eastern etc. No matter if it was Afrocentrism or Nordicism you know where I stood on such issues. And I can tell you that it was easy, cause of plenty of papers and studies, and the evidence backing the reasonable conclusions.

Ps: Even when I read my own comments I can see that my tone is quite confrontational. But as I am writing this and the comments before, I guarantee you I am quite calm. Not sure why the posts come out that way :embarassed:

It's all good, (y)

I always have the back of anyone who is being abused here on this forum. This is no place for hatred, but intellectual discourse.
 
It is a personal matter I guess, you can feel proud and sentimental with what you so much desire.

I would think by now as a moderator over the years you would have noticed how contested Albanian connection to Illyrian has been, mainly due to political reasons.

Also I would think you would have noticed the countless posts about Messapic, very informative ones even from the likes of Johane.

Least you forget the weekly occurrence of such discussions years back...

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...anians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity

Scroll through the thread and there you have it. One of many threads. Yet, Albanian posters were banned as unscientific nationalists, and such discussions patronaged. Tis one of many threads, but it should bring back the memory of where we started.

So no wonder, I and I suspect a lot of fellow Albanians would feel vindicated. Don't you agree?

Every time I want to laugh [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23], I go back and read these threads. They are like a gift that keeps on giving, I hope they never delete them. Just enjoy [emoji6].


Image1627924428.075055.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Basarabi dynasty are of this subclade, so Moldovan J-L283 sample isn't of relevance here. There are also some Albanians in this clade.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22894/

Regarding the E-V13:
Old Svilengrad E-Z1919+/ some said he was already V13+
Kapitan Andreevo E-L618, surely V13+ on more resolution
Kapitan Andreevo E-V13
Moldovan "Scythian" E-FGC44169 , autosomally Getae, shows similiarity to Thraco-Cimmerian Babadag sample
Bulgaria, LIA E

Also Bulgaria Late Antiquity E-V13. The fact that random Thracian samples from EIA, LIA, LA belong to the same hg says this hg dominated it. Late Antiquity Viminatium, Daco-Mysian area shows heavy E-V13.

I warned you that there might be a very sharp border between the J-L283 and E-V13 lands, and these new results point towards such a scenario. These groups which expanded in BA seem to have had pretty exclusive meta-ethnic affiliation:
R-Z93 is Iranic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
R-U106 is Germanic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
R-Z280 Balto-Slavic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
J-L283 is Illyrian, nothing else in any meaningful sense
E-V13 is Thracian, nothing else in any meaningful sense...



origins of J-L283 is in north-caucasus
 
E-V13 might have been strong in South Eastern Urnfield, Gava/Channelled Ware related groups, probably not even in the Gava centre itself, but its cultural descendents on the Balkan. To the North West, there were the Lusatians, which, as a whole, migh thave acquired E-V13 too, but not in this numbers. So coming under pressure or being blocked to the North by related people (Lusatian) and the East (Cimmerian-Scythian), the natural expansion, also economically more promising, was going South, and that's what we see. Just like with the LBA movement with Naue swords before, in which they might or might not have participated already.

Also, they practically were all over the place South of their cultural relatives and the Urnfield network. Its like in the West with the Western Urnfield groups, which too didn't fight as much into the related network, which also bound together by religious ideas, but into the deep West, into the territory of "infidels", which paved the way for the Celtic sphere later.

If you partition the various territories they could move into, the Eastern half of Central Europe and South Eastern Europe was the geographically natural expansion for a group from the Eastern Carpathians. Going the same pathways as Slavs did later, with Pannonian and Southern Slavs, practically exactly the same.

I read in one article something like "Hallstatt cannelure-groups", which basically refers to the Eastern Hallstatt groups with Channelled Ware and these are pretty closely connected to Daco-Thracian people. I agree with Aspurg, that the Pannonian, more Urnfield shifted groups are a different kind of people most likely than the coastal "true Illyrians" and they should be more E-V13 in comparison. Not as much dominated as Thracians, but much more so than the other Illyrians. We see how different Urnfield newcomers being incorporated archaeologically already. Its visible they came as new migrants, but they didn't completley replace the local people, so might have been ethnically assimilated themselves in a lot of places or by later expansions, again like Aspurg said.

which Halstatt culture...the 1200-900 when the celts mixed with the Illyrians in modern austria .......or ........800-600BC period when they mixed with italic and balkan peoples?
 
I think you know my opinion on this one Jovialis. As I have many times backed you against such asinine discussions. South Italians Middle Eastern, North Italians were Nordics, Romans Nords, Romans Middle Eastern etc. No matter if it was Afrocentrism or Nordicism you know where I stood on such issues. And I can tell you that it was easy, cause of plenty of papers and studies, and the evidence backing the reasonable conclusions.

Ps: Even when I read my own comments I can see that my tone is quite confrontational. But as I am writing this and the comments before, I guarantee you I am quite calm. Not sure why the posts come out that way :embarassed:

Edit:(y) here is an emoji, since I am out of upvotes, and meant to give a few.

do you mean the Norici of austria

The Norici and Taurisci were neighboured across the Danube by the vast homeland of the Boii, to the east by the Dacian Racatae and the Illyrian Azali, to the south by the Latovici, Carni, and Ambidravi,
 

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