The origins of the Thracians remain obscure, in the absence of written historical records. Evidence of proto-Thracians in the prehistoric period depends on artifacts of material culture. Several Thracian graves or tombstones have the name Rufus inscribed on them, meaning "redhead" – a common name given to people with red hair.[38] Ancient Greek artwork often depicts Thracians as redheads.[39] Rhesus of Thrace, a mythological Thracian King, derived his name because of his red hair and is depicted on Greek pottery as having red hair and beard.[39] Ancient Greek writers also described the Thracians as red haired. A fragment by the Greek poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians
Thracians spoke Balto Slavic language
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mihaitzateo
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Well are 3 red-hair genes and is possible for someone to have all 3 but to not have red hair,or beard.
On the other hand is possible that someone have only 1 red hair gene and have red hair.
For Montenegrins,about 40% or so,from the males,are having pure red beards.
Also,most common color in Montenegrin women at hair is auburn,which can not be,without red hair.
Between Romanian males,most have red nuance in their beard.
I understood is same about Bulgarians and people from Macedonia/FYROM.
So maybe people from Romania and Balkans do not have so much red hair anymore,because of how weather changed and is a lot more sunshine,that in the past.But I am pretty sure they still have at least 1 of the red hair genes,if they would make genetic testing.
You should also take into account that Balkans,Romania were mostly covered with forests so that means that the people from here were very few exposed at sun,compared to how it is now.
I was having dark brown hair and when I stopped staying in the sun so much,my hair got medium brown,with reddish nuance.
I also have some threads of red beard,between dark brown/black threads,which are most common,in my beard.
Little is known for certain about the Thracian language, since no phrase beyond a few words in length has been satisfactorily deciphered, and the sounder decipherments given for the shorter phrases may not be completely accurate. Some of the longer inscriptions may indeed be Thracian in origin but they may not reflect actual Thracian language sentences, but rather jumbles of names or magical formulas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language
There is quite advocates in scientific community that Thracian was Balto Slavic or Baltic. For example:
Bulgarian linguist Ivan Duridanov said that the comparative studies with the Baltic languages were very helpful in the case of some unclear personal and geographical Thracian names and provided new insights into the Thracian vocabulary. It turned out that the Thracian language is in close genetic links with the Baltic languages.
Harvey A. Mayer, American linguist claimed that that the ancient Thracians and Dacians were Balts. He wrote several books about this theory.
What is interesting is that Thracian names and surnames, as toponymies are very similar to the Balto Slavic, especially Lithuanian, from today's languages,
This is very good observation, among Serbs is strong cult of wolf. I would like that Baltic Tribe or anyone else from Lithuania/Latvia explain if cult of wolf exists in Baltic.
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MOESAN
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concerning red hair genes, it is very seldom that a man carrying three mutated genes would not have red or reddish or at least very auburn hairs... I have an australian survey at home about that - if new things, would you give us the link of the survey attesting what you write here? I'm interested - thanks
MOESAN
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I know it is because we are obliged by lack of data, but we speak too often about global countries DNA (me too, helas)- when you sea «global» or «mean» words you can whisper «helas» with me!
Romania is not a monolith - the Y HGs (and evidently mt DNA and autosomals) vary according to regions more or less easy to reach as everywhere - the ancient localization of Thracians according to your map is Moldavia-Bessarabia - in Bessarabia, Romanians have a huge amount of Y-J2 (34%) and Y-E1b (34% mostly V13), southern HGs- they are modest for Y-I2a (17%, almost autochtonous) and very few of Y-R1a (7%) and almost NO Y-R1b (but surely there are a few)! so, very little impact of supposed I-E demic framework if we believe theories - But is Bessarabia the place where genuine Thracians remained, or rather a place where first settled near-eastern-anatolian peasants and short time after other (eastern?) anatolians came with metals and high level culture and since that kept the lands near the Black Sea whatever occurred - the Y-I2a element is so close to the cradle that we cannot without deep clades be sure of an autochtonous or thracian or slavic origin for them – the Thracian elite could very well have had a different distributions of genes and settled later in more southern lands; but even the «slav» Bulgaria remained 'mediterranean' and partially autochtonous in a supple sense- but here again the regions are very different (pigmentation, cephalic index, stature) with diverse centers where Slavs and Turcs settled densely and mountainous districts more autochtonous. The Thracian could have taken the slopes lands between higlands and plains? They were coming at first from regions near Moldavia, not far from Galicia and Ruthenia where red hairs are not so rare when they are rare in surrounding lands, and they were themselves supposed to be often enough red haired, and we have a tiny link between Y-I2a2 and red hairs but Romania today has for Y-I2a2 only 2,5% (global!) and Bulgaria 2,0% (global!) -
the very low level of Y-R1a in Bessarabia push me to consider either the populations (of today) in these lands are not I-Ean, being more the heirs of precedent civilisations, or that the kind of I-Ean they pertain to were different from the huge mass of other I-Eans... in Romania, the maxima of R1a are in N-W (close to Hyngary) and in S-W (Danaw river: Slavs reinforced?):26% the two - Bulgaria as a mean of 17% R1a (Maciamo), Serbia has a mean of 16% (Maciamo) -
even broadly «local» total Y-I2a is not too strong in Bessarabia : 17% compared to 26% in Center-East and 22% in South-West Romania-
Bulgaria, where we can suppose Thracians kept some weight, has 20% of Y-I2a but 23,5% too of Y-E1b with only 17% R1a and 11% J2: it seems one of the more «old-balkanic» regions without too much of Slav (too few R1a) and without too much Anatolians (too few J2) -
Serbians don't give us a very clearer picture: not more slav than Romania and Bulgaria but it depends on regions I think...
I see not clear core population which can be attributed to first Thracians, but as said someones the «numerous» Thracians would have taken a lot of precedent populations under their banners, and these european regions saw so much colonizations and invasions of different directions it is audacious searching a picture of ancient tribes in current populations!
But what i can see is the strong impact of Y-E1b and Y-J2 near the Black Sea: they are not directly descendants of the steppes people and the Y-J2 force there lead me to conclude this HG was heavy among the bronze Age metallurgists who settled in the ex-Starcevo region (Varna?): numerous elite of Cucuteni cultures and then North-Pontic first nomads of sedentary origin? I would bet Y-J2 (of a sort) was heavy too among the elites who influenced Maykop culture from South Caucasus ...
+ my impression is that the fluvial knots of the Balkans (Danau and other rivers) had time to elaborate a furious mix of people and genes of all sorts!!! I bet regions would show more differences within countries than countries between themselves, due to this contrast of mountains and rivers (an answer to some speculations about global countries distributions)– History confirms that Balkans never stopped tribes, only puzzled their unity -
other way to look at things: Thracians were southern I-Eans, maybe close to the mix that gave birth to I-Ean (one of the possible hypothesis helas), a post-neolithical metallurgic culture of Anatolians + Balkanics of West-Black-Sea having acculturated Pit Ware tribes in the current Galicia-Moldavia-Ruthenia region (always Varna-Cucuteni) and taken a semi-nomadic way of life: the Pit-Ware people, learned the I-Ean and made a satem language of it, THE MORE SATEMIZED FORMS, and later, well learned their lessons, became the more R1a (+ a bit of I2a1) and more nomadic I-Eans tribes when the cultures stayed closer to Black Sea kept on more sedentary (more E1b more J2)- the future Catacombs, Greeks, Phrygians, Thracians, Dacians were closer to the southern ones, Slavs and Balts (as Corded) and Timber Grave people closer to the northern ones (and to the people who made the eastern Steppes cultures and Indo-iranian colonization - I think R1b were previously North the Black Sea, but where precisely?
Sile
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so why do Bulgarians always sit next to northern italians in autosomal charts?
is it the thracian component or the bulgars from north of the caspian sea the link?
albanopolis
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How do one knows? Thracian is a written language. Traces of the language are discovered all over stones in Thracia. There is no slavic traces there. Illyrian is spoken language. It was not written!
mihaitzateo
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A study in Neamt county found there 40% I2A,4% or so I1A,2.5%-3% I2B,20% R1A.
As for Bessarabia,they are very light skin people and most have medium brown or light brown hair.And some have blonde hair or dark hair.
As for eyes color,lots are light mixed or light eyed.
What women from Bessarabia I got as coleagues at my job,are all light eyed or light mixed.
(and are 6 or 7).
From where you got that people from Bessarabia got 34% E-V13 and so much J2?
Even between Moldovans from Moldova that belongs to Romania,you can find very rare someone with black hair,most are brown hair,with lots with light brown hair or even blonde.
As for the test for red hair genes in Romanians,that thing about red threads in their beard I noticed at Romanians who are wearing beard.
(which are quite rare,anyway
).
People in Romania do not care too much about history or genetics,most say they are descendants of Latins,even those from Bessarabia and are quite hard to convince that is not true,maybe they accept they have some Dacian ancestry,but more than that,is very hard to talk with them.
EDIT:
Just wanted to add one more thing,I think black hair in Albanians is more rare than 1 in 10 persons,so actually people with black hair are more rare in Albania,than in Germany or Norway.
In South Romania,black hair is more often,but you need to take into account that people here mixed also with Cumans,besides Southern Europeans.
As for Bessarabia,they are very light skin people and most have medium brown or light brown hair.And some have blonde hair or dark hair.
As for eyes color,lots are light mixed or light eyed.
What women from Bessarabia I got as coleagues at my job,are all light eyed or light mixed.
(and are 6 or 7).
From where you got that people from Bessarabia got 34% E-V13 and so much J2?
Even between Moldovans from Moldova that belongs to Romania,you can find very rare someone with black hair,most are brown hair,with lots with light brown hair or even blonde.
As for the test for red hair genes in Romanians,that thing about red threads in their beard I noticed at Romanians who are wearing beard.
(which are quite rare,anyway
).People in Romania do not care too much about history or genetics,most say they are descendants of Latins,even those from Bessarabia and are quite hard to convince that is not true,maybe they accept they have some Dacian ancestry,but more than that,is very hard to talk with them.
EDIT:
Just wanted to add one more thing,I think black hair in Albanians is more rare than 1 in 10 persons,so actually people with black hair are more rare in Albania,than in Germany or Norway.
In South Romania,black hair is more often,but you need to take into account that people here mixed also with Cumans,besides Southern Europeans.
A study in Neamt county found there 40% I2A,4% or so I1A,2.5%-3% I2B,20% R1A.
As for Bessarabia,they are very light skin people and most have medium brown or light brown hair.And some have blonde hair or dark hair.
As for eyes color,lots are light mixed or light eyed.
What women from Bessarabia I got as coleagues at my job,are all light eyed or light mixed.
(and are 6 or 7).
From where you got that people from Bessarabia got 34% E-V13 and so much J2?
Even between Moldovans from Moldova that belongs to Romania,you can find very rare someone with black hair,most are brown hair,with lots with light brown hair or even blonde.
As for the test for red hair genes in Romanians,that thing about red threads in their beard I noticed at Romanians who are wearing beard.
(which are quite rare,anyway
People in Romania do not care too much about history or genetics,most say they are descendants of Latins,even those from Bessarabia and are quite hard to convince that is not true,maybe they accept they have some Dacian ancestry,but more than that,is very hard to talk with them.
EDIT:
Just wanted to add one more thing,I think black hair in Albanians is more rare than 1 in 10 persons,so actually people with black hair are more rare in Albania,than in Germany or Norway.
In South Romania,black hair is more often,but you need to take into account that people here mixed also with Cumans,besides Southern Europeans.
No. You was not in Kosovo or Western Macedonia. And most of Albania. Albanians have black hair and eyes more then North part of Serbia and Bosnia, not to mention Croatia or Slovenia. And they have much more darker hair and eyes than people of North Europe.
I was in Romania but I wasn't in Black sea region. Someone told me that in Dobrogea there are much more darker people.
Map of light hair in Europe
This map is based according to scientific paper published in respectable American scientific journal "Evolution and human behavior"
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mihaitzateo
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That map is not accurate,for sure when it is about Romania.
Most light haired Romanians are those from Bessarabia and plains of Moldavia.
In North Transylvania (from where my mother is and where I have been lots of times) light hair is quite rare,as black hair is rare also.
There most common is a medium-dark brown with a reddish nuance,which can not be considered "light hair".
As for Albanians,I looked on the pictures they are posting and I saw very few with black hair.
Anyway there are also local differences in South Romania as you move from area to area,considering hair color.
Most often black hair is found in Oltenia (which is the South West part of Romania) but I think that is not associated with Cuman ancestry,but,as strange as it sounds,with Germanic ancestry.
On some recent Y DNA test,they found about 10% of paternal lines from Dolj county,from Oltenia to be clades of I1.
To think that Goths and other germanic tribes were having only Germanic and Celtic ancestry is false,I think,is clear that they mixed with other people,on the road,especially women.
So paternal lines were kept,but autosomal genetics and hair color,eyes color,were not kept.
Black hair is what the name says,black,not dark brown.
As for black eyes,those are very very rare,so what you are saying,that black eyes are present in Albania,is just a nonsense.
Black hair is almost absent at Slavic people,or very rare at Eastern Europeans who are not Slavic speakers,except Greeks.
Get a crowd picture of Albanians and let us count how many of them have black hair,not dark hair,to see if they are at least 1 in 20.
Most light haired Romanians are those from Bessarabia and plains of Moldavia.
In North Transylvania (from where my mother is and where I have been lots of times) light hair is quite rare,as black hair is rare also.
There most common is a medium-dark brown with a reddish nuance,which can not be considered "light hair".
As for Albanians,I looked on the pictures they are posting and I saw very few with black hair.
Anyway there are also local differences in South Romania as you move from area to area,considering hair color.
Most often black hair is found in Oltenia (which is the South West part of Romania) but I think that is not associated with Cuman ancestry,but,as strange as it sounds,with Germanic ancestry.
On some recent Y DNA test,they found about 10% of paternal lines from Dolj county,from Oltenia to be clades of I1.
To think that Goths and other germanic tribes were having only Germanic and Celtic ancestry is false,I think,is clear that they mixed with other people,on the road,especially women.
So paternal lines were kept,but autosomal genetics and hair color,eyes color,were not kept.
Black hair is what the name says,black,not dark brown.
As for black eyes,those are very very rare,so what you are saying,that black eyes are present in Albania,is just a nonsense.
Black hair is almost absent at Slavic people,or very rare at Eastern Europeans who are not Slavic speakers,except Greeks.
Get a crowd picture of Albanians and let us count how many of them have black hair,not dark hair,to see if they are at least 1 in 20.
Sorry Mihaitzateo, I forgot to write that map is derived from respectable scientific journal, you know scientists realize researches and publish papers. This Journal is highly respected, I noted that journal in original post.
But Figure talks about percentage of light hair in Europe. You can see that 1-19% are areas where is the smallest percentage light hair in Europe but authors don't emphasize percentages of brown, or black or another dark hair.
Do you really make decisions according to photos?
Does someone really think that Albanians have more light hair than Scandinavians seeing several photos?
You can see Figure from scientific paper that Scandinavians have the highest percentage light hair in the Europe. And that Albanians together with another Balkan and South Europe nations have the smallest percentage.
If you don't believe what science says you can easy make the test. Go to the Scandinavia for several days and go to the Kosovo and Western Macedonia for several days.
I was in almost every settlement in Kosovo and Western Macedonia, and I know what I talk about.
You can ask Albanians from this forum and they will say to you same.
My words:
"Albanians have black hair and eyes more then North part of Serbia and Bosnia, not to mention Croatia or Slovenia. And they have much more darker hair and eyes than people of North Europe."
I don't know what you understood. Here is only comparison between populations, more/less, without goings in absolute numbers.
Again, you can go to Croatia and Kosovo/Western Macedonia, count the number of people with black hair and eyes and you will see result.
*
But you started a good theme for this topic. Take another look at Figure from scientific Journal. You can notice that today's people at the former Thracian territories have darker hair than anywhere else in Europe (except for South Western Europe). And this is good theme for discussion, why it can be if Thracian were people who spoke Baltic or Balto Slavic language.
Welcome to forum.
mihaitzateo
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I did not said that Scandinavians are not light haired,but for example,in Norwegians,about 1 in 10 persons have pure black hair.
As for East Europeans,the percentage is rarer,even if they are not that light haired,as Scandinavians.
And this happens even at South East Europeans,except Greeks,which are indeed mostly dark haired,but at them dark haired is dark brown,not black.
You do not think that ancient Greek historians could have called dark brown red?
I think they could.
If Norwegians are having so much brown hair now,that is because of the mixing with Celtic woman.
I was just explaining to that Swede who said that is not possible that Balkanics and Romanians to be descendants of Thracians,because of the lack of red hair,since Thracians were described as red haired.
No one ever did genetic testing for red hair genes in any Balkanic population or at Romanians.
I have seen in Transylvania as most present color of hair different nuances of auburn hair and I have been there plenty of times,now maybe I saw that wrong.
EDIT:
One more thing,Dacians are not described as red haired,but as blonde and with blue eyes and very tall.
But I think is possible that they had a significant percentage of people with light haired and blue eyes.
And since Greek historians were not used to see so much blonde haired and blue eyes,they said Dacians are blonde and blue eyed.
Very tall are Montenegrins,Serbians,Bosnians and Albanian highlanders,from this area and I think are tallest in Europe also.
For sure Montenegrins are tallest in Europe (and I guess in the world also).
Take the Serbians have as folk tradition they are "wolf people" and they are descending from a wolf and Dacians were also calling themselves "wolf people" and they were saying that are descending from a wolf.
They also have the "vucari" tradition,some tradition linked to wolves.
Notice that Eastern Slavs do not have tradition with wolves.
As for East Europeans,the percentage is rarer,even if they are not that light haired,as Scandinavians.
And this happens even at South East Europeans,except Greeks,which are indeed mostly dark haired,but at them dark haired is dark brown,not black.
You do not think that ancient Greek historians could have called dark brown red?
I think they could.
If Norwegians are having so much brown hair now,that is because of the mixing with Celtic woman.
I was just explaining to that Swede who said that is not possible that Balkanics and Romanians to be descendants of Thracians,because of the lack of red hair,since Thracians were described as red haired.
No one ever did genetic testing for red hair genes in any Balkanic population or at Romanians.
I have seen in Transylvania as most present color of hair different nuances of auburn hair and I have been there plenty of times,now maybe I saw that wrong.
EDIT:
One more thing,Dacians are not described as red haired,but as blonde and with blue eyes and very tall.
But I think is possible that they had a significant percentage of people with light haired and blue eyes.
And since Greek historians were not used to see so much blonde haired and blue eyes,they said Dacians are blonde and blue eyed.
Very tall are Montenegrins,Serbians,Bosnians and Albanian highlanders,from this area and I think are tallest in Europe also.
For sure Montenegrins are tallest in Europe (and I guess in the world also).
Take the Serbians have as folk tradition they are "wolf people" and they are descending from a wolf and Dacians were also calling themselves "wolf people" and they were saying that are descending from a wolf.
They also have the "vucari" tradition,some tradition linked to wolves.
Notice that Eastern Slavs do not have tradition with wolves.
Ike
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While we talk about the looks, the more south you go you will see more characteristic phenotypes.
Problematically shaped nose, protruded teeth, and that hole at the inner upper corner of the eyes combined with protruding bones on the outside with very dark and strong eyebrows which give specific "look".
Eliza Dushku (pic1, pic2), which is half Albanian, Emina Jahovic (pic1,pic2)which is half Serbian. Even Penelope Cruz (pic) gives away the same impression.
I have no other ideas but hg E.
Problematically shaped nose, protruded teeth, and that hole at the inner upper corner of the eyes combined with protruding bones on the outside with very dark and strong eyebrows which give specific "look".
Eliza Dushku (pic1, pic2), which is half Albanian, Emina Jahovic (pic1,pic2)which is half Serbian. Even Penelope Cruz (pic) gives away the same impression.
I have no other ideas but hg E.
nordicwarrior
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Totally agree.
Also I think we should remember that DNA transmission doesn't only reward superior warrior culture, but also successful relationships with neighboring tribes (like through trade and commerce).
An interesting thread topic might be the relationship between geographic features (ie. mountains, riverside areas, forest) and haplogroup success. Also population density and it's influence on y-DNA dispersal could be worthy of discussion.
mihaitzateo
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There is very few Roman Y DNA in Romania and Balkans.
Most R1B is Ht-35 which is Thraco-Dacian,I think,being present in significant percentages,except Greeks,at Satem speakers.
What I can not understand is how come all Romanians are speaking a Centum language,at least this how most of the words are.
I do not believe the theory which says that after 125 of Roman Empire occupation ,all Thraco-Dacians from here started to speak Romance.
The fact that Roman Empire conquest left very few traces is also shown by the lack of Roman Y DNA here.
Most of Romania was not conquered by Roman Empire,however,people from there still speak Romanian.
Romanian is only one language,but from area to area,the way of pronouncing the words is different and are few differences in words.
For example Bessarabia was never under Roman Empire,neither the part of Moldavia that belongs to Romania,however,these people are speaking Romanian which is fully mutually intelligible with the Romanian spoke in South Western part of Romania,which is Oltenia and which was conquered by Roman Empire.
Most R1B is Ht-35 which is Thraco-Dacian,I think,being present in significant percentages,except Greeks,at Satem speakers.
What I can not understand is how come all Romanians are speaking a Centum language,at least this how most of the words are.
I do not believe the theory which says that after 125 of Roman Empire occupation ,all Thraco-Dacians from here started to speak Romance.
The fact that Roman Empire conquest left very few traces is also shown by the lack of Roman Y DNA here.
Most of Romania was not conquered by Roman Empire,however,people from there still speak Romanian.
Romanian is only one language,but from area to area,the way of pronouncing the words is different and are few differences in words.
For example Bessarabia was never under Roman Empire,neither the part of Moldavia that belongs to Romania,however,these people are speaking Romanian which is fully mutually intelligible with the Romanian spoke in South Western part of Romania,which is Oltenia and which was conquered by Roman Empire.
No. You was not in Kosovo or Western Macedonia. And most of Albania. Albanians have black hair and eyes more then North part of Serbia and Bosnia, not to mention Croatia or Slovenia. And they have much more darker hair and eyes than people of North Europe.
I was in Romania but I wasn't in Black sea region. Someone told me that in Dobrogea there are much more darker people.
Map of light hair in Europe
This map is based according to scientific paper published in respectable American scientific journal "Evolution and human behavior"
From C. S. Coon, 1939. The source is old and we don't know if author realized the research.
But I appreciate it, because in Internet there are a lot of pigment/hair/eyes charts which are from unreliable sources.
I know that in one part of North Albania people have lighter hair than in rest of Albania. Someone can suppose that in that region lived a lot of Slavs and they mostly Albanized. Probably partly there is true.
I will tell my observations from Serbia and Bosnia. I know Serbian/Bosniac people, E-V13 carriers. And they are not much dark. I know E-V13 carrier who have blue hair and eyes. What I want to say, skin/hair/eye colour has no direct link with haplogroup. But my experience is that J2 carriers are most dark.
What I say is not science because, no matter how many haplogroup carriers I know, the sample is small. From my experience J2 carriers in Serbia/Bosnia (and another ex YU countries) are the darkest, not E-V13 carriers.
From my experience Albanians in Western Kosovo, plus Urosevac, Prizren, etc., as in North and Western Macedonia Skopje, Tetovo, Gostivar etc are the darkest. Albanians in Montenegro are the lighter. I know well all regions ex YU where Albanians live. I wasn't in Albania but I believe that south from Tirana population is darker.
Here I must say that issue of skin/hair/eye color can be political incorrect. I don't say explicitly that it is political incorrect but it depends of context. But when participants understand this it is no problem to discuss.
mihaitzateo
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I can confirm that in South Romania,near Bucharest,light eyes were more often present that dark eyes.
But since lots of people came to Bucharest,this changed.
As for Bessarabia,I think is actually more accurate than the map Garrick posted.
What people I have seen are mostly from North Bessarabia.
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