Northener
Elite member
- Messages
- 2,008
- Reaction score
- 522
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Groningen
- Ethnic group
- NW Euro
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E1b1b/ E-V22
Thanks King John!
I can't wait to get this 'Saxon paper samples' in G25 and other analysis instruments, especially because it contains more than 20 early middle age samples of my hometown Groningen. So it reveals not only things about the English ancestry, also about the North Dutch!
What I expect to see in this respect is this. Julius Caesar coined Germani for the right side of the Rhine. Tacitus already stated it loud and clear, the name Germani was artificial and forced up on the tribes above the Rhine. The ones who assimilated into the Roman empire had no choice but to accept this label. At the end the Roman period, the Roman army had loads of Germani foederati. But the Romans left the scene and there was a severe population decline in the Dutch area. Tribes like the old Frisii even disappeared from the archeological radar.
And there was another big factor! From the Danish/North German "bottleneck" a bunch of pirates- to be known as Saxons- came in, and ruled the scene around the North Sea. The old Germani- between Rhine and Weser- gathered around the flag of the "free Franks" under their warlords like "rex foederatus" Childeric they partly moved away SW wards were Childeric became dux Belgica secundus. His son Clovis became the first king of the Franks.
So in fact the Saxon invaders and the Franks are not to be lumped together under the Germani label (no genetic one size fits all). They preferred their own label derived from PIE *teuta and Proto-Germanic *theudō, like Dutch, Deutsch, or Teuton, and means something like tribe or folk. The (hated) label German(i) became in disuse until the early modern period. The Saxons spoke also different. *theudo corresponds to the Old English adjective þeodisc "belonging to the people," which was used especially of the common language of Germanic people (as opposed to Latin), a derivative of the Old English noun þeod "people, race, nation." The language name is first attested in Latin as theodice (786 C.E.) in correspondence between Charlemagne's court and the Pope, in reference to a synodical conference in Mercia; thus it refers to Old English. Its first use in reference to a German language (as opposed to a Germanic one) is two years later. That's the difference between old English/ old Frisian on he one hand and old Frankish (that was early Latinised) on the other.
In genetic sense this means that the Saxon factor- called CNE in the paper- will be prevalent (80-90%) in the outmost North Dutch area of Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe (the paper includes samples of Mildum Friesland and Groningen). But who knows....can't wait to see the near analysis of the samples.
I can't wait to get this 'Saxon paper samples' in G25 and other analysis instruments, especially because it contains more than 20 early middle age samples of my hometown Groningen. So it reveals not only things about the English ancestry, also about the North Dutch!
What I expect to see in this respect is this. Julius Caesar coined Germani for the right side of the Rhine. Tacitus already stated it loud and clear, the name Germani was artificial and forced up on the tribes above the Rhine. The ones who assimilated into the Roman empire had no choice but to accept this label. At the end the Roman period, the Roman army had loads of Germani foederati. But the Romans left the scene and there was a severe population decline in the Dutch area. Tribes like the old Frisii even disappeared from the archeological radar.
And there was another big factor! From the Danish/North German "bottleneck" a bunch of pirates- to be known as Saxons- came in, and ruled the scene around the North Sea. The old Germani- between Rhine and Weser- gathered around the flag of the "free Franks" under their warlords like "rex foederatus" Childeric they partly moved away SW wards were Childeric became dux Belgica secundus. His son Clovis became the first king of the Franks.
So in fact the Saxon invaders and the Franks are not to be lumped together under the Germani label (no genetic one size fits all). They preferred their own label derived from PIE *teuta and Proto-Germanic *theudō, like Dutch, Deutsch, or Teuton, and means something like tribe or folk. The (hated) label German(i) became in disuse until the early modern period. The Saxons spoke also different. *theudo corresponds to the Old English adjective þeodisc "belonging to the people," which was used especially of the common language of Germanic people (as opposed to Latin), a derivative of the Old English noun þeod "people, race, nation." The language name is first attested in Latin as theodice (786 C.E.) in correspondence between Charlemagne's court and the Pope, in reference to a synodical conference in Mercia; thus it refers to Old English. Its first use in reference to a German language (as opposed to a Germanic one) is two years later. That's the difference between old English/ old Frisian on he one hand and old Frankish (that was early Latinised) on the other.
In genetic sense this means that the Saxon factor- called CNE in the paper- will be prevalent (80-90%) in the outmost North Dutch area of Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe (the paper includes samples of Mildum Friesland and Groningen). But who knows....can't wait to see the near analysis of the samples.
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