Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

Trojet said:
No, there is no such genetic evidence to date. Care to elaborate your "genetic evidence"? Shouldn't expect much since you can't even properly spell E-V13. You obviously are rooting for your own haplo to be the "Proto-Albanian" lineage, just like many kids in these forums (unless you are mount123).
It's very unlikely, if not impossible, that "Proto-Albanians" belonged to one or even two lineages.
Modern frequencies are a result of bottlenecks and founder effects, and we surely can't take the Arbëreshë and Arvanits of today as a model of what Proto-Albanians lineages looked like. And yes, as is the case with some of the other haplogroups, they do have some of the same J2b-L283 subclades that are found among both Ghegs and Tosks (ex. J-Y82533, J-PH1751). Furthermore, I've seen absolutely no evidence that J2b-L283 subclades amongst Albanians entered our ethnogenesis "late".
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They surely have completely different pathways when it comes to ancient South Eastern Europe or am I missing something here? As much as you are intending not to care about modern distributions, you actually do so very much. You want to postulate without evidence some pseudo relation between E1b-V13 and J2b-L283 because it has to fit the modern distribution of the haplogroups present among modern Albanians.

So much for me or other people here being "kids".
 
Dibran said:
Is there any actual evidence they are etymologically linked to the Albanian phrases(regardless of similarity)??
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These not just phrases, they are compounds words in medieval Albanian names.

But unfortunately NASA has yet to look into this matter. I will give them a call and let them know some people with very "high standards" demand someone with a respectful scholarly background examines the matter.
 
mount123 said:
They surely have completely different pathways when it comes to ancient South Eastern Europe or am I missing something here? As much as you are intending not to care about modern distributions, you actually do so very much. You want to postulate without evidence some pseudo relation between E1b-V13 and J2b-L283 because it has to fit the modern distribution of the haplogroups present among modern Albanians.
So much for me or other people here being "kids".
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By "kids" I meant random forum users who don't necessarily have the experience or the qualifications with regards to Albanian Y-DNA research and are jumping to premature conclusions. So I do apologize if that came out the wrong way.

Yes, it has been my observation for some years, even before we had any aDNA, that J2b-L283 and E1b-V13 do seem to have somewhat different starting points and distributions in the Bronze/Iron Ages within the Balkans, whith the former showing more of Western Balkan distribution and the latter more of a Central Balkan. However, that doesn't mean Albanian subclades of either one could not have been part of the later classical Illyrians or part of the Proto-Albanian ethnogenesis in late antiquity. For anyone at this point to claim otherwise, is premature to say the least..
 
Trojet said:
By "kids" I meant random forum users who don't necessarily have the experience or the qualifications with regards to Albanian Y-DNA research. So I do apologize if that came out the wrong way.
Yes, it has been my observation for some years, even before we had any aDNA, that J2b-L283 and E1b-V13 do seem to have somewhat different starting points and distributions in the Bronze/Iron Ages within the Balkans, whith the former showing more of Western Balkan distribution and the latter more of a Central Balkan. However, that doesn't mean Albanian subclades of either could not have been part of the later classical Illyrians or part of the ethnogenesis of Proto-Albanians in late antiquity. For anyone at this point to claim otherwise, is premature to say the least..
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The bulk of E1b-V13 won't be in Classical Illyrians as it did not once show up in Illyrian samples or am I again missing something here?

I am sure J2b-L283, E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705 once met at a round table and decided to create the Albanian ethnogenesis after all they are practically the same, all three of them descent from the YDNA ALB-V13L2832705 as was recently discovered in one ancient site :)


How eloquent of you to substitute kid with premature when addressing me :)
 
Dibran said:
Is there any actual evidence they are etymologically linked to the Albanian phrases(regardless of similarity)??
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Bouzas/Buzetius has been found as a typical name in Thrace, Dacia and northern Illyria
 
Trojet said:
No, there is no such genetic evidence to date. Care to elaborate your "genetic evidence"? Shouldn't expect much since you can't even properly spell E-V13. You obviously are rooting for your own haplo to be the "Proto-Albanian" lineage, just like many kids in these forums (unless you are mount123).

It's very unlikely, if not impossible, that Proto-Albanians belonged to one or even two lineages.
Modern frequencies are a result of bottlenecks and founder effects, and we surely can't take the Arbëreshë and Arvanits of today as a model of what Proto-Albanian lineages looked like in the past. And yes, as is the case with some of the other haplogroups, they do have some of the same J2b-L283 subclades that are found among both Ghegs and Tosks (ex. J-Y82533, J-PH1751). Furthermore, I've seen absolutely no evidence that J2b-L283 subclades amongst Albanians entered our ethnogenesis "late".
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This person PaleoRevenge doesn't believe in founder effects, they are nonsense according to him.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
In Justanian period there are two Thracian brothers from north-east Bulgaria that were generals in the Byzantine army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouzes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coutzes

Buze and Kuqi. Reminiscent to the early Arberesh names.
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Buza is used quite often as nickname for Albanians with thick lips. Even during wartime they nicknamed people like that. So, looks quite credible as much as the Dacian name Diegis meaning the burnt/flamed one which has similar meaning to Albanian djegs.

As for Coutzes i have no idea. Derite is quite the expert on linguistics and etymologies.

Matzinger has already put his decade-long of study in a book. I tend more to trust credible linguists like him. I do believe Pre/Proto-Albanoid(note that this is not Proto-Albanian but much ancient, Late Bronze Age) was one of the languages brought by the Gava/Channeled-Ware people which took the Central Balkans route and not the Eastern Thracoid variants which had latter heavy Iranid influences both culturally and linguistically likely.

Likely similar people pushed into Albania during Late Bronze Age attested by the Kanellure influence, but were latter swamped and included by the Early-Middle Iron Age Glasinac expansion.

You even have it in legend/mythology where the cremating Enchelei were being attacked by Northern Illyrians likely the Glasinac-Mat people.
 
mount123 said:
The bulk of E1b-V13 won't be in Classical Illyrians as it did not once show up in Illyrian samples or am I again missing something here?
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It hasn't shown up yet. But keep in mind that currently all we have is a few IA samples from one region of Northern Croatia which corresponds to Iapydes areas.

While E-V13 may not turn out to be a major haplogroup among the classical Illyrians, it's possible that some of the major Albanian subclades were present among them. After all, they did stretch all the way to Central Balkans in classical antiquity. So let's wait until we have some hard data before jumping into conclusions.

mount123 said:
How eloquent of you to substitute kid with premature when addressing me :)
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However, that doesn't mean Albanian subclades of either one could not have been part of the later classical Illyrians or part of the Proto-Albanian ethnogenesis in late antiquity. For anyone at this point to claim otherwise, is premature to say the least..
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The actual statement is premature (given the lack of evidence) and not the persons who are saying it :)
 
Trojet said:
It hasn't shown up yet. But keep in mind that currently all we have is a few IA samples from one region of Northern Croatia which corresponds to Iapydes areas.
Click to expand...

Interesting, so you literally fade out the rest of the J2b-L283 samples along the East Adriatic, the West Adriatic and the Mediterranean in order to support your claim of Illyrians being heavy E1b-V13 despite its absolute absence and totally different pathway.

Thanks for the geography lesson I guess the MBA Posusje samples like the ones from Southern Croatia are actually Northern Croatian since Southern Croatia is the new Northern Croatia.
 
Trojet said:
No, there is no such genetic evidence to date. Care to elaborate your "genetic evidence"? Shouldn't expect much since you can't even properly spell E-V13. You obviously are rooting for your own haplo to be the "Proto-Albanian" lineage, just like many kids in these forums (unless you are mount123).
Click to expand...

Go back and read the entire thread. It's been proposed by several members here and it makes hella sense. Much more interesting than the "we wuz Egyptian pyramids, and Pellasgian space ships" stories for the drooling tards.

It's very unlikely, if not impossible, that Proto-Albanians belonged to one or even two lineages.
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Illyrians were almost entirely J2b, not impossible at all. Let me guess, we have not tested the janitors in Illlyrian society?

Modern frequencies are a result of bottlenecks and founder effects, and we surely can't take the Arbëreshë and Arvanits of today as a model of what Proto-Albanian lineages looked like in the past. And yes, as is the case with some of the other haplogroups, they do have some of the same J2b-L283 subclades that are found among both Ghegs and Tosks (ex. J-Y82533, J-PH1751).
Click to expand...

That type of thinking is for losers. That's the simpleton worldview, the world works by magic, fate, chance, luck whatever you want to call it. There is causality behind modern day haplogroup distributions. R1b warriors smashed their way into western Europe, not a fluke weather event. They didn't not become majority by "founder lottery event", they suppressed their competitors and won.

Furthermore, I've seen absolutely no evidence that J2b-L283 subclades amongst Albanians entered our ethnogenesis "late".
Click to expand...

That's because you can't see.
 
mount123 said:
Interesting, so you literally fade out the rest of the J2b-L283 samples along the East Adriatic, the West Adriatic and the Mediterranean in order to support your claim of Illyrians being heavy E1b-V13 despite its absolute absence and totally different pathway.
Thanks for the geography lesson I guess the MBA Posusje samples like the ones from Southern Croatia are actually Northern Croatian since Southern Croatia is the new Northern Croatia.
Click to expand...

I thought we were discussing classical Illyrians of the Balkans, as in mid to late Iron Age. Bronze Age samples you bring up obviously don't fit that category. And I did not claim Illyrians being E-V13 heavy. So don't put words in my mouth please :)

Trojet said:
It hasn't shown up yet. But keep in mind that currently all we have is a few IA samples from one region of Northern Croatia which corresponds to Iapydes areas.

While E-V13 may not turn out to be a major haplogroup among the classical Illyrians, it's possible that some of the major Albanian subclades were present among them. After all, they did stretch all the way to Central Balkans in classical antiquity. So let's wait until we have some hard data before jumping into conclusions.
The actual statement is premature (given the lack of evidence) and not the persons who are saying it :)
Click to expand...
 
Excine said:
This person PaleoRevenge doesn't believe in founder effects, they are nonsense according to him.
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You are not going to shame me because I am not a conventional person with no personality. Parroting is not hard, in fact most people can only parrot back popular view points. Show them proof that Albanians might have lived further east and they poop their pants or start rioting like BLM.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
You are not going to shame me because I am not a conventional person with no personality. Parroting is not hard, in fact most people can only parrot back popular view points. Show them proof that Albanians might have lived further east and they poop their pants or start rioting like BLM.
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No one is denying that Proto-Albanian was spoken in an area roughly corresponding to Dardania.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
That's because you can't see.
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Care to show us the evidence of a "late" entry then?

What the evidence we have shows is that Albanian J2b-L283 subclades, such as J-Y20899 and J-Y82533, have TMRCAs among Albanian samples dating back well into the late antiquity.
 
Excine said:
No one is denying that Proto-Albanian was spoken in an area roughly corresponding to Dardania.
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You are not being honest, we have people here talking about Alexander of Macedon, Epirots and rotating everything to Illyria. If you stand by your quote, you should have no beef with people like me setting this people strait.

Let's talk about founder effect, I first read that term in 2004-05 when the first Balkan and Bosnian study came out. They claimed I2a(back then I1b) = founder effect. Let's examine that overused term. We now know, that Dalmatia and Bosnia was chock full of J2b in BCE. Do you really believe some lonely I2a-Dinaric walked in one day and it went down like this?

I2a man drifts into Bosnia, by sheer luck.
J2b: What's up bro?
I2a-Dinaric: It hurts man, the Avars burned down my home, I got nothing.
J2b: You can stay with us bro, it's cool man, here have my wife too.

Then the founder effect kicked in(magic) and the lonely I2a man out bred J2b, reducing them to nothing. Or J2b got smallpox and the I2a had all the women to himself? Do you really think like that and want to laugh at me?

Let me tell you a little secret. Founder effect is taking a knee for multiculturalism. Just government employees (geneticist) simply toeing the party line, parti Enver kind of slogan, to keep the cheese rolling ($$$). Before genetic evidence came out, anthropologist were arguing old theories were wrong, Bell Beaker, Corded Ware all these cultures were simply a change of life style, not a change of people. You know kind of like boy now deciding he is really girl and needs to get a trans operation, same absurd concept. People like me questioned that view point in disbelief. Then genetic studies came out, and people like Maciamo and Jean proved the old school right, invasions were invasions and not some kumbaya event of people sharing cultures. Here why don't you try my pants on Neolithic dude. Founder effect is disclaimer language, yes R1a replaced the previous lineages, but it could be founder effect which translates to, it looks like an invasion occurred but invasion might not be invasion, we do not challenge the official government view, please don't cut our funding P.S founder effect.
If you don't think such a policy exists, you are living life with your eyes closed.


Here we are now, a lot has been rethought and reshaped by the genetic evidence. Except in the most backward spot in Europe. Everyone has moved around, migration here, there. But not in Albania, we are the most ancient ever.
 
Trojet said:
Care to show us the evidence of a "late" entry then?
What the evidence we have shows is that Albanian J2b-L283 subclades, such as J-Y20899 and J-Y82533, have TMRCAs among Albanian samples dating back well into the late antiquity.
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They are old because they are the real natives of Albania. I'm sure the J2a in the south is just as old. Do you think even....bro?
 
mount123 said:
In the mountains of the Nish-Shtip complex yes lol. I think we finally understand each other.

J2b-L283 also being heavy in some Catholic areas coincidence ehmmm nope? That too I'd argue might have helped it maintaining its existence in the medieval after the Slavic and Proto-Albanian migration (Notice how the Arbereshe are of the Byzantine rite aka Orthodox...they dont have any J2b-L283 maybe one person haha) so many coincidences indeed.

Nika guy marrying Gojcaj girl vice versa Spaci marrying Camaj etc. Back in the days that is how stuff went down.

Whatever you choose to identify with is up to you and not on me to decide.
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Ah yes, the "mountains" of Nish, and Shtip. :LOL: Nish has an elevation of 640 feet, Shtip has an elevation of 1000ft. They are cities in low lands. You call these mountains?

The Albanian Alps have an elevation of 9000ft, and the Sharr mountains have an elevation of 9000ft. Dibra, 9000ft. 9 times the height of Shtip and 14 times greater than Nish lol. Why do you think Proto-Albanians didn't survive in Nish & Shtip? Too low of an elevation, too easily accessible, while the Northern Albanian Alps and the mountain range from Sharr to Ohrid, are very tall, steep, with many valleys, narrow chokepoints, and cliff towers to fend off invaders. J2b2 is highest in these mountains. Living and developing in the mountains is how Proto-Albanians survived in it's early stages. Summers in the mountains, winters in the low lands, where we had contact with Latins and then Slavs.

There are J2b2 Arvanites and Arberesh, but you can just ignore them like you do everything, to make yourself feel smaller about your haplogroup. I've never seen someone shit on their own haplogroup so hard, it's very strange behavior.

What's next? If we find a couple I2a Arbereshe, you and your E-V13 buddies will say it must be a Proto-Albanian haplogroup because it's more widespread in Toskeria than J2b2, LOL. "There it is, it seems Toskeria was heavily E-V13 + R1b + I2a, much at the demise of the J2b2 holders" :LOL:
 
PaleoRevenge said:
You are not being honest, we have people here talking about Alexander of Macedon, Epirots and rotating everything to Illyria. If you stand by your quote, you should have no beef with people like me setting this people strait.

Let's talk about founder effect, I first read that term in 2004-05 when the first Balkan and Bosnian study came out. They claimed I2a(back then I1b) = founder effect. Let's examine that overused term. We now know, that Dalmatia and Bosnia was chock full of J2b in BCE. Do you really believe some lonely I2a-Dinaric walked in one day and it went down like this?

I2a man drifts into Bosnia, by sheer luck.
J2b: What's up bro?
I2a-Dinaric: It hurts man, the Avars burned down my home, I got nothing.
J2b: You can stay with us bro, it's cool man, here have my wife too.

Then the founder effect kicked in(magic) and the lonely I2a man out bred J2b, reducing them to nothing. Or J2b got smallpox and the I2a had all the women to himself? Do you really think like that and want to laugh at me?

Let me tell you a little secret. Founder effect is taking a knee for multiculturalism. Just government employees (geneticist) simply toeing the party line, parti Enver kind of slogan, to keep the cheese rolling ($$$). Before genetic evidence came out, anthropologist were arguing old theories were wrong, Bell Beaker, Corded Ware all these cultures were simply a change of life style, not a change of people. You know kind of like boy now deciding he is really girl and needs to get a trans operation, same absurd concept. People like me questioned that view point in disbelief. Then genetic studies came out, and people like Maciamo and Jean proved the old school right, invasions were invasions and not some kumbaya event of people sharing cultures. Here why don't you try my pants on Neolithic dude. Founder effect is disclaimer language, yes R1a replaced the previous lineages, but it could be founder effect which translates to, it looks like an invasion occurred but invasion might not be invasion, we do not challenge the official government view, please don't cut our funding P.S founder effect.
If you don't think such a policy exists, you are living life with your eyes closed.


Here we are now, a lot has been rethought and reshaped by the genetic evidence. Except in the most backward spot in Europe. Everyone has moved around, migration here, there. But not in Albania, we are the most ancient ever.
Click to expand...

They are basically claiming the same for E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705. J2b-L283 is like nope I don't want to multiply anymore you guys do your thing here are our wives. Or perhaps they massively decided to drown themselves in the Adriatic.

A partial population replacement which everything is f***** pointing to is not okay because we are all the same and every haplogroup is Albanian and Albanians are Illyrians and the whole Balkan peninsular is Illyrian. Moesians? Dacians? Thracians? Paeonians? Never heard of these folks. Dardania? Is that a thing or something? Albanians are the Natives of the Natives they are a SyNoNyM FoR NaTiViTy.
 
Some of the explanations thrown around are not well thought out. Proto-Illyrians are not the same as classical Illyrians? You are arguing discontinuity in Illyrians. At the same time you want to argue Albanian-Illyrian continuity. It's unreal how incompetent these people are.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
They are old because they are the real natives of Albania. I'm sure the J2a in the south is just as old. Do you think even....bro?
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Sorry, but you're showing us nothing to support your "genetic evidences". All you're doing is recycling your unsubstantiated personal beliefs. I don't have any more time to waste today :)
 
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