Interesting coincidence between R1b and high GDP

I've been reflecting on the R1b/Chad orientation and have been reviewing the financial status of the peoples in Africa.

The most economically advanced sub Sahara nation seems to be South Africa which is interesting because with the Boer influence-- this region would have received a decent influx of hg. I (and most probable I1). I can't think of an area in sub Sahara Africa that would have a higher percentage of hg. I1 in the population than South Africa.

Also interesting to note: historically here in the U.S. the North has been considered the economic powerhouse compared to the Southern states. The band of high hg. I1 in the U.S. runs from Pennsylvania to Ohio, then to Indiana and Minnesota, and westward into Montana. All northern states. The South is much heavier in R1b from the British Isles (English, Scotch-Irish, Welsh). Not much concentration of hg I1 in the Southern U.S. that I can find.

So maybe the link between hg I1 and economic success is a valid one. There certainly seems to be a correlation (Northern Europe, South Africa, Northern U.S.).

I also would link it with more orderly societies, which might go hand in hand with capitalistic production system, therefore high GDP. Most orderly society in Asia is Japane. They lead Asia in GDP per capita for more than last 100 years, since they embraced Western technology. There is no hg I in Japanese, so I guess, this trace of character must be in autosomal DNA.
 
I also would link it with more orderly societies, which might go hand in hand with capitalistic production system, therefore high GDP. Most orderly society in Asia is Japane. They lead Asia in GDP per capita for more than last 100 years, since they embraced Western technology. There is no hg I in Japanese, so I guess, this trace of character must be in autosomal DNA.

Maybe, but this thread concerns a possible y-DNA link. "Interesting coincidence between R1b and high GDP" is the title. Now Lebrok (my R1b membered friend), why didn't you make your autosomal claim much earlier-- before I pointed out the success of hg I1 societies?

Regarding Japan... they also have a compelling y-DNA proportional mix, but with hg's D and O instead of I and R.
 
I also would link it with more orderly societies, which might go hand in hand with capitalistic production system, therefore high GDP. Most orderly society in Asia is Japane. They lead Asia in GDP per capita for more than last 100 years, since they embraced Western technology. There is no hg I in Japanese, so I guess, this trace of character must be in autosomal DNA.

A link between R1b and economic productivity could be either:

1) caused by the Y chromosome itself ; the masculine traits expressed by the genes on the Y chromosomes might lead to increased ambition, industriousness, desire to heighten one's social standing, or any other male motivation to make money.

2) caused by autosomal genes that were spread by R1b people at one point in history. In that case the correlation would only apply to the subclades of R1b downstream of the original population that acquired and spread the beneficial mutations outside the Y chromosome. Considering that the correlation seems to apply to all Europe, and since European R1b (downstream of M269) expanded relatively recently (Bronze Age) by evolutionary standards.

Either way, such beneficial mutations, if they exist, would provide one more explanation on the phenomenal success of R1b in replacing other male lineages in Europe.


If I were to choose, I am inclined to to say that such a mutation would be more likely to exist in the Y chromosome because:

a) it is the only chromosome that differentiate male from female behaviour, and traits such as ambition, money-earning, pride, social status, etc. are all distinctively male traits.

b) A mutation on the Y chromosome provides a more potent case in favour of the tremendous expansion of R1b

c) Some or all of the potentially beneficial mutations on the R1b Y-chromosome might also be found in other haplogroups close to R1b in the phylogenetic tree. This of course includes R1a (whose members had at least as much success in their Bronze Age expansion), but also haplogroups O and Q, who were both extremely successful in replacing other haplogroups in East Asia and the Americas respectively.

Therefore, the economic success of the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese may stem from the same Y-chromosomal mutations of those of R1a and R1b carriers.


As for I1, its strategy may be slightly different from haplogroup O, Q and R, but seems to have been particularly effective in two periods of history: the early Middle Ages and the contemporary period (from the 20th century). Interestingly, this also corresponds to the two "golden ages" of haplogroup J1 (early medieval Arabic expansion, and the recent enrichment of the Arabian peninsula).

If Y-DNA indeed influences male behaviour (as it should), all haplogroups surely have a "strategy", a sort of extended phenotype that would guide their behaviour and condition their success based on their environment. That may be why some haplogroups prosper more in some environments and historical/economical circumstances than others.
 
A link between R1b and economic productivity could be either:

1) caused by the Y chromosome itself ; the masculine traits expressed by the genes on the Y chromosomes might lead to increased ambition, industriousness, desire to heighten one's social standing, or any other male motivation to make money.

2) caused by autosomal genes that were spread by R1b people at one point in history. In that case the correlation would only apply to the subclades of R1b downstream of the original population that acquired and spread the beneficial mutations outside the Y chromosome. Considering that the correlation seems to apply to all Europe, and since European R1b (downstream of M269) expanded relatively recently (Bronze Age) by evolutionary standards.

Either way, such beneficial mutations, if they exist, would provide one more explanation on the phenomenal success of R1b in replacing other male lineages in Europe.


If I were to choose, I am inclined to to say that such a mutation would be more likely to exist in the Y chromosome because:

a) it is the only chromosome that differentiate male from female behaviour, and traits such as ambition, money-earning, pride, social status, etc. are all distinctively male traits.

b) A mutation on the Y chromosome provides a more potent case in favour of the tremendous expansion of R1b

c) Some or all of the potentially beneficial mutations on the R1b Y-chromosome might also be found in other haplogroups close to R1b in the phylogenetic tree. This of course includes R1a (whose members had at least as much success in their Bronze Age expansion), but also haplogroups O and Q, who were both extremely successful in replacing other haplogroups in East Asia and the Americas respectively.

Therefore, the economic success of the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese may stem from the same Y-chromosomal mutations of those of R1a and R1b carriers.


As for I1, its strategy may be slightly different from haplogroup O, Q and R, but seems to have been particularly effective in two periods of history: the early Middle Ages and the contemporary period (from the 20th century). Interestingly, this also corresponds to the two "golden ages" of haplogroup J1 (early medieval Arabic expansion, and the recent enrichment of the Arabian peninsula).

If Y-DNA indeed influences male behaviour (as it should), all haplogroups surely have a "strategy", a sort of extended phenotype that would guide their behaviour and condition their success based on their environment. That may be why some haplogroups prosper more in some environments and historical/economical circumstances than others.

Ah, the calavry has arrived!

Maciamo, you seem to be glossing over the entire R1b branch found in Chad. I1 does not have a corresponding geographical chink in the Gross Domestic Product armor, but let's not this minor detail halt an interesting debate.

I've been brutally honest in assessing the negative characteristics of hg. I and I1 in the past. Not only have I discussed increased levels of autism and other psychological disorders (in my opinion brought on by an earlier onset of puberty-- or a more efficient testosterone uptake system), I've also addressed the fact that hg. I members will most likely show up with larger than expected percentages in the penal system (again linked to a rise in testosterone). This "T factor" will prove an enormous advantage to those who are able to harness it... and these individuals will be found to be more likely running corporations and leading sports teams.

Now that I've pointed out my own group's flaws, I feel more comfortable mentioning some of my R1b observations. It is my humble opinion that R1b's success comes not from an over abundance of masculine traits that Maciamo boasts about, but more from a lack thereof. R1b's reduced male hormonal levels would foster a sense of cooperation which is key to business endeavors and really anything else involving a group effort (counterintuitively even war efforts involving sizable populations).

This next statement is going to be controversial, but I predict we will find an increased level of bisexuality... and even homosexuality... associated with the R1b lines. This would tie back to the testosterone factor mentioned earlier.

Returning to my bee analogy-- R1b individuals would have had to develop systems and strategies to deal with the larger and more powerful hg. I members. It may be helpful to think of the hg. I population as bumblebees and R1b as more numerous (and pound for pound probably more industrious) honey bees.

And of most import, an efficient and layered communication network also assisted R1b in their population gains.
 
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Ah, the calavry has arrived!

Maciamo, you seem to be glossing over the entire R1b branch found in Chad. I1 does not have a corresponding geographical chink in the Gross Domestic Product armor, but let's not this minor detail halt an interesting debate.

It is irrelevant. How could a desert country with so few resources as Chad, which furthermore was isolated from the development of civilizations since ancient times, have become rich ? That is part of the historical circumstances I noted above.

A better example would have been Ireland, which is the country with the highest percentage of R1b in the world, and yet was for most of written history was one of the poorest (sometimes the poorest) country in Europe. However, given the right opportunity to develop since the 2nd half of the 20th century, it has quickly become one of the richest European countries.


I've been brutally honest in assessing the negative characteristics of hg. I and I1 in the past. Not only have I discussed increased levels of autism and other psychological disorders (in my opinion brought on by an earlier onset of puberty-- or a more efficient testosterone uptake system), I've also addressed the fact that hg. I members will most likely show up with larger than expected percentages in the penal system (again linked to a rise in testosterone). This "T factor" will prove an enormous advantage to those who are able to harness it... and these individuals will be found to be more likely running corporations and leading sports teams.

Is there any study that found a higher rate of autism among carriers of hg I ? If you merely base your assumption based on Scandinavian ancestry it is flawed logic since all Scandinavian countries have more hg R1 than I1.

Now that I've pointed out my own group's flaws, I feel more comfortable mentioning some of my R1b observations. It is my humble opinion that R1b's success comes not from an over abundance of masculine traits that Maciamo boasts about, but more from a lack thereof.

You have completely misunderstood me. I didn't talk say that R1b men had an over abundance of masculine traits. There are dozens of masculine traits, but R1b men somehow seem to display more of some traits associated with economic success (ambition, industriousness, individualism, entrepreneurship), while other haplogroups display other traits.

I have long noted that region with high percentages of haplogroup I1 or J tend to be particularly gifted tradespeople and maritime explorer (Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Arabs). They also tend to care more about nurturing good business relationships and are gifted negotiators.

I have posted several years ago about E1b1b men being apparently more aggressive and authoritarian on average, and attaching a lot of importance to enjoying respect from other people. This observation was based on North Africans, South Italians and Albanians, but now that I know that both Napoleon and Hitler were E1b1b, it makes sense for them too.


R1b's reduced male hormonal levels would foster a sense of cooperation which is key to business endeavors and really anything else involving a group effort (counterintuitively even war efforts involving sizable populations).

I disagree for two reasons :

1) A study on Pakistani men (Behav et al., 2009) found evidence that members of haplogroup R have higher aggression levels than members of other (South Asian) haplogroups.

2) If there is one trait that has always characterised R1b societies from ancient times to present, it is individualism (see map). Celtic societies in particular have always shown a distinct lack of cooperation among their members. The default "ancestral" state of humanity is collectivism. Individualism is most prevalent in societies with high R1b levels.

In fact, ancient and modern Celtic societies, which had/have a very high percentage of R1b, tended to be too disorganised to be economically efficient, due to their exacerbated individualism. It is thanks to the Roman and Germanic cultures that organisation was brought into Celtic societies that permitted them to prosper. The richest regions in Europe are characteristically those where Celtic and Germanic or Latin peoples and cultures have converged: northern Italy, Switzerland, Austria, southern and western Germany, eastern France, the Benelux, Britain, Ireland and Norway (which has a lot of Celtic R1b-L21 imported by the Vikings from Ireland and Scotland).


This next statement is going to be controversial, but I predict we will find an increased level of bisexuality... and even homosexuality... associated with the R1b lines. This would tie back to the testosterone factor mentioned earlier.

Historically, bisexuality and homosexuality seem to have been more prevalent in countries such as Greece and Portugal, where Y-haplogroups are particularly heterogeneous. Anyway, I think that homosexuality depends more on mothers than fathers since it is the mother's hormonal levels during pregnancy that affects the masculinisation or feminisation of the brain during the foetus's development.
 
It is irrelevant. How could a desert country with so few resources as Chad, which furthermore was isolated from the development of civilizations since ancient times, have become rich ? That is part of the historical circumstances I noted above...

Please refer to the transformation of South Africa after the Boers arrived.

I recently commented on a genetic study involving men from Pakistan that had LOWER testosterone levels than men from other groups and I postulated that reduced Pakistanii stature correlated to these lower levels. I'm too lazy to locate and site right now-- maybe later.
 
Please refer to the transformation of South Africa after the Boers arrived.

I recently commented on a genetic study involving men from Pakistan that had LOWER testosterone levels than men from other groups and I postulated that reduced Pakistanii stature correlated to these lower levels. I'm too lazy to locate and site right now-- maybe later.
I assume this is the study you are reffering to NW

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12608929
 
Thank you Anthro. Yes that was the study.
 
Please refer to the transformation of South Africa after the Boers arrived.

South Africa is one of the richest countries on Earth in terms of natural resources, and a big part of the country has an ideal Mediterranean climate.

I recently commented on a genetic study involving men from Pakistan that had LOWER testosterone levels than men from other groups and I postulated that reduced Pakistanii stature correlated to these lower levels. I'm too lazy to locate and site right now-- maybe later.

Overall it doesn't mean anything if Pakistani have lower testosterone than Europeans. Did the study compare by Y-haplogroup carriers ? It could well be than the Pakistani average is lower because of the other haplogroups than R1a. It's also weird to categorise all Europeans together when there is so much ethnic and Y-DNA diversity.
 
This study is very intriguing, but it is very hard to conclude anything in regards to HGs.
 
South Africa is one of the richest countries on Earth in terms of natural resources, and a big part of the country has an ideal Mediterranean climate.

True, but why did it take the Boer's "invasion" to start developing the economy? By the way, in South Africa and surrounding areas the white families that have been freshly removed from their farms are now being invited back because the crops aren't being harvested correctly.

Regarding Chad, I see tremoundous development opportunities there. Maybe a group of hg. I1 members should start an outpost and show our R1b cousins how it's done.

P.S. I'm an I1 bumble bee guys, it's going to take at least seven more of you honey bees to even make a dent in my arguments. :)
 
Here's what I've come up with for Chad in about 20 minutes:

1. Ease horrible water shortages with reservoir system to take advantage of the wet season. Yes, this can be started with simple pick and shovel, and later heavy equipment can assist with the digging. A long term goal might be to deep Lake Chad in a few strategic places.

2. Needs more trees. Strengthen existing "green wall" (which is a fantastic idea) with far greater density than what is there currently. As the reservoirs come on line, the wall can be further expanded.

3. Concentrate on drought tolerant legumes which should be able to hold up in wetter areas. Experiment with sugar cane in marshy areas because 12 degree latitude would enable three or even four crop cycles per year.

4. I won't address my opinioins on the World Bank entering this area. You know how I feel about bankers.

5. Locate mineral deposits that are almost certain to be in Northern mountains. Link North to South with primitive rail.

P.S. After watching a video on Chad's green wall, I noticed the trees didn't have any mulch at the base. Those trees need mulch-- a nice organic loam would be best... but with intense solar/desert conditions scraps of carpet work great. They shade and protect the soil while conserving water usage. Old newspaper can be placed under the carpet for additional buffer. I've seen this system effectively employed in the dry Western U.S.
 
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No mention of probably the most entrepreneurial and industrious people ever. I.e. the Jews.

What's up with that?
 
The thread revolved around specific y-DNA haplogroups and not religions. Jews are a combo of several different y-DNA lines including J1, E, G, R1a, etc.

But you are correct in pointing out their economic successes. Interestingly, the Mormons surpass even the Jewish people pound for pound in terms of net worth.

P.S. Another idea on helping residents of Chad (where the average lifespan is a frighteningly short 47 years) would be to incorporate ceramic water filtration systems. This could be done on a micro-level (each family has one) and this would cut down on water borne illness and conserve trees because boiling water wouldn't be neccessary anymore. Each ceramic filter can be cleaned (light scrubbing by hand) and reused hundreds if not thousands of times.

I've read somewhere these filters are now being used in South Asia (Vietnam maybe?) and these are basically clay flower pots. Very simple, very effective.
 
If my theory on R1b members having naturally lower levels of testosterone (or having somehow less efficient testosterone uptake systems) proves accurate... this would give the R1b fellows an amazing advantage in modern society. Let's flesh this out:

Women obviously have lower testosterone levels than men (not counting extreme outliers) and the fairer sex is usually considered more socially aware/socially attuned/socially active than their male counterpart. Females score higher on most communication tests (especially non-verbal facial recognition patterns) and most girls/ladies pick up new languages faster than men do. In short, having a lower T level imparts an enormous social advantage which pays dividends in MODERN society.

So this lower testosterone concept would explain R1b's current European population advantage more than any other theory I've chewed over (as well as the "royal haplogroup" association mentioned in other threads)... R1b would have better interactive skills, would be more persuasive, and could function well in leadership positions because they aren't saddled with a high testosterone level which impedes sociability.

Even if the difference in T levels between an R1b member and say a hg. I member averaged five percentage points-- the cumulative effect would be very noticeable.

Let's get the lab coats to start testing this theory!

**EDIT** Um excuse me. Might I suggest that scientists involved in the field of genetics begin to study T counts as they correspond to various paternal haplogroups?

(must mind manners, me no caveman no more) :)
 
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The thread revolved around specific y-DNA haplogroups and not religions. Jews are a combo of several different y-DNA lines including J1, E, G, R1a, etc.

But you are correct in pointing out their economic successes. Interestingly, the Mormons surpass even the Jewish people pound for pound in terms of net worth.

P.S. Another idea on helping residents of Chad (where the average lifespan is a frighteningly short 47 years) would be to incorporate ceramic water filtration systems. This could be done on a micro-level (each family has one) and this would cut down on water borne illness and conserve trees because boiling water wouldn't be neccessary anymore. Each ceramic filter can be cleaned (light scrubbing by hand) and reused hundreds if not thousands of times.

I've read somewhere these filters are now being used in South Asia (Vietnam maybe?) and these are basically clay flower pots. Very simple, very effective.

For one thing, Jews are an ethnic group not just a religious one. Whilst I do take the point about the diversity of Y-DNA, the point is the Jews are not majority R1b. And that will do it for the purposes of this thread. Maybe R1b Jews are even more economically successful than non-R1b Jews (no evidence of that) but that still leaves us with the rest of the Jews who are not R1b but who nonetheless have been far more successful than non-Jewish R1bs (the ones Maciamo and the rest imagine to be highly intelligent, entrepreneurial, individualist and so on).

I doubt very much that the Mormons have anything on the Jews (note I am talking about Jews worldwide not just American Jews - wherever Jews went, they did very well economically mainly due to their industriousness, ingenuity & entrepreneurial activities). What's your source?
 
I agree that Jews are a race (or maybe more accurately an ethnic group) AND a religion. I'm not an either/or regarding them, but a both.

And nobody is saying that Jewish people aren't successful. We've been talking about single macro-haplogroups though and how they relate to GDP.

Often it seems like the entire world is knocking at the door of R1b dominant countries (like England, France, and Germany-- and even the U.S.) or I1 heavy countries (like Sweden and Norway) trying to get in. I don't know that the free world is knocking on the door to move to Israel. Maybe they are now... and I haven't been aware of it.

My source on the per capita wealth of Mormons is my own enormous brain. All joking aside, I have a deep knowledge of world religions after years and years of study. However, I'm not a big source provider... basically because I'm lazy and I know what I know. Sorry about that.

But you are correct, Jews excel at financial matters. No argument from me about this fact.
 
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And nobody is saying that Jewish people aren't successful. We are talking about single macro-haplogroups though and how they relate to GDP.

No that's not what's actually being discussed. People in here (as in the OP) seem to point out that there's a positive correlation between GDP and countries where R1b is the majority haplogroup. It's clearly not the only haplogroup in those regions and nobody has actually offered any way to distinguish between the respective haplogroups' contribution to GDP within these respective nations.

I brought up an ethnic group in which R1b is not the majority haplogroup but which nonetheless is probably the most successful ethnic group out of those discussed. Not sure what the problem is.

Often it seems like the entire world is knocking at the door of R1b dominant countries (like England, France, and Germany-- and even the U.S.) or I1 heavy countries (like Sweden and Norway) trying to get in. I don't know that the free world is knocking on the door to move to Israel. Maybe they are now... and I haven't been aware of it.

This is not necessarily due to GDP. There are all sorts of reasons why one might choose to migrate to Sweden over Israel that has nothing to with income and everything to do with security or culture. Note all of the nations you brought up are extremely stable. Israel is somewhat chaotic at the moment. It's a very new nation and it's ridiculous to compare it with extremely old proto-nation states like France and England which had centuries to solve their internal conflicts. What's remarkable is that Israel has a relative high GDP despite it's serious internal problems and it's relatively recent emergence.
 
...No that's not what's actually being discussed...

Not sure what the problem is.

Note all of the nations you brought up are extremely stable. Israel is somewhat chaotic at the moment. It's a very new nation and it's ridiculous to compare it with extremely old proto-nation states like France and England which had centuries to solve their internal conflicts...

Number one-- that is what's being discussed.
Number two-- I'm not sure what the problem is either. You certainly seem to looking for one (as I've said repeatedly nobody is saying the Jews haven't been financially dominant).
Number three-- you don't get to have it both ways. If the Jews are a successful because of their genetic makeup, then the age of their nationstate would have little bearing on attracting other populations.

Now if it makes you feel better, please have the last word. I'm not commenting on this subject again here because frankly it's off topic and I don't want to have this thread split up by the moderators. If you want to start a seperate, dedicated thread, I will debate you until we're both blue in the face.

But please let's get back to y-DNA population genetics and the gross domestic product correlation.
 

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