Immigration We're spending 90% of resources on 5% of refugees 10% of resources on 95% of refugees

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Refugees who stay in the Middle East live on one pound a day.

Lucky ones who have made it to Europe live on 50 pounds a day:

 
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the Belgian government made their budget

2017 expenses for hosting refugees are an estimated 1.3 billion €
then for Germany it must be around 16 billion €

most of the new refugees will cost and be a burden for Europe for a whole generation

weren't those refugees going to save European economy and provide for our pensions?

Sweden anounces an 'increased economic growth created by immigration'. It looks more like pure deficit spending.
 
bicicleur said:
weren't those refugees going to save European economy and provide for our pensions?
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I don't know who ever thought that, but it must be some politicians who don't have a clue about how the economy works and how it is going to evolve with new technologies (AI, robots). Freshly arrived refugees are always an economic burden because they need years to integrate, learn the local language, etc. before they can hope to start working and pay taxes. But that's in the best case scenario in which refugees are skilled and educated, which is almost never the case. Even the small percentages that could have the right skills will need to find jobs available, when the current trend is to lay off staff and automate jobs as much as possible. The Dutch ING Group, which according to Wikipedia was the world's largest banking/financial services and insurance conglomerate in 2012, has recently decided to cut one third of the staff in the Netherlands and Belgium, which they will replace by elaborate AI programmes. This is just the beginning. Almost all jobs will be automatable within 20 years, well before the majority of those refugees are fully integrated. Therefore they will never contribute anything economically substantial to their host countries and will in the meantime be a huge burden on the already strained public finances. Taxes will have to be raised further to finance their accommodation, food and integration courses. And that is again in the best case scenario, if thousands of these refugees don't commit crimes or terrorist attacks. As I have said before, even if only 0.1% of the refugees are hard-core Muslims that could turn into terrorists, out of 1 million+ refugees, that is still 1000 terrorists. It only took 3 terrorists to conduct the attacks in the airport and metro in Brussels. Imagine how much damage can 1000 terrorists cause. So even if 99.9% of refugees were the perfect kind of immigrants, who can pick up their host country's language in a few months, behave like perfectly upright citizens, are highly skilled in sought-after jobs, integrate easily within the fibre of their host society, and so on, but the 0.1% are terrorists, that is still 0.1% too much. And anyway everybody knows that there isn't any country in the world that can provide 99.9%, or even 50% of "perfect" immigrants if taken at random in the population. And of all countries, relatively poor and predominantly Muslim countries are least likely to provide the right type of immigrants for European society.
 
Maciamo said:
I don't know who ever thought that, but it must be some politicians who don't have a clue about how the economy works and how it is going to evolve with new technologies (AI, robots). Freshly arrived refugees are always an economic burden because they need years to integrate, learn the local language, etc. before they can hope to start working and pay taxes. But that's in the best case scenario in which refugees are skilled and educated, which is almost never the case. Even the small percentages that could have the right skills will need to find jobs available, when the current trend is to lay off staff and automate jobs as much as possible. The Dutch ING Group, which according to Wikipedia was the world's largest banking/financial services and insurance conglomerate in 2012, has recently decided to cut one third of the staff in the Netherlands and Belgium, which they will replace by elaborate AI programmes. This is just the beginning. Almost all jobs will be automatable within 20 years, well before the majority of those refugees are fully integrated. Therefore they will never contribute anything economically substantial to their host countries and will in the meantime be a huge burden on the already strained public finances. Taxes will have to be raised further to finance their accommodation, food and integration courses. And that is again in the best case scenario, if thousands of these refugees don't commit crimes or terrorist attacks. As I have said before, even if only 0.1% of the refugees are hard-core Muslims that could turn into terrorists, out of 1 million+ refugees, that is still 1000 terrorists. It only took 3 terrorists to conduct the attacks in the airport and metro in Brussels. Imagine how much damage can 1000 terrorists cause. So even if 99.9% of refugees were the perfect kind of immigrants, who can pick up their host country's language in a few months, behave like perfectly upright citizens, are highly skilled in sought-after jobs, integrate easily within the fibre of their host society, and so on, but the 0.1% are terrorists, that is still 0.1% too much. And anyway everybody knows that there isn't any country in the world that can provide 99.9%, or even 50% of "perfect" immigrants if taken at random in the population. And of all countries, relatively poor and predominantly Muslim countries are least likely to provide the right type of immigrants for European society.
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As they say just my 2c worth. I just returned from Sweden and I am not under the impression that all the jobs there need some huge skills and high level of Education. I have seen migrants working in Supermarkets filling shelves, cleaning toilets in airports, rail way stations, delivering furniture and so on. I am presuming that others do many low skilled jobs. I don't think in current situation there are any robots to do such work and its work that needs to be done if the economic wheel needs to keep on spinning. I am not demeaning these type of jobs as they are necessary for any society and it would be a disaster if people are not found to do these jobs. So one needs to see the whole picture. I know clearly locally that many sectors have a problem of finding people to work example in Restaurants, Hotels (Catering in general), same in cleansing departments and also hospitals and constrution. If locals are not found to do these jobs what is supposed to be done?
 
Maleth said:
As they say just my 2c worth. I just returned from Sweden and I am not under the impression that all the jobs there need some huge skills and high level of Education. I have seen migrants working in Supermarkets filling shelves, cleaning toilets in airports, rail way stations, delivering furniture and so on. I am presuming that others do many low skilled jobs. I don't think in current situation there are any robots to do such work and its work that needs to be done if the economic wheel needs to keep on spinning. I am not demeaning these type of jobs as they are necessary for any society and it would be a disaster if people are not found to do these jobs. So one needs to see the whole picture. I know clearly locally that many sectors have a problem of finding people to work example in Restaurants, Hotels (Catering in general), same in cleansing departments and also hospitals and constrution. If locals are not found to do these jobs what is supposed to be done?
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Compared to the local population most of the immigrants are unskilled and there is no problem with immigrants who do these jobs.
However there is a problem with attitude of all those immigrants who don't have a job and stay on the streets and on welfare in the best case, if not they dissapear in criminality.
As far as I'm concerned the same goes for locals who are unemployed.
But immigrants are aggravating and multiplying this problem to an extent that it becomes uncontrollable.

Those who claim these immigrants are a blessing are wishful thinkers severely biassed by ideology.

Did you watch the video?
Europe makes a big principle of protecting the refugees. Thereby making the hosting of immigrants so expensive that they can't pay for it any more and they have to resort to other means to repell immigrants. Then they make a treaty with dictators like Erdogan. It is pure hypocrisy. Merkel wants to win the Nobel peace price on the expense of the Germans. And she's lucky those Hungarians built that wall she despises so much.

Refugees need refuge, preferably in neighbouring countries. Everything should be done to make it possible that they can return to their home some day. That is where they belong. Not in a society with another mentality and other skills.
Those who are responsable for the situation in their home country should be beaten and severely punished.
 
I heard yesterday (I do not know f its a reality or not) that Middle easterners are much more prone to go back to their countries once there is some degree of safety, but Africans have different ideas and travel to stay. Sweden example hardly have any Africans (at least my opinion from what I seen) while the south of Europe gets mostly African refugees migrants and many other legal migrants from the east of Europe (at least locally)
 
Maleth said:
As they say just my 2c worth. I just returned from Sweden and I am not under the impression that all the jobs there need some huge skills and high level of Education. I have seen migrants working in Supermarkets filling shelves, cleaning toilets in airports, rail way stations, delivering furniture and so on. I am presuming that others do many low skilled jobs. I don't think in current situation there are any robots to do such work and its work that needs to be done if the economic wheel needs to keep on spinning. I am not demeaning these type of jobs as they are necessary for any society and it would be a disaster if people are not found to do these jobs. So one needs to see the whole picture. I know clearly locally that many sectors have a problem of finding people to work example in Restaurants, Hotels (Catering in general), same in cleansing departments and also hospitals and constrution. If locals are not found to do these jobs what is supposed to be done?
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You are right, but in 10 to 15 years's time robots will be filling up supermarket shelves, cleaning houses, and so on. Amazon warehouses already have robots filling and picking up items from shelves. They are already there. It's just a matter of time and will before supermarkets follow suit. Once humanoid robots with good dexterity become available at low costs, all low-skilled human jobs are over.

Belgium has quite a lot of experience with poor, unskilled, Muslim migrants. 25% of Brussels' population is now Muslim and Maghrebi Muslim neighbourhood like Molenbeek have typically around 30% unemployment rates, but over 50% among Muslims themselves. Most of these Muslims were born here, and many are even third or fourth generation now. Not only are they not becoming more integrated over time, but they are getting more radicalised and now turning to terrorism. I really can't imagine how or why it would be different for other impoverished, low skilled Muslims migrants or refugees. Keep in mind that the Moroccans in Belgium did not come as refugee, but as legal migrants (often through France), who were "vetted" and accepted by the authorities. How much worse could it be with refugees whose background in completely unknown and who often arrive without any ID (or with fake passports or names if they are ISIS) ?
 
Maleth said:
I heard yesterday (I do not know f its a reality or not) that Middle easterners are much more prone to go back to their countries once there is some degree of safety, but Africans have different ideas and travel to stay. Sweden example hardly have any Africans (at least my opinion from what I seen) while the south of Europe gets mostly African refugees migrants and many other legal migrants from the east of Europe (at least locally)
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African immigrants are most common in Britain (4.5% of the population), Belgium (5%) and France (6-7%), the three main colonial powers in Africa after WWI. It's not just because the historical ties makes it easier or more appealing for Africans to move there. There is also the ease of the shared language (French and English). In contrasts, Africans only make up 1% of the population in Germany and Switzerland, 1.5% in Spain and 2.5% in Italy (sources).
 
Maciamo said:
You are right, but in 10 to 15 years's time robots will be filling up supermarket shelves, cleaning houses, and so on. Amazon warehouses already have robots filling and picking up items from shelves. They are already there. It's just a matter of time and will before supermarkets follow suit. Once humanoid robots with good dexterity become available at low costs, all low-skilled human jobs are over.

Belgium has quite a lot of experience with poor, unskilled, Muslim migrants. 25% of Brussels' population is now Muslim and Maghrebi Muslim neighbourhood like Molenbeek have typically around 30% unemployment rates, but over 50% among Muslims themselves. Most of these Muslims were born here, and many are even third or fourth generation now. Not only are they not becoming more integrated over time, but they are getting more radicalised and now turning to terrorism. I really can't imagine how or why it would be different for other impoverished, low skilled Muslims migrants or refugees. Keep in mind that the Moroccans in Belgium did not come as refugee, but as legal migrants (often through France), who were "vetted" and accepted by the authorities. How much worse could it be with refugees whose background in completely unknown and who often arrive without any ID (or with fake passports or names if they are ISIS) ?
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This is the same situation when Europe and especially America where embarking on huge projects such as rail way buildings and other huge infrastructural projects. The projects used to take many years to accomplish and where manned by many people from all around the empires (as it benefits low wages and so on) Probably these people were married and had children in these countries. This is the same pattern as used to happen in classical eras with big urban centers with high economic activity such as ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome for example. Today we have New York and London. Maybe Dubai and gulf states have a better recruitment policy to avoid challenges with future integration? even though they have a very bad reputation in regards to subhuman conditions where they specifically hire people to do the particular job without ever giving a residence permit. Even though some of their populations are now outnumbered by 'Foreigners' and has been like that for a good number of years. Then there is the Chinese model, where it practically has Zero immigration and the cheap work force is widely available from people in the countryside. I am not sure which Model works for Europe.
 
Maleth said:
This is the same situation when Europe and especially America where embarking on huge projects such as rail way buildings and other huge infrastructural projects. The projects used to take many years to accomplish and where manned by many people from all around the empires (as it benefits low wages and so on) Probably these people were married and had children in these countries. This is the same pattern as used to happen in classical eras with big urban centers with high economic activity such as ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome for example. Today we have New York and London. Maybe Dubai and gulf states have a better recruitment policy to avoid challenges with future integration? even though they have a very bad reputation in regards to subhuman conditions where they specifically hire people to do the particular job without ever giving a residence permit. Even though some of their populations are now outnumbered by 'Foreigners' and has been like that for a good number of years. Then there is the Chinese model, where it practically has Zero immigration and the cheap work force is widely available from people in the countryside. I am not sure which Model works for Europe.
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what situation?
which kind of labour force lacks in Europe? explain me
if so, why so many immigrants remain on the streets without a job?

and do you know what are the conditions on the building sites and the factories or for house personel in Arabia?
they work for minimum wages, it is slavery, these peope have no rights at all, many promises are broken and in case of conflict with their employer they have no means to defend themselves
yet Arabia has no problem to recruit them, there are more than enough desperate people in the world, do you realise that?
 
Maleth said:
This is the same situation when Europe and especially America where embarking on huge projects such as rail way buildings and other huge infrastructural projects. The projects used to take many years to accomplish and where manned by many people from all around the empires (as it benefits low wages and so on) Probably these people were married and had children in these countries. This is the same pattern as used to happen in classical eras with big urban centers with high economic activity such as ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome for example. Today we have New York and London. Maybe Dubai and gulf states have a better recruitment policy to avoid challenges with future integration? even though they have a very bad reputation in regards to subhuman conditions where they specifically hire people to do the particular job without ever giving a residence permit. Even though some of their populations are now outnumbered by 'Foreigners' and has been like that for a good number of years. Then there is the Chinese model, where it practically has Zero immigration and the cheap work force is widely available from people in the countryside. I am not sure which Model works for Europe.
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I don't see what this has to do with the refugee crisis. There are plenty of construction projects in north-western Europe, but also plenty of immigrant workers from Poland, Czech Republic, Bulgaria or even Portugal. The US is bringing its cheaper labour from Mexico. The refugees aren't going to be the ones working on construction sites, as one of the reasons former communist-block countries were allowed so early in the EU was to bring cheap labour to western and northern Europe.

And any way in 20 years' time there won't be a need for cheap human labour as robots will be able to build houses or any other job. Politicians are far too short-sighted.
 
Maciamo said:
I don't see what this has to do with the refugee crisis.
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This was to your comment "Most of these Muslims were born here, and many are even third or fourth generation now". Your comment was not on the present refugee crisis

Maciamo said:
There are plenty of construction projects in north-western Europe, but also plenty of immigrant workers from Poland, Czech Republic, Bulgaria or even Portugal. The US is bringing its cheaper labour from Mexico. The refugees aren't going to be the ones working on construction sites, as one of the reasons former communist-block countries were allowed so early in the EU was to bring cheap labour to western and northern Europe.
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Refugees are refugees. None of them are given automatic citizenship and there are criterias including having a clean conduct. Refugees are not migrants (although some use it as a pretext to migrate) however they would be allowed to work during the stay. Some of them do work in other unskilled full jobs as has already been stated.

And any way in 20 years' time there won't be a need for cheap human labour as robots will be able to build houses or any other job. Politicians are far too short-sighted.
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The robot issue will not solve the current situation, even if robots will be around as soon as in 15 years time. A country will not go in a standstill just waiting for robots. Politicians might be short sighted, but what is the alternative? Would be good to know.
 
bicicleur said:
what situation?
which kind of labour force lacks in Europe? explain me
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Are you locked indoors and never go out? you never noticed jobs done by foreigners? You need me to explain to you. I already explained that example in Sweden I noticed lots of "foreigners" doing jobs and i mentioned them by name. There are more of course. And you are asking me to give you a list? You want me to explain to you?


if so, why so many immigrants remain on the streets without a job?
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Maybe they are the third and forth generation migrants that Maciamo was talking that entered your country a hundred years ago or maybe refugees who do not have citizenship. You should know better then me.

and do you know what are the conditions on the building sites and the factories or for house personel in Arabia?
they work for minimum wages, it is slavery, these peope have no rights at all, many promises are broken and in case of conflict with their employer they have no means to defend themselves
yet Arabia has no problem to recruit them, there are more than enough desperate people in the world, do you realise that?
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Exactly, I was just wondering if that would be a good model for Europe as at least those people know for sure they will NEVER get citizenship in those arabian countries. Would you prefer this system since you are complaining all the time about European politicians and their systems?
 
Maleth said:
Are you locked indoors and never go out? you never noticed jobs done by foreigners? You need me to explain to you. I already explained that example in Sweden I noticed lots of "foreigners" doing jobs and i mentioned them by name. There are more of course. And you are asking me to give you a list? You want me to explain to you?




Maybe they are the third and forth generation migrants that Maciamo was talking that entered your country a hundred years ago or maybe refugees who do not have citizenship. You should know better then me.



Exactly, I was just wondering if that would be a good model for Europe as at least those people know for sure they will NEVER get citizenship in those arabian countries. Would you prefer this system since you are complaining all the time about European politicians and their systems?
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Read what I wrote and not something else.
I didn't say there were no immigrants at work, on the contrary.
I asked you for what jobs do we need to import immigrants.

what situation?
which kind of labour force lacks in Europe? explain me
if so, why so many immigrants remain on the streets without a job?

Are you locked indoors and never go out?
 
bicicleur said:
Read what I wrote and not something else.
I didn't say there were no immigrants at work, on the contrary.
I asked you for what jobs do we need to import immigrants.
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The ones that they are doing all over the place as you confirmed you are aware of

what situation?
Click to expand...
which kind of labour force lacks in Europe? explain me
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The ones you see foreigners working at....your words "I didn't say there were no immigrants at work, on the contrary."

if so, why so many immigrants remain on the streets without a job?
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I replied already
Are you locked indoors and never go out?
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:grin: How can I be locked indoors and never go out if I notice in so many countries 'foreigners' working in hotels, bus drivers, cleaning streets, collecting garbage, construction sites, hospitals, airports, catering so and so forth. Only people who do not notice that seem to be somehow living in some sort of cocoon.
 
What are all the unskilled Europeans doing? Collecting Swedish welfare cheques? You can't tell me the "European" blue collar segment simply disappeared. If they think they are too good for unskilled labour jobs, they should be rounded up and whipped a little bit. Shape up or be shipped out, no excuse if you are white and been in European country X for thousands of years.
 
NATO ground forces should really intervene in Syria and bring peace and order there. This war has lasted for over 5 years but it may very well continue for another 45 years if left on its own. Things are seriously messed up there, everyone fights against everyone:

comment_nxPy8JFDeO0rVxqxqgfHk75hDDtXdKSA.jpg


This war has already claimed more lifes and is much worse than the Lebanese Civil War, which lasted for over 15 years:

http://123movies.to/film/incendies-5674/watching.html
 
Lefties wont be happy, until everyone in the world lives as well as Americans. Only issue is, that would take about 4.5 Earths to sustain. In the mean time, the 4 year degree is being de-valued, and costs about $60,000. Ad that value on top of working less hours in order to attend school, and we see the main issue. N more can the born and bred American finish School at 17 year old, get a full time job, and make enough to have a family, house, and car. The American dream is dying.....
 
New Englander said:
Lefties wont be happy, until everyone in the world lives as well as Americans. Only issue is, that would take about 4.5 Earths to sustain. In the mean time, the 4 year degree is being de-valued, and costs about $60,000. Ad that value on top of working less hours in order to attend school, and we see the main issue. N more can the born and bred American finish School at 17 year old, get a full time job, and make enough to have a family, house, and car. The American dream is dying.....
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You fear is paralyzing your logic. Who would have expected 100 years ago that Earth can support 2 billion of middle class on earth today? World only had 2 billion people back then. Who would have expected, that we can feed 7+ billion people and still manage to overproduce food these days? That we can produce 100 million new cars a year? That these cars burn 10 time less gasoline for same amount of HP? That we have technology to take energy straight from sun with solar panels and from atoms? That we could make plastic and fuel off corn? That we will recycle half what we produce and probably everything in 50 years? That we will make fresh water out of the ocean? That we start building things out of ubiquitous carbon?

Dude, read a bit, and you will understand that what you "see" is not reality, but a state of your frightened mind. In 17th century French textile workers burned first factory with first textile machines in fear of losing jobs to automation. And this was even way before working class becoming substantial in numbers. In 18th century some philosophers predicted unsustainable world when population will reach 1 billion, and end of the world if it reaches 2 billion. The were countless other pessimistic predictions together with antichrist rising, nuclear war, global epidemics, global hunger, meteor ending life on earth, floods and god sent end of the world.
Nothing of these scary predictions came true. World is more populous, still in good shape, and people live longer in better health and comfort.
And yet people tend to glorify the past and demonise the future, against all the signs, statistic, reality, economic and social progress, etc.
 
No, according to my university level Environmental Issues class, we are not going to be doing very well in the next 60 years. Only solution is to nationalize, and put Americans first, even if it means valuing 1 life over another. The food is all processed shit now, water is going to be scarce in places like the mid west, and maybe no one saw this coming 150 years ago before the Industrial Revolution, but that does not mean out current path is correct, or cannot be changed.
 
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