The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

There are some contras: Yamnayans were mainly R1b-Z2013, Corded Ware people was mainly R1a, Bell Beakers were R1b-L51. Another is that the CWC autosomal profile was lowered by EEF+WHG people, it's againts the steppe profile also. A third is that in Iberia 4 in 5 papers have not found steppe autosomal in ancient samples (including five R1b samples).
 
CrazyDonkey said:
For an anti-steppe hypothesis to prevail, it seems to me it has to explain a 90% population replacement in Britain by R1b IE-speaking invaders post-2000 BCE, with obvious language replacement. R1b predominates there today. If not a Yamnaya-derived migration, then what?
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Western (Iberian) Bell Beakers were not related to the eastern Bell Beakers, who were probably just Corded Ware who adopted or were converted to the Bell Beaker cultural (religious?) package. Corded Ware was both R1a and R1b (eastern Bell Beakers were primarily R1b). Corded Ware was a pottery style, not necessarily a single discrete people. As was Globular Amphora. They are likely a melange of IE speakers that trace back to the steps, both pre-Yamnaya and Yamnaya. Haak et al (2015):

Western and Eastern Europe came into contact 4,500 years ago, as the Late Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced 75% of their ancestry to the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of Europe from its eastern periphery. This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled central Europeans until at least 3,000 years ago, and is ubiquitous in present-day Europeans. These results provide support for a steppe origin9 of at least some of the Indo-European languages of Europe.
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Once again, how do you explain 90% population, and thus also language, replacement in Britain? If not from where there is a pool of the stuff (R1b), rather than a few droplets...
 
Your point was against an anti-steppe option, but I'm not against a 90% replacement from Central Europe, it is well tracked (autosomal, Y-DNA, strontium, cultural traits).
 
berun said:
Your point was against an anti-steppe option, but I'm not against a 90% replacement from Central Europe, it is well tracked (autosomal, Y-DNA, strontium, cultural traits).
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the direct link between the steppe and central europe is missing indeed, we don't have the smoking gun
but the circumstances point very strong into a steppe origin
the timing is correct, near the end of Yamna
the autosomal is steppe + EEF, which is normal as central europe was full of EEF prior to the R1b-L151 expansion
and R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L151, they stem from the same branch, they are brotherclades
 
CrazyDonkey said:
Western (Iberian) Bell Beakers were not related to the eastern Bell Beakers, who were probably just Corded Ware who adopted or were converted to the Bell Beaker cultural (religious?) package. Corded Ware was both R1a and R1b (eastern Bell Beakers were primarily R1b). Corded Ware was a pottery style, not necessarily a single discrete people. As was Globular Amphora. They are likely a melange of IE speakers that trace back to the steps, both pre-Yamnaya and Yamnaya. Haak et al (2015):

Once again, how do you explain 90% population, and thus also language, replacement in Britain? If not from where there is a pool of the stuff (R1b), rather than a few droplets...
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you seem to forget that until "recent", the british isle were "3 herder and 10 goats"! - so whats up with the Britain fixation? :)

a. check any youtube video of European population overtime and and you will notice how scarce were population in northern, and northeastern not say eastern itself, part of europe up until the beginning of the middle ages. Those things were wastlands up until "recently".

b. the upsurge of R1a/b started at the onset of climate change events (from the 5.9 kiloyear to 4.2 kiloyear) that had dramatic impacts on agriculture in europe and could very well have overall decreased local population to very low levels.
 
bicicleur said:
the direct link between the steppe and central europe is missing indeed, we don't have the smoking gun
but the circumstances point very strong into a steppe origin
the timing is correct, near the end of Yamna
the autosomal is steppe + EEF, which is normal as central europe was full of EEF prior to the R1b-L151 expansion
and R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L151, they stem from the same branch, they are brotherclades
Click to expand...

This is sort of misleading.
The same way the "steppe" could have picked up EEF, so could the EEF have picked up "Steppe" as those are seen quite early on places like Romania. Actually you have a Romania HG by 7000bc which is 80% EHG. you have 4000 BC CHG pouring into balkans. so lets be careful about that.

Cernovada I seems to be steppe a arrival by 4000bc at northeastern balkans the same way CHG were getting there as well : Boian to Gulmenita, to Pre-cucuteni, to cucuteni-Trypolie... etc etc.
So, the story can really be very complex, even to the ethnogenesis of Yamnaya itself that can have influx older than 3500bc from people coming from balkans/north black sea that could be related to their origina stock dispersal by 4900bc from south caucasus (if reich, krause and all others are correct). - The playstation version of Warloard as steppe warriors was bound to be just that, wasn't it? a juvenile game.
 
CrazyDonkey said:
Once again, how do you explain 90% population, and thus also language, replacement in Britain? If not from where there is a pool of the stuff (R1b), rather than a few droplets...
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I am not sure but I have predicted that in regions with many Megalithic sites, for example around Cork, Ireland or roughly around Aberdeen, Scotland the people in the Bronze Age will have different genetic profile, I mean more Neolithic ancestry.

Something that I had noticed but people rarely talk about is that Ogham inscriptions (dating to the 5th and 6th centuries) are more common in the region or Ireland which had the most Megalithic sites, so more common in SW.

The other thing I had said is that even before the Neolithic movements there could have been groups of HGs in Britain. Maybe they were small groups which made no impact. But the fact that we don't find them in Neolithic sites doesn't mean they didn't exist, around them.
 
Olympus Mons said:
This is sort of misleading.
The same way the "steppe" could have picked up EEF, so could the EEF have picked up "Steppe" as those are seen quite early on places like Romania. Actually you have a Romania HG by 7000bc which is 80% EHG. you have 4000 BC CHG pouring into balkans. so lets be careful about that.

Cernovada I seems to be steppe a arrival by 4000bc at northeastern balkans the same way CHG were getting there as well : Boian to Gulmenita, to Pre-cucuteni, to cucuteni-Trypolie... etc etc.
So, the story can really be very complex, even to the ethnogenesis of Yamnaya itself that can have influx older than 3500bc from people coming from balkans/north black sea that could be related to their origina stock dispersal by 4900bc from south caucasus (if reich, krause and all others are correct). - The playstation version of Warloard as steppe warriors was bound to be just that, wasn't it? a juvenile game.
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meso/neolithic R1b in Roumenia was R1b-V88

for R1b-L151 which is a brotherclade of R1b-Z2103, and with TMRCA 4.8 ka, at the end of Yamna, and - acoording to the arceological record - after several intrusions from the steppe into the the Balkan and the Carpathian Basin, and knowing that R1b-L151 spread IE languages into Europe, and R1b-L151 was not found in the Balkans before,
what do you think is the most likely scenario : they were EEF acquiring additional steppe or the other way around?
as long as no additional data become available, I stick with the 2nd option
 
bicicleur said:
meso/neolithic R1b in Roumenia was R1b-V88

for R1b-L151 which is a brotherclade of R1b-Z2103, and with TMRCA 4.8 ka, at the end of Yamna, and - acoording to the arceological record - after several intrusions from the steppe into the the Balkan and the Carpathian Basin, and knowing that R1b-L151 spread IE languages into Europe, and R1b-L151 was not found in the Balkans before,
what do you think is the most likely scenario : they were EEF acquiring additional steppe or the other way around?
as long as no additional data become available, I stick with the 2nd option
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The Catacomb sample of the recent paper are also labeled as R1b-V88, it might be an error.
 
halfalp said:
The Catacomb sample of the recent paper are also labeled as R1b-V88, it might be an error.
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I saw someone posting that those catacomb samples were tested positive for M269, so i think they were just using old nomenclature.

Although it is weird that in the paper they wrote that they were using 2016 ISOGG nomenclature, in which R1b1a2 mean R1b-V88.

So its a bit ambiguous. But it makes more sense if they are M269.
 
Ernekar said:
I saw someone posting that those catacomb samples were tested positive for M269, so i think they were just using old nomenclature.

Although it is weird that in the paper they wrote that they were using 2016 ISOGG nomenclature, in which R1b1a2 mean R1b-V88.

So its a bit ambiguous. But it makes more sense if they are M269.
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Making sense for what ? That would be some of the first M269 ever found no ?
 
halfalp said:
The Catacomb sample of the recent paper are also labeled as R1b-V88, it might be an error.
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yes, I see it now, very strange
it looks like a typo to me, 1a missing everywhere?
R1b1a2 = R1b1a1a2?
R1b1a2a2 = R1b1a1a2a2?
 
halfalp said:
Making sense for what ? That would be some of the first M269 ever found no ?
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All the R1b subclades we have seen on the bronze age steppes in other papers are descended from M269. So it would make sense if these were under M269 too.
But i am not ruling out that V88 could have been there somewhere too. Although it has not been found there yet afaik.

I don't know how many M269 have been found to date. But just because it is positive for M269 does not mean that it can't be something further downstream like Z2103 or L51.
You know, like the J2b in bronze age Jordan a few years ago, which later turned out to be J2b1 when people checked out the bam files.

This is the excerpt where you can see that R1b1a2 actually means R1b-M269, and that R1b1a2a means R1b-L23 in this paper:

KBD001 could be assigned as R1b1a2 based on the mutations: PF6399:C->T, M520:T->A, L773:A->G, PF6430:T->A, L265:A->G, L483:C->T, PF6434:A->G, PF6438:C->T, L150.1:C->T, PF6475:C->A, CTS8728:C->T, L500:C->A, PF6482:A->G, PF6495:G->A, PF6497:C->G, PF6505:G->A, M269:T->C, CTS12478:G->A. We note that this individual also has a downstream mutation L23: G->A determining haplogroup R1b1a2a, but this mutation might be caused by ancient DNA damage.


 
Saetrus said:
Oldest R1b-M269 in this study: 4700 BP
Hajji Firuz R1b-L23: 7700 BP

3000 years difference.
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Hum, if the C14 is positive for Hajji Firuz 5900 BC i have to say i'm pretty much out of idea about the origin of R1b-M269. If it was North Caucasus as i was thinking in the past, it would certainly have popped in the Caucasus paper, north or south. P297 and M478 are now pretty certain north eurasians marker. Whatever the coalescence date of R1b-M269, it doesn't really make sense that it was born south of the caucasus, when it's father and brother are north of it, but who knows ? That away and the fact that Kosovo / Albania have the highest % of R1b-M269* in the world as i think, it has to be born somewhere in the Balkans or the Black Sea shores, wich would maybe " crazy thing to think " confirm the idea of Olympus Mons that R1b-M269 is born in the Balkans and roamed from the Balkans through Anatolia into Souh Caucasus. The problem of his hypothesis is that he linked it with a certain crops, so neolithic and looking at the age of Hajji Firuz we are talking about a migration of M269 something like 10'000 BC so way before or at least at very early Neolithic.
 
bicicleur said:
yes, I see it now, very strange
it looks like a typo to me, 1a missing everywhere?
R1b1a2 = R1b1a1a2?
R1b1a2a2 = R1b1a1a2a2?
Click to expand...

It has to be or this is a crazy discovery.
 
bicicleur said:
the direct link between the steppe and central europe is missing indeed, we don't have the smoking gun
but the circumstances point very strong into a steppe origin
the timing is correct, near the end of Yamna
the autosomal is steppe + EEF, which is normal as central europe was full of EEF prior to the R1b-L151 expansion
and R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L151, they stem from the same branch, they are brotherclades
Click to expand...

indeed an smoking cannon is needed, the source for EEF could be local as suggested but EHG/CHG combo could be found right in ancient Russia. The case for Z2103 is in fact against steppes, all samples linked to Yamna are related to such clade, no L51 and no R1a to justify even CWC.
 
If it was North Caucasus as i was thinking in the past, it would certainly have popped in the Caucasus paper, north or south
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The paper only has two samples from Southern Caucasus, so 2 in 50 I think. Well, if Reich has 1000 samples from abroad we can expect 20 papers in the next 5 years, being Reich who manages... which is the name for the dolls that are moved by threats? pucinellis?
 
berun said:
The paper only has two samples from Southern Caucasus, so 2 in 50 I think. Well, if Reich has 1000 samples from abroad we can expect 20 papers in the next 5 years, being Reich who manages... which is the name for the dolls that are moved by threats? pucinellis?
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There is no M269 found at that day no ? i mean without putting L23 and Z2103 into account. I'm pretty sur if R1b-M269 was stationned in south caucasus, it would pop in Maikop Steppe or Northern Caucasus foothills in a local contexte.
 
Ernekar said:
All the R1b subclades we have seen on the bronze age steppes in other papers are descended from M269. So it would make sense if these were under M269 too.
But i am not ruling out that V88 could have been there somewhere too. Although it has not been found there yet afaik.

I don't know how many M269 have been found to date. But just because it is positive for M269 does not mean that it can't be something further downstream like Z2103 or L51.
You know, like the J2b in bronze age Jordan a few years ago, which later turned out to be J2b1 when people checked out the bam files.

This is the excerpt where you can see that R1b1a2 actually means R1b-M269, and that R1b1a2a means R1b-L23 in this paper:

KBD001 could be assigned as R1b1a2 based on the mutations: PF6399:C->T, M520:T->A, L773:A->G, PF6430:T->A, L265:A->G, L483:C->T, PF6434:A->G, PF6438:C->T, L150.1:C->T, PF6475:C->A, CTS8728:C->T, L500:C->A, PF6482:A->G, PF6495:G->A, PF6497:C->G, PF6505:G->A, M269:T->C, CTS12478:G->A. We note that this individual also has a downstream mutation L23: G->A determining haplogroup R1b1a2a, but this mutation might be caused by ancient DNA damage.
Click to expand...

all recent papers concentrate on autosomal DNA, which is fine,
but they are getting sloppy about Y-DNA, which IMO still provides interesting additional info
 
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