Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples

Someone has finally posted on anthrogenica. As I suspected, the "PCA" has nothing to do with the Hannah Moots paper. Her paper is only dealing with the people of Latium, which is sensible if you want to talk about the actual "original" Romans.
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I don't know if the PCA has any Republican Era Romans. I would doubt it, given that in the Moots paper 60% of them land on Northern Italy, and no single sample in the PCA lands on Northern Italians, and only one lands on Tuscans.

As I said before, if the people doing this study are getting a lot or even most of their samples from places like Ostia, then there's a problem unless they do a lot of isotope analysis.
 
Here is an interesting article retweeted by Hannah Moots' on her twitter feed on April 4th:

Why We Need to Start Seeing the Classical World in Color

The equation of white marble with beauty is not an inherent truth of the universe; it’s a dangerous construct that continues to influence white supremacist ideas today.

Modern technology has revealed an irrefutable, if unpopular, truth: many of the statues, reliefs, and sarcophagi created in the ancient Western world were in fact painted. Marble was a precious material for Greco-Roman artisans, but it was considered a canvas, not the finished product for sculpture. It was carefully selected and then often painted in gold, red, green, black, white, and brown, among other colors.


A number of fantastic museum shows throughout Europe and the US in recent years have addressed the issue of ancient polychromy. The Gods in Color exhibit travelled the world between 2003–15, after its initial display at the Glyptothek in Munich. (Many of the photos in this essay come from that exhibit, including the famed Caligula bust and the Alexander Sarcophagus.) Digital humanists and archaeologists have played a large part in making those shows possible. In particular, the archaeologist Vinzenz Brinkmann, whose research informed Gods in Color, has done important work, applying various technologies and ultraviolet light to antique statues in order to analyze the minute vestiges of paint on them and then recreate polychrome versions.

Acceptance of polychromy by the public is another matter. A friend peering up at early-20th-century polychrome terra cottas of mythological figures at the Philadelphia Museum of Art once remarked to me: “There is no way the Greeks were that gauche.” How did color become gauche? Where does this aesthetic disgust come from? To many, the pristine whiteness of marble statues is the expectation and thus the classical ideal. But the equation of white marble with beauty is not an inherent truth of the universe. Where this standard came from and how it continues to influence white supremacist ideas today are often ignored.


Most museums and art history textbooks contain a predominantly neon white display of skin tone when it comes to classical statues and sarcophagi. This has an impact on the way we view the antique world. The assemblage of neon whiteness serves to create a false idea of homogeneity — everyone was very white! — across the Mediterranean region. The Romans, in fact, did not define people as “white”; where, then, did this notion of race come from?

In early modern Europe, taxonomies were all the rage. What would later be termed the “scientific revolution” was marked by a desire to categorize, label, and rank everything from plants to minerals. It was only a matter of time before humans were similarly subjected to such manmade systems of classification. At the same time, artists began to engage with mathematics and anatomy and to use classical sculpture as a means of addressing the question of replicable beauty through proportions.


One of the most influential art historians of the era was Johann Joachim Winckelmann. He produced two volumes recounting the history of ancient art, Geschichte der Kunst des Alterthums (1764), which were widely read and came to form a foundation for the modern field of art history. These books celebrate the whiteness of classical statuary and cast the Apollo of the Belvedere — a Roman marble copy of a Hellenistic bronze original — as the quintessence of beauty. Historian Nell Irvin Painter writes in her book The History of White People (2010) that Winckelmann was a Eurocentrist who depreciated people of other nationalities, like the Chinese or the Kalmyk.




“Color in sculpture came to mean barbarism, for they assumed that the lofty ancient Greeks were too sophisticated to color their art,” Painter writes. The ties between barbarism and color, civility and whiteness would endure. Not to mention Winckelmann’s pronounced preference for sculptures of gleaming white men over women. Regardless of his own sexual identity — which may have been expressed in this preference — Winckelmann’s gender bias would go on to have an impact on white male supremacists who saw themselves as upholding an ideal.


Winckelmann wasn’t the only man obsessed with the Apollo Belvedere. The Dutch anatomist Pieter Camper believed that he could find the formula for perfect beauty through facial angles and used the statue as a standard to be attained. He began to measure human and animal facial features, particularly the lines running from the nose to the ear and the forehead to the jawbone. Those ratios were later used by others to create the racist “cephalic index,” which categorized humans based on the width and length of their facial features. The Nazis drew on the index to support notions of Aryan superiority in Germany during the Third Reich.

Camper’s successors perpetuated and reshaped many of his ideas to be even more biased towards newly constructed races. As classicist Christopher B. Krebs wrote in A Most Dangerous Book, his work on the Third Reich’s manipulation of the classical author Tacitus, “Throughout the nineteenth century, scientists would scour far and wide mismeasuring human anatomy. The more data that was compiled, the less significant the result became. Where science failed, prejudice stepped in and observation yielded to opinion.” This prejudice was seen particularly in the diagramming of beauty within anatomical textbooks of the 19th and early 20th centuries. The son of a famous botanist, Mathias Marie Duval developed numerous anatomical models that were broadly used in medical schools and perpetuated ideas of whiteness that never existed in the ancient world. They were derived from examples of classical sculpture, particularly (you guessed it) the Apollo Belvedere.

Too often today, we fail to acknowledge and confront the incredible amount of racism that has shaped the ideas of scholars we cite in the field of ancient history. For example, I recently, came across Tenney Frank’s disturbing article “Race Mixture in the Roman Empire” while looking through an edited volume. First published in The American Historical Review in July 1916, the article sees Frank attempting to count extant inscriptions (mostly epitaphs) in order to gauge whether “race mixing” contributed to the decline of the Roman empire. It was then reprinted without comment in Greek historian Donald Kagan’s 1962 collection of articles on the fall of Rome.


I am not suggesting that Kagan is a racist (far from it), but, at the least, he should have contextualized Frank’s essay in his introduction to the volume and highlighted it as an example of the virulent racism built into the foundation of the Classics field. As Denise Eileen McCoskey points out in her excellent book Race: Antiquity and Its Legacy, Frank’s argument is not only untrue, it is dangerous. It provides further ammunition for white supremacists today, including groups like Identity Europa, who use classical statuary as a symbol of white male superiority. It also continues to buttress the false construction of Western civilization as white by politicians like Steve King.


Seattle has never looked better. #FashTheCity pic.twitter.com/UA3DjDKKnq


— IDENTITY EVROPA (@IdentityEvropa) November 4, 2016


How can we address the problem of the lily white antiquity that persists in the public imagination? What can classicists learn from the debate over whiteness and ancient sculpture?


First, we must consider why we are such a homogenous field. According to the Society for Classical Studies, the leading association for Classics in the United States, in 2014, just 9% of all undergraduate Classics majors were minorities. This number decreases the higher into academia you go. Just 2% of tenured full-time Classics faculty were minorities, according to the study.


Do we make it easy for people of color who want to study the ancient world? Do they see themselves in the ancient landscape that we present to them? The dearth of people of color in modern media depicting the ancient world is a pivotal issue here. Movies and video games, in particular, perpetuate the notion that the classical world was white. This is an issue when 70% of my students tell me that games such as Ryse: Son of Rome (which uses white statues to decorate the city of Rome and white Roman soldiers as lead characters), as well as films like Gladiator (which has a man from New Zealand playing the Spaniard Maximus) and the 300 (which has xenophobic depictions of Persians) led them to take my courses.

If we want to see more diversity in Classics, we have to work harder as public historians to change the narrative — by talking to filmmakers, writing mainstream articles, annotating our academic writing and making it open access, and doing more outreach that emphasizes the vast palette of skin tones in the ancient Mediterranean. I’m not suggesting that we go, with a bucket in hand, and attempt to repaint every white marble statue across the country. However, I believe that tactics such as better museum signage, the presentation of 3D reconstructions alongside originals, and the use of computerized light projections can help produce a contextual framework for understanding classical sculpture as it truly was. It may have taken just one classical statue to influence the false construction of race, but it will take many of us to tear it down. We have the power to return color to the ancient world, but it has to start with us.


https://hyperallergic.com/383776/why-we-need-to-start-seeing-the-classical-world-in-color/
 
Here is an interesting article retweeted by Hannah Moots' on her twitter feed:

This gonne give way more faith to people that science is not influenced by politics... Also a lot of projections, who can say how Romans view themselves.
 
Is she putting forth the statement that Southern Europeans "Greeks and Romans" aren't white , thats a ridiculous statement..shes just feeding into the modern stereotype of a scale of whiteness..with Northern Europeans types at the top and Southern at the Bottom, im not looking forward to any of her work anymore lol
 
Is she putting forth the statement that Southern Europeans "Greeks and Romans" aren't white , thats a ridiculous statement..shes just feeding into the modern stereotype of a scale of whiteness..with Northern Europeans types at the top and Southern at the Bottom, im not looking forward to any of her work anymore lol

This obfuscation is detrimental to our discourse in the thread. She's obviously not saying that. You have received an infraction for disruptive/provocative behavior; stop t-rolling.
 
I have long known that the ancient sculptures were painted. Now I will have to look at this exhibit and make a value judgement on whether the painting of the statues was artistically pleasing or not.
 
I don't understand what you are saying.

That's literally an article who promotes forced mixing in Europe ( by an American btw ) because some analogy between painted marble and weird white supremacist assumptions on marble ( It also continues to buttress the false construction of Western civilization. ) I guess she considers mediterraneans as Colored People. ( The Romans, in fact, did not define people as “white”; where, then, did this notion of race come from? ) How do they know what ancient Romans thought about themselves? Following the logic of the article, white supremacists only wear white clothes.

The conclusion is even more Revisionnistic, it claims because " some colored people maybe wants to learn ancient history, we need to rewrite it to fit them ".
 
As a passive reader of this thread, I hope it doesn't get derailed by that Moots quotation ----> maybe it should be made the basis for another thread, with attendant political controversy
 
This obfuscation is detrimental to our discourse in the thread. She's obviously not saying that. You have received an infraction for disruptive/provocative behavior; stop t-rolling.

Why exactly are you juging him after yourself created this environnement putting political affairs on things that could hurt other people? You surely now that this community is not only made of the same kind of peoples right? You literrally created this then it's like you didn't measure what the consequences will be.
 
Why exactly are you juging him after yourself created this environnement putting political affairs on things that could hurt other people? You surely now that this community is not only made of the same kind of peoples right? You literrally created this then it's like you didn't measure what the consequences will be.

Wow, it is almost amusing how hysterical you are right now.

What did I create? I posted that she retweeted that article on April 4th.

If you can't handle the truth, perhaps you should stick your head in the sand.
 
That's literally an article who promotes forced mixing in Europe ( by an American btw ) because some analogy between painted marble and weird white supremacist assumptions on marble ( It also continues to buttress the false construction of Western civilization. ) I guess she considers mediterraneans as Colored People. ( The Romans, in fact, did not define people as “white”; where, then, did this notion of race come from? ) How do they know what ancient Romans thought about themselves? Following the logic of the article, white supremacists only wear white clothes.

The conclusion is even more Revisionnistic, it claims because " some colored people maybe wants to learn ancient history, we need to rewrite it to fit them ".

What the hell are you rambling about? Are you really this upset that she retweeted that article?

It was racist morons like Tenny Frank that argued that the Roman empire declined due to race-mixing, which the article said was untrue; which she retweeted. It was the Nazis that exaggerated the validity of Tacitus, to meet their own political agenda.

What, because it is not what you want to hear, you feel indignant? Give me a break.
 
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Wow, it is almost amusing how hysterical you are right now.

What did I create? I posted that she retweeted that article on April 4th.

If you can't handle the truth, perhaps you should stick your head in the sand.

What truth mate? It's basically used datas for " progressive " politics, while the datas of ancient history dont equals modern immigration or cosmopolitan problems. And yes use the only power you have in life to dictate that you are right and Progressive while i'm wrong and Regressive, its probably the only power you have in life. Probably you should be more professional as a Moderator and not let your political views come into topic. You can go discuss this with your friends in a starbuck coffee.
 
What truth mate? It's basically used datas for " progressive " politics, while the datas of ancient history dont equals modern immigration or cosmopolitan problems. And yes use the only power you have in life to dictate that you are right and Progressive while i'm wrong and Regressive, its probably the only power you have in life. Probably you should be more professional as a Moderator and not let your political views come into topic. You can go discuss this with your friends in a starbuck coffee.

It is not news that the Greeks and Roman statues were painted in these colors. So I don't know why you are so outraged.
 
That article has been posted on our Board before, in the context that neither the buildings nor the statues were of unadorned white marble.

I frankly don't think it has anything to do with art historians having been racist. The only reason we now know they were once painted is because we've got the technology to pick it up.

If she thinks it did then I'm disappointed because then I would think she's drunk the kool-aid they're selling on university campuses nowadays.

The same thing happened when the Sistine Chapel was restored. Art historians had written for hundreds of years about how appropriately gloomy the colors were for "The Last Judgment". Surprise, surprise, the colors were vibrant. :)

Augustus

augustus-of-prima-porta.jpeg


Caligula:
classiccaligula.jpg


Time enough to judge her population genetics research as somehow biased, if it indeed is, when it comes out.

Which reminds me that maybe we should get back to talking about genetics.
 
As a passive reader of this thread, I hope it doesn't get derailed by that Moots quotation ----> maybe it should be made the basis for another thread, with attendant political controversy

Derailed in what sense? The author of the paper on Ancient Italian DNA retweeted a post, which is quite illuminating in regards to what we can expect from her findings on the Ancient Romans.

It is safe to say they weren't Nordics, that's all. They looked like Southern Europeans.
 
Derailed in what sense? The author of the paper on Ancient Italian DNA retweeted a post, which is quite illuminating in regards to what we can expect from her findings on the Ancient Romans.

It is safe to say they weren't Nordics, that's all. They looked like Southern Europeans.

My impression from this thread is that the Romans looked like Northern Italians genetically (or is it a 60/40 split?). As a Calabrese, my bias is of course for the Southern Italians :) -- I am merely joking of course -- let the science yield what it shall yield
 
Derailed in what sense? The author of the paper on Ancient Italian DNA retweeted a post, which is quite illuminating in regards to what we can expect from her findings on the Ancient Romans.

It is safe to say they weren't Nordics, that's all. They looked like Southern Europeans.

The article clearly has nothing to do with Notherners or Southerners.

" First, we must consider why we are such a homogenous field. According to the Society for Classical Studies, the leading association for Classics in the United States, in 2014, just 9% of all undergraduate Classics majors were minorities. This number decreases the higher into academia you go. Just 2% of tenured full-time Classics faculty were minorities, according to the study.


Do we make it easy for people of color who want to study the ancient world? Do they see themselves in the ancient landscape that we present to them? The dearth of people of color in modern media depicting the ancient world is a pivotal issue here. Movies and video games, in particular, perpetuate the notion that the classical world was white. This is an issue when 70% of my students tell me that games such as Ryse: Son of Rome (which uses white statues to decorate the city of Rome and white Roman soldiers as lead characters), as well as films like Gladiator (which has a man from New Zealand playing the Spaniard Maximus) and the 300 (which has xenophobic depictions of Persians) led them to take my courses.

If we want to see more diversity in Classics, we have to work harder as public historians to change the narrative — by talking to filmmakers, writing mainstream articles, annotating our academic writing and making it open access, and doing more outreach that emphasizes the vast palette of skin tones in the ancient Mediterranean. I’m not suggesting that we go, with a bucket in hand, and attempt to repaint every white marble statue across the country. However, I believe that tactics such as better museum signage, the presentation of 3D reconstructions alongside originals, and the use of computerized light projections can help produce a contextual framework for understanding classical sculpture as it truly was. It may have taken just one classical statue to influence the false construction of race, but it will take many of us to tear it down. We have the power to return color to the ancient world, but it has to start with us.
"

I think what she tries to say is that there is not enough Black people in ancient europe mainstream depictions. Mediterranean, North African, Middle-Easterners are all " White Peoples ".

She mingle skin tone, origin, race as a whole. White and Black aren't even colors, this is all social science and affirmative action bias. We all know that ancient greeko-roman statues and temples were painted, who are seeing the world in black or white shades? We only see colors.
 
The article clearly has nothing to do with Notherners or Southerners.

" First, we must consider why we are such a homogenous field. According to the Society for Classical Studies, the leading association for Classics in the United States, in 2014, just 9% of all undergraduate Classics majors were minorities. This number decreases the higher into academia you go. Just 2% of tenured full-time Classics faculty were minorities, according to the study.


Do we make it easy for people of color who want to study the ancient world? Do they see themselves in the ancient landscape that we present to them? The dearth of people of color in modern media depicting the ancient world is a pivotal issue here. Movies and video games, in particular, perpetuate the notion that the classical world was white. This is an issue when 70% of my students tell me that games such as Ryse: Son of Rome (which uses white statues to decorate the city of Rome and white Roman soldiers as lead characters), as well as films like Gladiator (which has a man from New Zealand playing the Spaniard Maximus) and the 300 (which has xenophobic depictions of Persians) led them to take my courses.

If we want to see more diversity in Classics, we have to work harder as public historians to change the narrative — by talking to filmmakers, writing mainstream articles, annotating our academic writing and making it open access, and doing more outreach that emphasizes the vast palette of skin tones in the ancient Mediterranean. I’m not suggesting that we go, with a bucket in hand, and attempt to repaint every white marble statue across the country. However, I believe that tactics such as better museum signage, the presentation of 3D reconstructions alongside originals, and the use of computerized light projections can help produce a contextual framework for understanding classical sculpture as it truly was. It may have taken just one classical statue to influence the false construction of race, but it will take many of us to tear it down. We have the power to return color to the ancient world, but it has to start with us.
"

I think what she tries to say is that there is not enough Black people in ancient europe mainstream depictions. Mediterranean, North African, Middle-Easterners are all " White Peoples ".

She mingle skin tone, origin, race as a whole. White and Black aren't even colors, this is all social science and affirmative action bias. We all know that ancient greeko-roman statues and temples were painted, who are seeing the world in black or white shades? We only see colors.

Well, I think it does have a lot to do with the repudiation of the Nordicist concept of Romans. Many looked like Mediterranean Southern Europeans, at least by the time of Julius Caesar. As in not pale, anglo-saxon/germans. Sorry you had a conniption fit over the last part. Granted, that is PC-nonsense. But It was not the part I'd thought people would zero-in on. Jeez, you shouldn't get so worked up, it is bad for your health.
 

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