Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

I think, that right question should be: who were the first croat-name-bearing people in anciet times.

It could be Slavs, Scythians or Iranians.

Today, Croats from Croatia are slavic, because they
speak slavic language. This is the only criterion.
This is the only proper way of thinking
 
Language doesn't necessarily determine ethnicity. Berbers, many of whom now speak Arabic, are not Arabs. These changes occur because of conquest. While that conquest may be accompanied by some new genetic influx, the proportions necessary for language change can vary widely. I think that kind of standard is as misguided as saying that religion determines ethnicity.

Balkan genetics-Kovacevic et al.PNG

Standing at the Gateway to Europe, Kovacevic et al:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

How different are the Slavic speaking people of the Balkans from the Greeks? They're far more similar to them than they are to Poles. As for the differences among them, they are negligible even at this level of resolution.
 

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Language doesn't necessarily determine ethnicity. Berbers, many of whom now speak Arabic, are not Arabs. These changes occur because of conquest. While that conquest may be accompanied by some new genetic influx, the proportions necessary for language change can vary widely. I think that kind of standard is as misguided as saying that religion determines ethnicity.

View attachment 7378

Standing at the Gateway to Europe, Kovacevic et al:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

How different are the Slavic speaking people of the Balkans from the Greeks? They're far more similar to them than they are to Poles. As for the differences among them, they are negligible even at this level of resolution.
Did Croatian language have any paleo balkanic substrate . Have they any word in their language of ancient Hellenic, Latin or Albanian and vlach origin. They have on their y-DNA lineage population I 2a but if they don't have any ancient word on their language this mean that their mix with locals wasn't significant.
During the 5-6 century AD thracians were assimilated or migrated into West Balkans, forced by the bulgars. Those people probably mixed with the Albanians there.
 
Language doesn't necessarily determine ethnicity. Berbers, many of whom now speak Arabic, are not Arabs. These changes occur because of conquest. While that conquest may be accompanied by some new genetic influx, the proportions necessary for language change can vary widely. I think that kind of standard is as misguided as saying that religion determines ethnicity.

View attachment 7378

Standing at the Gateway to Europe, Kovacevic et al:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

How different are the Slavic speaking people of the Balkans from the Greeks? They're far more similar to them than they are to Poles. As for the differences among them, they are negligible even at this level of resolution.
I sow carefully your map DNA here, Angela. All the Slavic population you mentioned, are closer to the Greeks because they have in their regions large population of Albanians [emoji23]. Macedonia and Kosovo have the largest Albanian population after the Albanian state. Montenegrins are close to Greeks because they are half Albanians. And Macedonians too. Many Muslim Albanians were assimilated by Muslim bosniaks during the last century. As I know there is no connection and intermixture between Slavic languages and Greek language , nor Latin language. But there is a lot of between the Albanian tongue and and Greek and Latin languages. Also we have the intermixture between the Albanian tongue and Slavic tongues. Conclude by your self
 
To be Croat (Hrvat) one doesn't need an Iranian,Schythian or whatever origin.
 
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I sow carefully your map DNA here, Angela. All the Slavic population you mentioned, are closer to the Greeks because they have in their regions large population of Albanians [emoji23]. Macedonia and Kosovo have the largest Albanian population after the Albanian state. Montenegrins are close to Greeks because they are half Albanians. And Macedonians too. Many Muslim Albanians were assimilated by Muslim bosniaks during the last century. As I know there is no connection and intermixture between Slavic languages and Greek language , nor Latin language. But there is a lot of between the Albanian tongue and and Greek and Latin languages. Also we have the intermixture between the Albanian tongue and Slavic tongues. Conclude by your self

Better conclusion from that chart would be that Albanians are just a mix of Greeks, Romans and Slavs. Most of their genome is, and their language, and customs. If you want to pinpoint Albanians out of forementioned triplet, you should look for the elements that are not inherent to those three populations.

Did Croatian language have any paleo balkanic substrate . Have they any word in their language of ancient Hellenic, Latin or Albanian and vlach origin. They have on their y-DNA lineage population I 2a but if they don't have any ancient word on their language this mean that their mix with locals wasn't significant.
During the 5-6 century AD thracians were assimilated or migrated into West Balkans, forced by the bulgars. Those people probably mixed with the Albanians there.

Except for the fact that there is not a single evidence of Albanian existence on Balkan in the 5th century.
 
I have been to Austria, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Lithuania, Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, and Serbia and I found that the Croats do not look like Serbs or Poles. They look more like Hungarians or Austrians. Of course they are mixed but tend not to look like Serbs. No wonder they hate each other. Serbs look very similar to Greeks, Albanians or Bulgarians -- in other words, more Semitic or Eastern Mediterrenean. The Croats are more closer to Illyrians, Celts, and Germanics than Slavic or Greek. I21a is probably Germanic (Gothic) as the Germans occupied the whole of Slovakia, Eastern Poland, Hungary, Transylvania, Croatia, Bosnia, and northern Serbia for a long time (100BCE-500 AD). The "Croats" eventually adopted Slavic language probably because the nobility was Slavic speaking or they were flooded with Slavic conquerors.
 
Better conclusion from that chart would be that Albanians are just a mix of Greeks, Romans and Slavs. Most of their genome is, and their language, and customs. If you want to pinpoint Albanians out of forementioned triplet, you should look for the elements that are not inherent to those three populations.



Except for the fact that there is not a single evidence of Albanian existence on Balkan in the 5th century.
Linguistically it can't be. It's just impossible. Nonsense. All what I mentioned at the post above about the language, are loan- words. Albanian tongue is completely a different branch of IE language, and you know it. Every kid of the Europe know this [emoji6]. I doubt you don't know too.
As we know the Illyrian language, was not a written language, so it's impossible to find some ancient tablets at the Illyrian capital (Scutar) . At least till today. The loan words, especially those of ancient Latin origin showing us the Illyrian- albanian continuity. As I read by linguists albanologs, the split between the two branches of Albanian language (gheg northern, tosk southern) had started during the ancient times, before the Slavic invasion on the region. Which clearly mean that those people are living in those regions for millennia. Which mean that tosk Albanians were living in Epirus regions in south Albania and north west Greece, since ancient times.
Have Croatian language ancient loan words? If they have some, we should accept that they have some pre Slavic origin either. Albanian language is too much latinized. It's linguistically impossible that old Albanians came to the region after the 10 century , as are saying all the time some Greek and Serb nationalists . Albanian, Greek and Celtic language are somehow a cultural wealth for Europe. But Basque is on the top list
 
Linguistically it can't be. It's just impossible. Nonsense. All what I mentioned at the post above about the language, are loan- words. Albanian tongue is completely a different branch of IE language, and you know it. Every kid of the Europe know this [emoji6]. I doubt you don't know too.
As we know the Illyrian language, was not a written language, so it's impossible to find some ancient tablets at the Illyrian capital (Scutar) . At least till today. The loan words, especially those of ancient Latin origin showing us the Illyrian- albanian continuity. As I read by linguists albanologs, the split between the two branches of Albanian language (gheg northern, tosk southern) had started during the ancient times, before the Slavic invasion on the region. Which clearly mean that those people are living in those regions for millennia. Which mean that tosk Albanians were living in Epirus regions in south Albania and north west Greece, since ancient times.

Of course he knows it, as well as anyone else who has done some research on this, but yet some of these guys here still choose to recycle the same old BS about Albanians. Obviously, they have an agenda here and want to make Albanians seem that they are some "recent arrivals" to present areas.

You proved your argument with lingustical evidence regarding this. Genetic evidence also supports the idea that Albanians have been to present areas since at least the Bronze age and that they are the least mixed people in the Balkans. But then again it is worthless arguing with some of these people because they will never accept this. That's why if I was you, I wouldn't even waste my time because their job here is to make Albanians seem that they are "recent arrivals", even though they know this is not true.
 
Linguistically it can't be. It's just impossible. Nonsense. All what I mentioned at the post above about the language, are loan- words. Albanian tongue is completely a different branch of IE language, and you know it. Every kid of the Europe know this [emoji6]. I doubt you don't know too.
As we know the Illyrian language, was not a written language, so it's impossible to find some ancient tablets at the Illyrian capital (Scutar) . At least till today. The loan words, especially those of ancient Latin origin showing us the Illyrian- albanian continuity. As I read by linguists albanologs, the split between the two branches of Albanian language (gheg northern, tosk southern) had started during the ancient times, before the Slavic invasion on the region. Which clearly mean that those people are living in those regions for millennia. Which mean that tosk Albanians were living in Epirus regions in south Albania and north west Greece, since ancient times.
Have Croatian language ancient loan words? If they have some, we should accept that they have some pre Slavic origin either. Albanian language is too much latinized. It's linguistically impossible that old Albanians came to the region after the 10 century , as are saying all the time some Greek and Serb nationalists . Albanian, Greek and Celtic language are somehow a cultural wealth for Europe. But Basque is on the top list
No such thing as Illyrian language,we don't know was all "Illyrian" tribes related to eachother,what we know is region called Illyrian by Greco-Roman ethnographers with no clear picture on ethnic origin of the same people,Albanian language has heavy borrowings from Slavic half and more toponyms in Albania itself are of Slavic origin and near to all in Kosovo.Influence from other languages Albanian is "Latinazied" so what if is it?that mean that your culture had more borrowing from the cultures mentioned prior.Bear in mind Albanians are mentioned first in 12 century,first alphabet in the 20th century,almost all your words for sea,fish and stuff are from other languages.Slavic language has great matching with the Thracian language,some of the first IE in the Balkans,so we don't need much Greek or Latin loanwords,since we know that Greek and Romans also borrowed from Thracians including their deities.
 
And for the record up until 19th century Serbs and Croats were called Illyrians,their language Illyrian,their Alphabet Illyrian by the Austro-Hungarians,Habsburgs,Franks etc,i don't think that mean much,only shift was made later when Albanian state needed to be created,which today is dismissed.Since in Illyricum both Centum and Satem languages were spoken from ancient times especially in the Adriatic coast Dalmatia and Istria.
 
And for the record up until 19th century Serbs and Croats were called Illyrians,their language Illyrian,their Alphabet Illyrian by the Austro-Hungarians,Habsburgs,Franks etc,i don't think that mean much,only shift was made later when Albanian state needed to be created,which today is dismissed.Since in Illyricum both Centum and Satem languages were spoken from ancient times especially in the Adriatic coast Dalmatia and Istria.

You are doing a terrible job of trying to rewrite history. This argument is laughable at best to any serious historian or linguist. There is no connection between Slavic languages and Illyrian or Thracian languages.

It is well known as well as recorded that original Slavs migrated to the Balkans from north starting in the 6th century AD. In the Balkans throughout the centuries they assimilated a good number of Illyrians and Thracians (evident from Y-DNA studies), so some words in south Slavic languages are borrowings from these indigenous populations (Illyrians, Thracians).

The southernmost Illyrian and probably some Thracian tribes who didn't get assimilated bacame known as Albanians. This is pretty simple, and accepted by every serious linguist or historian, and will not waste my time arguing over this anymore. I just wanted to correct you.
 
You are doing a terrible job of trying to rewrite history. This argument is laughable at best to any serious historian or linguist. There is no connection between Slavic languages and Illyrian or Thracian languages.

It is well known as well as recorded that original Slavs migrated to the Balkans from north starting in the 6th century AD. In the Balkans throughout the centuries they assimilated a good number of Illyrians and Thracians (evident from Y-DNA studies), so some words in south Slavic languages are borrowings from these indigenous populations (Illyrians, Thracians).
I does not rewrite history that's true,you like it or not,that is what your supreme leader did Enver Hodza from which all Albanians today live in some Illyro-Mania,for the migration you talk about is never proven,so again negative,just someone wish,no those Thracian" and Illyrians are what they are,enormous sources as well from the Greeks even after that 6th century,Slavs were called by their older names such is Triballian,Moesians,Getae,that is in the books from which i can support it with evidence,unlike your theories which are much more pseudo.
 
The question above has always been talked about when visiting croatian friends/families. The arguements range from being forced to become slavic or not. An alphabet ( slovenians as well) which has always been Latin based instead of Cyrillic based. A religion from the west roman empire - Catholic instead of the East Roamn Empire - Orthodox.

Anyway after reading many books, I decided to ask the question to the slavs in this forum. Link below is interesting

Fast forward a few years to aDNA when we have remains from Vucedol. No R1a, no I2-M423. What we do have is R1b in the Bronze Age period. We also have R1b from neighbouring La Tene in Austria around ~2000 years ago. The Slavs are not indigenous to Croatia, at least not in ancient times.
 
Linguistically it can't be. It's just impossible. Nonsense. All what I mentioned at the post above about the language, are loan- words. Albanian tongue is completely a different branch of IE language, and you know it. Every kid of the Europe know this [emoji6]. I doubt you don't know too.

It is not completely different. It is at least 95% similar.


As we know the Illyrian language, was not a written language, so it's impossible to find some ancient tablets at the Illyrian capital (Scutar) . At least till today. The loan words, especially those of ancient Latin origin showing us the Illyrian- albanian continuity. As I read by linguists albanologs, the split between the two branches of Albanian language (gheg northern, tosk southern) had started during the ancient times, before the Slavic invasion on the region. Which clearly mean that those people are living in those regions for millennia. Which mean that tosk Albanians were living in Epirus regions in south Albania and north west Greece, since ancient times.

No one is saying that those people didn't live in those regions for thousands of years, but we have no evidence that they were Albanian in those times.

Have Croatian language ancient loan words? If they have some, we should accept that they have some pre Slavic origin either. Albanian language is too much latinized. It's linguistically impossible that old Albanians came to the region after the 10 century , as are saying all the time some Greek and Serb nationalists . Albanian, Greek and Celtic language are somehow a cultural wealth for Europe. But Basque is on the top list

No it doesn't mean that. If Roman army prevailed in Italy, and reconquered Balkan, so that Balkan Slavs started speaking Vulgar Latin, would that mean Illyrian-Croatian continuity? No it wouldn't. Just like nothing you say proves BC continuity of Albanians.


Of course he knows it, as well as anyone else who has done some research on this, but yet some of these guys here still choose to recycle the same old BS about Albanians. Obviously, they have an agenda here and want to make Albanians seem that they are some "recent arrivals" to present areas.

Those are the current facts. It doesn't mean they are final. Every school book agrees that Albanian origin is obscure. If you have other facts you're free to present them, otherwise stop this nonsense.


It is well known as well as recorded that original Slavs migrated to the Balkans from north starting in the 6th century AD. In the Balkans throughout the centuries they assimilated a good number of Illyrians and Thracians (evident from Y-DNA studies), so some words in south Slavic languages are borrowings from these indigenous populations (Illyrians, Thracians)..


One could apply the same logic to Albanian language.
 
Fast forward a few years to aDNA when we have remains from Vucedol. No R1a, no I2-M423. What we do have is R1b in the Bronze Age period. We also have R1b from neighbouring La Tene in Austria around ~2000 years ago. The Slavs are not indigenous to Croatia, at least not in ancient times.

Vucedol culture as per past historians, from 1, 5, 10, 50 and 100 years ago have always stated it is proto-illyrian culture, I have never seen an argument which states otherwise
 
Vucedol culture as per past historians, from 1, 5, 10, 50 and 100 years ago have always stated it is proto-illyrian culture, I have never seen an argument which states otherwise

He is not saying that Vucedol is not a Proto Illyrian culture. He is pointing out that the current most frequent haplogroups in Croatians, I2a-Din and R1a, were not found in Bronze age Vucedol, at least not so far. Therefore they likely came later to the area, most likely with Slavic migrations.
 
And for the record up until 19th century Serbs and Croats were called Illyrians,their language Illyrian,their Alphabet Illyrian by the Austro-Hungarians,Habsburgs,Franks etc,i don't think that mean much,only shift was made later when Albanian state needed to be created,which today is dismissed.Since in Illyricum both Centum and Satem languages were spoken from ancient times especially in the Adriatic coast Dalmatia and Istria.
That majority of modern scholars accept that Albanian tongue, descent or evolved by Illyrian language.
 
And for the record up until 19th century Serbs and Croats were called Illyrians,their language Illyrian,their Alphabet Illyrian by the Austro-Hungarians,Habsburgs,Franks etc,i don't think that mean much,only shift was made later when Albanian state needed to be created,which today is dismissed.Since in Illyricum both Centum and Satem languages were spoken from ancient times especially in the Adriatic coast Dalmatia and Istria.
If those Serbs and Croats were called Illyrians, this doesn't mean they really were. They don't have any Latin and Greek loan words on their language. This mean they didn't lived there during the long Roman invasion.
 

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