David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

I thought he was Jewish as well. Anyway, "Iranian" is what I was getting at since, supposedly, that was one of the key progenitors that ended up on the step and was associated with the "Corded" type.

I think Lawrence Angel was more on the ball than Carleton Coon.
 
I think the fixation exists because some ethnic groups (richer in steppe ancestry) want to feel like the dominating masters of Europe. If all the great European civilizations stopped speaking native languages ​​and started to speak Indo-European languages; for them this means that the Indo-Europeans are the 'masters' behind all the great European civilizations. It was a very common thesis among the Nazis. For them the pre-Indo-European farmers are the 'plebs' and the elites the 'masters' who carried new languages ​​and new cultures. It seems to be a kind of colonial mentality within Europe. Here in Brazil the native and African populations were seen as the slaves/dominated, while the Portuguese were the dominators.

I think the original Indo-European-speakers were heterogenous from earliest times and many were more like modern Iranians than modern North Europeans.

Also a civilisation and an economy is created by craftsmen, workers and peasants not unskilled savages whose only skill is killing unarmed working people.
 
I think the original Indo-European-speakers were heterogenous from earliest times and many were more like modern Iranians than modern North Europeans.

Also a civilisation and an economy is created by craftsmen, workers and peasants not unskilled savages whose only skill is killing unarmed working people.

First of all, they were not unskilled savages by any means, but had their advantages. Secondly, most civilisations became weak over time, and prey to more warlike pastoralists, which had a better demography and cohesion, were more flexible, among other things. And that doesn't apply to IE only, but e.g. Semites too.
 
I think the original Indo-European-speakers were heterogenous from earliest times and many were more like modern Iranians than modern North Europeans.

Also a civilisation and an economy is created by craftsmen, workers and peasants not unskilled savages whose only skill is killing unarmed working people.

How about comparing craftsmen skills with actual craftsmen-snps between the steppe, southern Arc, and farmers from Europe? For example the wheel, or pottery..
Can you give a craftsman example from each region.
 
You've got to be kidding me. You're taking a quote from a book about the old movie on Spartacus starring Kirk Douglas? Did you notice that there's no citation for that quote?Are you going to quote from picture books next? Some of you people don't have the foggiest clue what constitutes actual scholarship.You're going to have to go back on ignore until you can string together a logically cohesive statement.
Most slaves in Sicily came from Eastern Mediterranean according to Diodorus Siculus. There was a large slave revolt started by a Syrian, Cicilian and a Greek in Sicily.Also in Pompeii most slaves came from the east and they had Greek names. https://www.google.com/books/editio...omestic+slaves&pg=PA22&printsec=frontcoverThe 60% free population also includes freedmen. Freeborns were a minority in Pompeii.
 
Most slaves in Sicily came from Eastern Mediterranean according to Diodorus Siculus. There was a large slave revolt started by a Syrian, Cicilian and a Greek in Sicily.Also in Pompeii most slaves came from the east and they had Greek names. https://www.google.com/books/editio...omestic+slaves&pg=PA22&printsec=frontcoverThe 60% free population also includes freedmen. Freeborns were a minority in Pompeii.

Pulp pseudo-history for the semi literate. Next you'll present a tourist brochure as evidence.

1. There was a large slave revolt in Sicily
2. The reputed leaders were a Cilician and a Greek
3. All slaves in Sicily were from Anatolia

The third conclusion is supposed to logically flow from the first two. Don't you see that it doesn't?

Slaves had Greek names because their owners named them. Plus, has it escaped your awareness that you were talking about Anatolians, not Greeks?

A Greek "historian" also told us that the Etruscans came from Anatolia in the first millennium B.C. When are some people going to get that "historians" of the Classical Era were not historians in the modern sense.

On top of all that, slaves on latifundia were not breeding very much. Most of them were worked to death rather quickly, as were those in the mines and rowing the galleys.

I rest my case.
 
Pulp pseudo-history for the semi literate. Next you'll present a tourist brochure as evidence.

1. There was a large slave revolt in Sicily
2. The reputed leaders were a Cilician and a Greek
3. All slaves in Sicily were from Anatolia

The third conclusion is supposed to logically flow from the first two. Don't you see that it doesn't?

Slaves had Greek names because their owners named them. Plus, has it escaped your awareness that you were talking about Anatolians, not Greeks?

A Greek "historian" also told us that the Etruscans came from Anatolia in the first millennium B.C. When are some people going to get that "historians" of the Classical Era were not historians in the modern sense.

On top of all that, slaves on latifundia were not breeding very much. Most of them were worked to death rather quickly, as were those in the mines and rowing the galleys.

I rest my case.

I said most slaves in Sicily came from Eastern Mediterranean. In which I believe the Anatolian element was more dominant even though I don't have much evidence to back this up.

There are even books dedicated this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Servile_War

https://www.amazon.com/Romes-Sicilian-Slave-Wars-Revolts/dp/1526767465

Wait until the new studies come up and we will see.
 
How about comparing craftsmen skills with actual craftsmen-snps between the steppe, southern Arc, and farmers from Europe? For example the wheel, or pottery..
Can you give a craftsman example from each region.

What are you talking about?
 
First of all, they were not unskilled savages by any means, but had their advantages. Secondly, most civilisations became weak over time, and prey to more warlike pastoralists, which had a better demography and cohesion, were more flexible, among other things. And that doesn't apply to IE only, but e.g. Semites too.


How are pastoralists more "flexible" than agriculturalists?
 
What are you talking about?

SA6004 Oldest Wagon-Driver
Y-DNA haplogroup - Q1a2
mtDNA haplogroup - U7b

Ulan-IV-kurgan-4-grave-15-3D-wagon-reconstruction-created-using-Autodesk-3-ds-Max-1.png
 
How are pastoralists more "flexible" than agriculturalists?
https://musaeumscythia.blogspot.com/2021/10/

[h=3]The oldest known iron smiths of Europe - New evidence for meteoric iron objects belonging the Yamnaya culture[/h]
R1b-Z2103>Z-2108+ Iron objects


In total there were six iron objects found in the Boldyrevo I grave. One of these artefacts was an iron knife, with a blade of roughly 14 centimeters long, another was an adze and another was a chisel-like object. The other three objects were not able to be properly identified.
 
How can you prove these iron items were not made by ethnic or cultural outsiders?

Up until very recent times Bedouin pastoralists depended on an outcast tribe called the Sleyb/Solubba as ironworkers and tinkers.

Pastoralists do not have the skill or training to make such objects.
 
How can you prove these iron items were not made by ethnic or cultural outsiders?

Up until very recent times Bedouin pastoralists depended on an outcast tribe called the Sleyb/Solubba as ironworkers and tinkers.

Pastoralists do not have the skill or training to make such objects.

Bedouin speak Afro-Asiatic-There is no word for wheel in proto-Afro Asiatic. Perhaps you can give an example of a wheel and iron, in the group you think crafted them.

Here is another example of metal work R1b-Z2103>z2108

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ogenesis_of_'Dniester_CopperBronze_Metallurgy'
Baltic-Pontic Studies
vol. 22: 2017, 226-245
ISSN 1231-0344
DOI 10.1515/bps-2017-0027
Viktor I. Klochko*
YAMNAYA CULTURE HOARD OF METAL OBJECTS,
IVANIVKA, LOWER MURAFA: AUTOGENESIS
OF ‘DNIESTER COPPER/BRONZE
METALLURGY

Ivonivka type’ is the best t, belonging to the decline YC. The objects from the Ivonivka Hoard (Fig. 1: 2) are one of akind; it is the rst
discovery of such and of ametal tool from the early Bronze Age in the north-
ern Black Sea Region. The artefacts from the hoard (Fig. 1: 3, 4) have asimilar
form to that of Eneolithic ‘Usatovo’ and ‘Maykop’ at axe-adzes in the Anatolia
tradition, though diering signicantly in their smaller dimensions, though among
‘Maykop’ samples there also occur similarly small products (Fig. 12: 4-6; 7).
It is possible to suggest that the ‘Ivonivka Hoard’ reects the craftwork of
amaster carpenter, which ought to be dated to the late phase of the YC. It is par-
ticularly interesting to nd analogies of this with the wooden cart from site 6 in
Pysarivka near Yampil [Harat, Potupczyk, Razumow 2014: 142-145] in respect to
its possible constructors and place of workshop.
 
First of all, they were not unskilled savages by any means, but had their advantages. Secondly, most civilisations became weak over time, and prey to more warlike pastoralists, which had a better demography and cohesion, were more flexible, among other things. And that doesn't apply to IE only, but e.g. Semites too.

I agree with the bolded comment.

As to being more "flexible", that I don't see. People adapt to their environment. The Natufian hunter-gatherers adapted to an environment where there was plenty. They were smart enough to figure out that they could store the grains from plants in their environment, then plant them in suitable nearby areas, then domesticate the animals in their vicinity.

People living in an environment hostile to agriculture lived on hunting and fishing. When they traded furs, perhaps, for goods from farmers they realized they could trade for these animals which could probably live off the steppe grass.

It's as simple as that.

The farmers of the Balkans were "flexible" and smart enough to realize that maybe they could use naturally occurring ores to make ornaments, then tools, then they were flexible enough to experiment with combining the ores. The steppe people just traded for metal goods. Eventually they did try to copy them, but the original attempts were very primitive.

Humans adapt or die.

As for turning to pastoralism when agriculture failed, I'm sure you're aware that there's quite a bit of literature indicating that actually, pastoralism was first attempted by farmers and it spread from them to the steppe.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think what the steppe people "invented", other than piling their goods on carts and going to the new pastures versus transhumanism as practiced by farmers to this day. That, and the "real" advantage, the domestication of the horse.
 
Bedouin speak Afro-Asiatic-There is no word for wheel in proto-Afro Asiatic. Perhaps you can give an example of a wheel and iron, in the group you think crafted them.

Here is another example of metal work R1b-Z2103>z2108

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ogenesis_of_'Dniester_CopperBronze_Metallurgy'
Baltic-Pontic Studies
vol. 22: 2017, 226-245
ISSN 1231-0344
DOI 10.1515/bps-2017-0027
Viktor I. Klochko*
YAMNAYA CULTURE HOARD OF METAL OBJECTS,
IVANIVKA, LOWER MURAFA: AUTOGENESIS
OF ‘DNIESTER COPPER/BRONZE
METALLURGY

You are an expert in proto-Afro-Asiatic now?

The Steppe people got ironworking from migrants from south of the Caucasus mountains.
 
In fact, I'm hard pressed to think what the steppe people "invented", other than piling their goods on carts and going to the new pastures versus transhumanism as practiced by farmers to this day. That, and the "real" advantage, the domestication of the horse.

That just about sums it up.:LOL:
 
You are an expert in proto-Afro-Asiatic now?

The Steppe people got ironworking from migrants from south of the Caucasus mountains.
You mean R1b-Z2103>z2108+ traded(traded for their wheels and wagons and iron) with Maykop? Can you give an example.

 
Maybe your thinking of wheeled wagons and iron among the Elamites. Perhaps that is who the Hittites learned from, not Maykop?
Elamite, also known as Hatamtite, is an extinct language that was spoken by the ancient Elamites. It was used in present-day southwestern Iran from 2600 BC to 330 BC.[1] Elamite works disappear from the archeological record after Alexander the Great entered Iran. Elamite is generally thought to have no demonstrable relatives and is usually considered a language isolate. The lack of established relatives makes its interpretation difficult.[2]


Where was the first known wheel, dating back to the Copper Age (i.e., 4000-3000 BC), invented?

https://quizzclub.com/trivia/where-...age-i-e-4000-3000-bc-invented/answer/1512356/

Though the evidence is not definitive, the first wheels might not have been found on vehicles but used to make pottery. The pottery itself is one of humanity’s earliest inventions (if you include ceramic figurines, the process dates back at least 20,000 years). But it wasn’t until about 4500 BC that potter’s wheels were definitively used in the process. Evidence of wheeled vehicles, likely drawn by oxen, dates back to 4000-3000 BC.
 
EnyoEcj.png


I'm happy to see Razib Khan does indeed have confidence in David Reich and Nick Patterson.

maybe he happen to know when this paper will finally be out ?

P.s
I now sent email to david reich
Asking when it will be published
Let us hope he will answere
 
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