Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Concerning early neolithic I1 in the Balkans, may I refer you to Maciamo's I1 page :



What follows on said page is also of interest. I suggest you guys re-read it.

I was aware of Maciamo's; I was just trying to know if something new was occurred he was not aware of, concerning old Y-I1.
 
What does I-M253 in Balkans are telling us? Absolutely nothing. That's typical of large-scale survey, they detect an snp, M253 for the exemple and nothing else. Exactly the same things are happening in Middle-East or Anatolia about R1b or R1a.

Obviously I-M253* would not been found in any modern population. And all descendants, I1a, I1b, I1c... are likely from Scandinavia.
 
What does I-M253 in Balkans are telling us? Absolutely nothing. That's typical of large-scale survey, they detect an snp, M253 for the exemple and nothing else. Exactly the same things are happening in Middle-East or Anatolia about R1b or R1a.

Obviously I-M253* would not been found in any modern population. And all descendants, I1a, I1b, I1c... are likely from Scandinavia.


the one that found extraordinary in this population,
cause we speak about a tribe with 3-4 major clans,

WAS THAT THEY FOUND A COMBO OF Y-DNA and mtDNA Unigue,
Tottaly Euroepan palaiolithic, while other of their Autosomals are not far from area their live.
a tribe tottally runaway, but not isolated in mountains heigth.

Nothing more, They are considered the older pop in Balkans,
and No I can not find something deeper analysis,
 
the one that found extraordinary in this population,
cause we speak about a tribe with 3-4 major clans,

WAS THAT THEY FOUND A COMBO OF Y-DNA and mtDNA Unigue,
Tottaly Euroepan palaiolithic, while other of their Autosomals are not far from area their live.
a tribe tottally runaway, but not isolated in mountains heigth.

Nothing more, They are considered the older pop in Balkans,
and No I can not find something deeper analysis,

Dude... there is no living I1*. And the TMRCA of I1( I1a, I1b, I1c ) is way younger than Paleolithic. And we have Mesolithic dna from Balkans without y-dna I1.
 
Dude... there is no living I1*. And the TMRCA of I1( I1a, I1b, I1c ) is way younger than Paleolithic. And we have Mesolithic dna from Balkans without y-dna I1.

then? when it entered?
and why this population as Pomaks seems to be millenium in S Balkans,
 
The I1 is far ancient palaiolithic in Greece, it is the oldest mark

Certain tribes carry it and they are found as more than 70% Palaiolithic

I1 is considered the most ancient mark in Greece

the tribes that carry it are compared with Sardinians,
there was a big search about them,

Sarakatsans for example which are heavily I1 are compared with Sardinians
and are far ancinets than Minoans, Myceneans and Greeks.

I1 populations of Greece, Bulgaria and Slavomakedonia are the oldest population of Balkans

Sarakatsani Greeks don't carry I1 Y-DNA. At least there haven't been any officially published Y-DNA studies for Sarakatsani that i am aware of. Although i have personally contacted Konstantinos Triantafyllidis (famous geneticist in Greece) and has confirmed to me that based on his long studies Sarakatsani mainly belong to mtDNA haplogroup H and then to mtDNA haplogroups J and T. No mention of Y-DNA though. What are your sources? Furthermore, Sarakatsani's blood group (AB0) analysis, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02447575, shows that their frequencies are no different from the rest of the Greeks, therefore how can they be more ancient than Minoans, Mycenaeans, and Greeks? Forget the fact that Mycenaeans are Greeks and you seem to differentiate between them.
 
it is from old studies.
Sarakatsans carry the most I1 Ydna and their HLA and PC show palaiolithic origin
They are with Sardinians and Basques a special group of search

if you want I can give you links in Greek,

They are the oldest population in Aimos peninsula,
that is a fact,
and their primary YDNA is I1 in the most clear families.
they exist in Greece Bulgaria SlavoMakedonia Albania
They are believed they are connected with Ancient Makedonian Locroi tribes


The only English I found is this

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tsans_I_Blood_groups_and_enzyme_polymorphisms

I asked you again above about the source of I1 Y-DNA being high in Sarakatsani Greeks supposedly. Here i only want to correct you in regards to the Locrians, which were an ancient Greek tribe that inhabited the region of Locris in Central Greece, around Parnassus, not ancient Macedon. Per Aris Poulianos (a well known Greek anthropologist), the Sarakatsani are indeed anthropologically a very conservative Balkan population of Greek origin, but you seem to be confusing a lot of stuff beginning with their Y-DNA haplogroups which are not published anywhere yet.
 
it seems you did not read the study,
we speak about the most ancient population of Balkans, the oldest in fact
and has in Y-DNA a I1, which compining the rest, makes it a unigue race/group.

so either Gothic, either no-gothic, has no meaning,
they lived at the limits of Makedonian kingdom.

You seem to have a fetish with Macedon mate. Sarakatsani originated from the Agrafa region of Central Greece. During the 18th and the 19th centuries, they began migrating to Boeotia, Achaea, Epirus, Macedon, and Thrace. But they didn't originate from these regions, they first began from Agrafa.
 
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Angela, i am sure that if we had more samples from southern Greece, Peloponnesus for example, they would also overlap with the Mycenaean samples as presented on the PCA for the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews. What's your thoughts on this? The Greek samples are not very varied to give an accurate picture, since most come from Thessaloniki (Macedon) and Crete. It is a known fact that Sicilians are very close to Peloponnesian Greeks. Just as an example have a look at this PCA taken from the "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718" study, which shows the Peloponnesian Greeks overlapping with the Sicilians.

ejhg201718f2.jpg


Postscript: I didn't read all of the thread, but i did go through many pages. Don't know whether you already gave an answer to this.
 
I was in Greece very recently and did not see a single blonde. What broadly Nordid features (basically, light pigmentation) I did see were pretty much always of the Osteuropid type, with the occasional light Armenoid type (there isn't a word for this, but it's most prevalent among Ashkenazim, so I'll call it Ashkenazid).

Also, check here: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/07/a-corded-ware-related-proto-greek-from.html

Care to address the rest of my points? Or not...

You might as well call it Greek type. Which after all might explain a lot based on what i know about Jews and Ashkenazim in particular. And since you seem to like YouTube videos, here are a couple done by an Ashkenazi, namely Simcha Jacobovici, relating the Biblical tribe of Dan to the Danaans (another name for Mycenaeans), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuqumwTKWUE, as well as this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XObk07uabLI. He somewhat tried to make them appear Middle Eastern or Semitic in origin, but now we now, they were pretty much indigenous in the area of the Aegean, therefore the influence must have been towards the Ashkenazim, not the other way around. It's not just the tribe of Dan which had an Aegean origin. The Philistines did as well, as this presentation by Aren Maeir (another Ashkenazi), namely "New Perspectives on the Philistines in Light Recent Excavations at Tell Es-Safi/Gath", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJC8OAhm1f4 seems to validate. Forget, all the Hellenistic colonists who flooded the Levant after the conquests of Alexander the Great.

And please don't take all these the wrong way. Jews seem to have interacted with Greeks for a lot of time. There is also an interesting book, don't know whether you are aware of it, that goes into the vast similarities between Hebrew and Greek. The title is "Hebrew Is Greek", and you can find it for free here, https://archive.org/details/Hebrew.is.Greek, because hard copies are exhausted for decades now. It is written by a Hebrew scholar named Joseph Yahuda, and published in 1982.

The above genetic study seems to validate a lot of the above.
 
You seem to have a fetish with Macedon mate. Sarakatsani originated from the Agrafa region of Central Greece. During the 18th and the 19th centuries, they began migrating to Boeotia, Achaea, Epirus, Macedon, and Thrace. But they didn't originate from these regions, they first began from Agrafa.

No

Saraktsani have 2 primary homelands

one is the W Rodope mountains
and the second is the Uper Makedonia, around N epirus, and today Fyrom,

they moved to Agrafa mountains pushed by Albanians, before ALi-Pasha,
Both Agrafa and Aetoacarcanian Sarakatsans came from the W Core

14 % of today Fyrom, around Monasteri are Sarakatsan origin.

rather the oposite road, from Makedonia And Epirus to Agrafa, than from Agrafa to Makedonia

and since you know and possibly read Triantaphilidis work on them
search except their ABO their PC's,
they seem Heavier on european Palaiolithic, and rather miss some Helladic Neolithic marks,
possibly a non Thessalian population, nearby sesklo/dimini.
 
No

Saraktsani have 2 primary homelands

one is the W Rodope mountains
and the second is the Uper Makedonia, around N epirus, and today Fyrom,

they moved to Agrafa mountains pushed by Albanians, before ALi-Pasha
Both Agrafa and Aetoacarcanian Sarakatsans came from the W Core

14 % of today Fyrom, around Monasteri are Sarakatsan origin.

rather the oposite road, from Makedonia to Agrafa, than from Agrafa to Makedonia

Mate, with all due respect, as a fellow Greek, you don't know what you write about. Sarakatsani originate from the region of Agrafa. Their original name was Sakaressiani, which became Sakaretsiani, and then Sarakatsiani. There is also the Turkish hypothesis for the name, through Karakatsiani, although both of these are the most realistic among the dozens of others who lack merit. In any case, i am first and foremost writing from the scope of the Sarakatsani themselves, when i stress their Agrafa origin. It's what they all have been saying since they began their migrations. Also, interestingly their musical traditions are most kin to the musical traditions of the broader region of Agrafa, and not with the regions they migrated to, such as Epirus, Macedon, Thrace, Achaea, etc..

Last and foremost, i asked you for evidence in regards to this aforementioned I1 Y-DNA haplogroup that you associate with the Sarakatsani. Do you have anything in relation to that?
 
Mate, with all due respect, as a fellow Greek, you don't know what you write about. Sarakatsani originate from the region of Agrafa. Their original name was Sakaressiani, which became Sakaretsiani, and then Sarakatsiani. There is also the Turkish hypothesis for the name, through Karakatsiani, although both of these are the most realistic among the dozens of others who lack merit. In any case, i am first and foremost writing from the scope of the Sarakatsani themselves, when i stress their Agrafa origin. It's what they all have been saying since they began their migrations. Also, interestingly their musical traditions are most kin to the musical traditions of the broader region of Agrafa, and not with the regions they migrated to, such as Epirus, Macedon, Thrace, Achaea, etc..

Last and foremost, i asked you for evidence in regards to this aforementioned I1 Y-DNA haplogroup that you associate with the Sarakatsani. Do you have anything in relation to that?

Dude there is no chance Sarakatsani to originated at Agrafa or Aetoacarnania,
look their PC's, they possibly have nothing to do with Thessaly and Neolithic Helladic marks,
rather with SE of Ohrid lake, where their genetics flourish,

As for their I1, no official source,
Only know that was detected in a Sarakatsan from Perlepe Bitola Monasteri origin,
when they made my DNA search, around 2004-6. at AUth,
 
Dude there is no chance Sarakatsani to originated at Agrafa or Aetoacarnania,
look their PC's, they possibly have nothing to do with Thessaly and Neolithic Helladic marks,
rather with SE of Ohrid lake, where their genetics flourish,

As for their I1, no official source,
Only know that was detected in a Sarakatsan from Perlepe Bitola Monasteri origin,
when they made my DNA search, around 2004-6. at AUth,

What PCAs mate? Share because i am not aware of any that exists for actual Sarakatsani, truly. How is it that there is no chance to originate from Agrafa? Do you know how much i have studied the Sarakatsani? At least 5 books from cover to cover, and dozens of private discussions with actual Sarakatsani from all over. I have even discussed with the Sarakatsani of Bulgaria, which are actually part of the Thracian branch and were simply trapped there after the Balkan wars and the introduction of the Greek/Bulgarian borders. You seem to be jumping to conclusions very prematurely based on no evidence. Sarakatsani, genetically have only been studied by Konstantinos Triantafyllidis, and still not extensively, yet you write of PCAs, Y-DNA, and genetics in general. A I1 Y-DNA in a single individual from Monastiri, even if true, is not a reason to be jumping to conclusions about the Sarakatsani as a whole like you did in many of your previous comments in this thread. By the way, where are you from? You seem to be taking this very personally and i am afraid it might be as a result of localism.
 
I will go in private,

no need to expand in public.
 
Angela, i am sure that if we had more samples from southern Greece, Peloponnesus for example, they would also overlap with the Mycenaean samples as presented on the PCA for the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews. What's your thoughts on this? The Greek samples are not very varied to give an accurate picture, since most come from Thessaloniki (Macedon) and Crete. It is a known fact that Sicilians are very close to Peloponnesian Greeks. Just as an example have a look at this PCA taken from the "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718" study, which shows the Peloponnesian Greeks overlapping with the Sicilians.

ejhg201718f2.jpg


Postscript: I didn't read all of the thread, but i did go through many pages. Don't know whether you already gave an answer to this.

Well, if I didn't do it here I did it elsewhere.

I've said for years that many of the analyses of the "Greeks", particularly the earlier ones, are somewhat faulty because the academics for years only used the Thessaly samples, which plot pretty close to Tuscans, just south east of them, later added to by samples from Crete.

I know I've seen what are called "Central Greek" samples, which might perhaps include the Peloponnese? However, I can't recall any academic paper which specifically compared them to ancient Greeks.

If someone has that information, please be helpful and chime in with the links.

Someone with 100% Peloponnese ancestry should do mytrueancestry, especially someone from the more southern parts, and see how close they come to Minoans and Mycenaeans, or use something like the other ancient calculators on line. Some southern Italians have done it and certainly get hits.

Of course, what we really need to see are academic papers do the comparisons.

Fwiw.

These are some of my husband's results:

Closest ancient population:
hJ8xvBp.png



His closest "Hellenic Roman" sample is closest to modern people from one of the Greek islands, and he shares an actual IBD segment with a Mycenaean.

Modern populations:

1Ps8UTD.png


Since his Calabrian sides all come from areas literally a few kilometers from Greek ruins, I'm not at all surprised.
 
Well, if I didn't do it here I did it elsewhere.

I've said for years that many of the analyses of the "Greeks", particularly the earlier ones, are somewhat faulty because the academics for years only used the Thessaly samples, which plot pretty close to Tuscans, just south east of them, later added to by samples from Crete.

I know I've seen what are called "Central Greek" samples, which might perhaps include the Peloponnese? However, I can't recall any academic paper which specifically compared them to ancient Greeks.

If someone has that information, please be helpful and chime in with the links.

Someone with 100% Peloponnese ancestry should do mytrueancestry, especially someone from the more southern parts, and see how close they come to Minoans and Mycenaeans, or use something like the other ancient calculators on line. Some southern Italians have done it and certainly get hits.

Of course, what we really need to see are academic papers do the comparisons.

Fwiw.

These are some of my husband's results:

Closest ancient population:
hJ8xvBp.png



His closest "Hellenic Roman" sample is closest to modern people from one of the Greek islands, and he shares an actual IBD segment with a Mycenaean.

Modern populations:

1Ps8UTD.png


Since his Calabrian sides all come from areas literally a few kilometers from Greek ruins, I'm not at all surprised.

Very nice, thanks for your input. I personally know a few people who are from Mani and Messenia, i will try and ask them to take a test and see what we can extract from it. But yeah, it seems strange to me they didn't also include modern Peloponnesian samples in the study. I am sure they will be much closer than Greeks from Thessaloniki. As for "Central Greek" samples, i highly doubt it refers to Peloponnesus. When we say Central Greece we mainly refer to Boeotia and Aetolia-Acarnania, which is the land north of Peoloponnesus and below Thessaly.
 
Exactly!!! It's totally wrong to say all or even most of mainland Greece is like the Thessaly samples. If you take a look at the new Roman PCA posted 2 days ago you'll find mainland Greeks plotting perfectly with southern Italians (they're hard to see, they're the diamonds with yellow edges).
 
Exactly!!! It's totally wrong to say all or even most of mainland Greece is like the Thessaly samples. If you take a look at the new Roman PCA posted 2 days ago you'll find mainland Greeks plotting perfectly with southern Italians (they're hard to see, they're the diamonds with yellow edges).
Can you share this new Roman PCA? Which thread was it posted in? By the way i totally agree.
 

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