Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Mycenean+Medieval Slav, is the best ancient genomes-only fit for modern Greeks. I don't know where those modern Greeks are from. I've read that Steppe-rich (supposedly Slavic) admixture is high in some parts of Greece and low in other parts.

Eurogenes; Modern-day Greeks & Italians vs Mycenaeans
Greek
Iran_ChL 0.090±0.071
Mycenaean 0.478±0.103
Slav_Bohemia 0.432±0.077
P-value 0.461783732
chisq 12.820

It's utter c***, as always. Where's the BB that would have actually impacted Italian areas? I could go on and on with other examples, but what's the point?

You can fiddle with this, choosing whatever genomes you want that will give approximately the results you're after, unless, like Kurd, you do it honestly and in a transparent manner. In this instance, that would include the various models which would give decent results.

Where on earth are your critical faculties?

The only thing worse than his stats on southern Europeans is your interpretation of them.

Yes, a lot of Italian genetics is EEF. 74% in my case, 70% for some more Northern Italians, 71% in Albanians, I'm sure Spaniards are close to that as Basques are at 70%. Greeks are way up there too. With Greeks, it seems a lot of it has been present since the Mycenaeans. Since we don't have any ancient Italian genomes except Otzi and Remedello, all of this certainty as to when or with whom it arrived is misplaced.

Whatever movements from the southeast affected Italy post Neolithic are not unique to Italy. They have to be considered in the broader context of movements into Southeastern Europe, i.e. the Balkans and Greece. Also, to some extent, in Iberia, as the J2 there might attest.

In my own case, what I do know is that I am almost 40% Western European farmer. That component is lower in the southeast of Europe, and in Anatolia, where it has been declining since the Chalcolithic. I highly doubt any movement from Anatolia after the early Bronze increased it in me. Then I'm almost 26% steppe, close to what people get in the Balkans, including their "Slavic" ancestry. We're up to 66%.

Then I'm 28% Eastern farmer. How the heck do you know when they arrived in my area given we have no ancient dna? These are the kinds of speculations which put autosomal analysis into disrepute. Now, could some of that "eastern farmer" be from such a migration, or perhaps from Greece? It's possible, but just as possible if that's the case that migration from LBK type communities or from the Balkans, or by the Celts could have done the same thing. Some of my ancestors weren't called Celt-Ligures for nothing. There is no way of knowing until we get ancient dna.

What lies are you talking about: the fact that Greece was the jewel of the ancient world? The country than no-one else could match for a long period of time? A country whose name shall remain always as the beacon of light and the cornerstone of modern Western civilization? What kind of lies are you actually referring to?

blevins13 said:

Some of info-europeans went in Greece some went in Spain, some in France, some in Italy. The once that went in Greece had the state structure of the Minionians ready so their progress was faster. Jealousy for the Greece I have none....I just can't stand their lies.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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Fire Haired14 said:

Mycenean+Medieval Slav, is the best ancient genomes-only fit for modern Greeks. I don't know where those modern Greeks are from. I've read that Steppe-rich (supposedly Slavic) admixture is high in some parts of Greece and low in other parts.

Eurogenes; Modern-day Greeks & Italians vs Mycenaeans
Greek
Iran_ChL 0.090±0.071
Mycenaean 0.478±0.103
Slav_Bohemia 0.432±0.077
P-value 0.461783732
chisq 12.820

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No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?

Fire Haired14 said:

Mycenean+Medieval Slav, is the best ancient genomes-only fit for modern Greeks. I don't know where those modern Greeks are from. I've read that Steppe-rich (supposedly Slavic) admixture is high in some parts of Greece and low in other parts.

Eurogenes; Modern-day Greeks & Italians vs Mycenaeans
Greek
Iran_ChL 0.090±0.071
Mycenaean 0.478±0.103
Slav_Bohemia 0.432±0.077
P-value 0.461783732
chisq 12.820

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Steppe ancestry in mainland Greece overall seems to follow a north-south cline (but I remember some exceptions). That doesn't look bad as a tentative model since Greeks seem to have a lot more steppe ancestry and a little more near eastern (i.e. Iran_N-heavy) ancestry compared to the Mycenaean samples we have so far. Who is Slav_Bohemia btw, is it RISE569? I'm asking because it seems to be a bit more "western" than the other early Slavic samples so it might be standing in for various sorts of northern inputs (perhaps including of the sort the Armenoi sample had in excess compared to the other Mycenaeans).

davef said:

No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?

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The paper didn't make any specific attempt at quantifying that, there were some other experiments ran by a few people (e.g. Tomenable) though. Those really depend on a number of things, especially when you don't really have proximate samples you can use. It might be because Tuscans have a bit less steppe and a bit more Anatolia_N than mainland Greeks and those Mycenaeans were very Anatolian and very low on steppe, so Tuscans need less further 'northern' ancestry. And keep in mind that the Mycenaeans are likely standing in for some similar Bronze Age Italian group here.

davef said:

No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?

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Because he wants to make Greeks and Balkan people as "Slavic" as possible. DUH.

The paper didn't arrive at the 70%, just not an amateur who is a Slavic Nationalist.

Agamemnon said:

[1] "distance%=

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Agamemnon said:

0.2408 / distance=0.002408"

Greek

Mycenaean:I9041 46.7
Ukrainian_East 27.9
Mycenaean:I9006 25.4

[1] "distance%=0.2857 / distance=0.002857"

Greek

Mycenaean:I9041 47.0
Mycenaean:I9006 24.9
Belarusian 18.1
Slav_Czech:RISE569 10.0

Reminds me of the Tuscans, who are often modeled as about 30% Germanic. Of course, it's not all "Germanic", as it isn't all "Ukrainian" necessarily for Greeks, just "more northern" ancestry.

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No, Angela, David's analysis not utter crap. You're just extremely biased. Those were best fits he could get for Greeks and Italians using available ancient genomes. He didn't choose what model to show, he let qpADM do that. David doesn't have a secret agenda to make Greeks as Slavic as possible.

Different models can give Greeks different Myceanean percentages. I'm sure some would give them 70% Mycenaean and some much less. It gets confusing when the proposed ancestors share ancestry. Overall Greeks are very similar to Mycenaeans.

davef said:

No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?

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Because he wants to prove that Greeks are half Slav, that ancient Greeks were great because they were half Polish. It's a farce.

What else can you expect from one who was a member of Skadi.

Well, Skadi has been closed down hasn't it? Or was it Stormfront? No matter, if Skadi isn't closed down, it will be, I have no doubt, along with theapricity. Now that the SPLC is on the hunt it's inevitable even if I'm ambivalent about it. For those whose real identities are known I wonder how that's going to help any legit job searches here in the US or Australia?

Angela said:

Well, Skadi has been closed down hasn't it? Or was it Stormfront? No matter, if Skadi isn't closed down, it will be, I have no doubt, along with theapricity. Now that the SPLC is on the hunt it's inevitable even if I'm ambivalent about it. For those whose real identities are known I wonder how that's going to help any legit job searches here in the US or Australia?

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Stormfront I think.


Davidski: "I don't know where the Greeks in my model are from. But they are a little more northern shifted than some of the my other Greek sets"


So, what game are we playing?

davef said:

No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?

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These were done by Gravetto-Danubian. Greeks are from Thessaloniki.

Greek
"Mycenaean" 75.55
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 15
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 3.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 1.65
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 1.6
"Unetice_EBA:I0117" 1.3
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 1.2


Italian_Tuscan
"Mycenaean" 68.75
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 16.45
"Remedello_BA" 5.25
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 3.7
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 2.25

^^^ thanks!
Angela, when I asked about the low Mycenaean score in the greek model, I too was suspecting something.
And yes, since Greeks score significant Caucasian or east med, I wouldn't be surprised if they also got some of that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture that also found its way to Italy.

Taken from your quote:
"Whatever movements from the southeast affected Italy post Neolithic are not unique to Italy. They have to be considered in the broader context of movements into Southeastern Europe, i.e. the Balkans and Greece. Also, to some extent, in Iberia, as the J2 there might attest. "

Fire Haired14 said:

No, Angela, David's analysis not utter crap. You're just extremely biased. Those were best fits he could get for Greeks and Italians using available ancient genomes. He didn't choose what model to show, he let qpADM do that. David doesn't have a secret agenda to make Greeks as Slavic as possible.

Different models can give Greeks different Myceanean percentages. I'm sure some would give them 70% Mycenaean and some much less. It gets confusing when the proposed ancestors share ancestry. Overall Greeks are very similar to Mycenaeans.

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Do you have any concept how that program works? It can only use samples you feed it, for goodness sakes'. I repeat, I don't see you applying any critical faculties whatsoever.

Are you aware that you are contradicting yourself in those two paragraphs?

As to your comments at Eurogenes, I will repeat:


Yes, a lot of Italian genetics is farmer like*. 74% in my case, 70% for some more Northern Italians, 71% and higher in Albanians, I'm sure Spaniards are close to that as Basques are at 70%. Greeks are way up there too, past me, I believe, and they would be mainland Greeks. With Greeks, it seems a lot of it has been present since the Mycenaeans. Since we don't have any ancient Italian genomes except Otzi and Remedello, all of this certainty as to when or with whom it arrived is misplaced.

Whatever movements from the southeast affected Italy post Neolithic are not unique to Italy, with the possible exception of any Etruscans who may have arrived. I think we have to consider all of this in the broader context of movements into Southeastern Europe, i.e. the Balkans and Greece and then perhaps on to Italy, and/or directly into Italy. Either or both are possible. This also applies, to some extent, to Iberia, as the J2 there might attest.

In my own case, what I do know is that I am almost 40% Western European farmer, according to the geneplaza ancient Europeans test. That component is much lower in the southeast of Europe, and in Anatolia, where it has been declining since the Chalcolithic. I doubt that any movement from Anatolia after the early Bronze increased it in me. Then, I'm almost 26% steppe, close to the 28% steppe which many people get in the Balkans, including their "Slavic" ancestry. We're up to 66%.

Then, I'm 28% "Eastern" farmer. and that "Eastern farmer" is not based on Anatolian Chalcolithic and/or Anatolian Bronze Age type samples. What's the big deal? How could that indicate it came post Bronze Age? People of British ancestry are 24% "Eastern farmer". The difference is my western farmer ancestry, not my eastern farmer ancestry.

There's no way you can know when eastern farmer ancestry arrived in my area given we have no ancient dna. These are the kinds of speculations which put autosomal analysis into disrepute. Now, could some of that "eastern farmer" be from a migration from Anatolia? It's possible, but why don't I get additional Iran Neo/Chl type ancestry? Could it be from Greece? I wouldn't be surprised if some of it came from Greece; maybe the "vine people" who went to southern Italy also went to Liguria or Toscana. It's possible, but just as possible if that's the case that migration from LBK type communities, or from the Balkans, or by the Celts could have done the same thing. Some of my ancestors weren't called Celt-Ligures for nothing. Like I said, there's a 4 point difference in eastern European farmer between me and some Central and Northwestern European people. There is no way of knowing until we get ancient dna.

ED. *Please stop calling it EEF in this context. As kurd's calculator showed, it is not just Early Neolithic farmer. It's also MN and Chalcolithic as far as western european farmers are concerned, and even LN in the eastern farmers, but no West Asian increased Chalcolithic or Bronze Age samples were included in what I am discussing.

FWIW, my additional Iran like ancestry in that calculator is lower than in some central and northwestern Europeans.

davef said:

^^^ thanks!
I wouldn't be surprised if they also got some of that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture that also found its way to Italy.

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For sure, that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture arrived into Italy from there: southern Balkans and Greece.

But now, Davidski and friends are too busy to prove that Poles migrated to Greece and turned the natives into ancient Greeks.

davef said:

^^^ thanks!
Angela, when I asked about the low Mycenaean score in the greek model, I too was suspecting something.
And yes, since Greeks score significant Caucasian or east med, I wouldn't be surprised if they also got some of that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture that also found its way to Italy.

Taken from your quote:
"Whatever movements from the southeast affected Italy post Neolithic are not unique to Italy. They have to be considered in the broader context of movements into Southeastern Europe, i.e. the Balkans and Greece. Also, to some extent, in Iberia, as the J2 there might attest. "

Click to expand...

Actually, those calculators which use "modern" clusters show that Greek populations, even those from Thessaly, have more "Caucasian" or "West Asian" depending on the cluster used, than even southern Italians, so, obviously, more than Northern Italians or even Tuscans.

In this, for example, Greeks have one point more "Caucasus" than Sicilians, although the Sicilians have two points more Southwest Asian than the Greeks (12 to 10).

The Greeks have a great deal more "Caucasus" (9 points) and more Southwest Asian (3 points) than Tuscans, and so forth.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0

In this one, Greeks have one point less West Asian than Southern Italians/Sicilians, but 4 points more than Tuscans.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Me2vweYJN2mNtnDaypabv31sy2-kSWVhNJvanIsWtJU/edit#gid=0

Now, we've come a long way since these types of calculators, but I think they are useful for these kinds of comparisons.

On some analyses, like Haak et al, the Greeks seem to have less steppe than the Tuscans, but they have some WHG (2-3 points) which the Tuscans don't have, and these are definitely the northern Greeks of Thessaly. There were virtually no mesolithic hunter-gatherers of the WHG type in Greece (or the Balkans, until you got up to the Iron Gates), so I think this is some of that "extra WHG" which may have accompanied various migrations from the north into Greece in relatively more recent times, but which didn't make their way into Italy.

Pax Augusta said:

For sure, that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture arrived into Italy from there: southern Balkans and Greece.
But now, Davidski and friends are too busy to prove that Poles migrated to Greece and turned the natives into ancient Greeks.

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Yeah, they arrived with their chariots and dragon boats. We all know the Mycenaeans were a cannibalistic tribe who chucked spears, beat their women, and lacked a formal language due to lack of prefrontal development until the master race arrived and made them "superior".
;p

Ok...Pax Augusta just revealed that a Greek from Thessaloniki can be modeled as 75 percent Mycenaean. This is a northern Greek. The 75 percent score is roughly a 32 point increase. See what Angela implied when she mentioned how easy it is to model people any way you want by submitting the right population combo (with a low closeness score to boot)?

And if his main goal was to determine the genetic makeup of modern Greeks, why was he modeling Italians? Why was he modeling non Greeks to begin with? Why did he choose not to model Albanians as well? Albanians would also score high Mycenaean by his methods; after all, isn't Albania a border country? Why were they left out?

Seriously....????

@Angela,

I do know how apADM works.

@Everyone,

David simply posted the best qpADM models for Italians and Greeks using only ancient DNA. That's it. Posters at Eurogenes showed some interest in what Myceanean's genetic makeup implies for Italian not just Greek origins which is why I think he made the post. I can't see any indications David wants to prove Myceanan's greatness came from their Steppe ancestry or that Greeks have lots of Slavic ancestors. He simply goes with the evidence.

Yeah, Myceanean's almost definitely did have some Steppe ancestry (15-20%) and that's pretty significant for PIE origins. And yes, Slavs probably have intermingled with Greeks. I think we all agree about that stuff. How does professing this make him a Polish nazi? Big deal he said stupid stuff in the past. That doesn't destroy the legitimacy of his tests.

I find it interesting how modern Greeks aren't exactly the same as Myceaneans and how modern Egyptians aren't exactly the same as ancient Egyptians. In each case, the ethnic-identity remained but foreign admixture made a significant but not overwhelming impact. Now I expect the same to be true for many ancient/modern ethnic groups.

@davef,
"why was he modeling Italians?"

Because Italians more or less overlap with Greeks in terms of "ancient" ancestry. Plus some posters thought Mycenaeans were more similar to Southern Italians than Greeks which isn't the case at all.

When I think about it because Greece and Italy are separated by ocean they shouldn't be similar genetically. It's a coincidence. It's a coincidence the same groups migrated into each place and people in both places ended up having a similar amount of ancestry from each group. It's an even weirder councidence how Askenazi Jews became "similar" to Southern Italians.