Is racism towards dark skin people an outcome of colonization, or a question of class

^ lynx ^ · Dec 18, 2009

He won't give up... this kind of people just can't avoid to b*tch about us it's something pathological I think.

Sirius2b · Dec 18, 2009

^ lynx ^ said:
By the way no iberian, italian or greek posted in this thread until you did... Are you going to bump all the old threads related to this matter just to moaning about us?

Haven't we promised to ignore each other in these Forums... :useless:

Well... I guess now we have both broken that agreement. :sad-2:

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That's because Hollywood movies and american tv series have spread wrong archetypes about us. We are on our right to reveal ourselves at world as we are and not as americans show us, there's no complex about it just a self-determination spirit. And I don't know why this should bother anyone.

I don't know if I could help you with your problem... :sad-2:

I don't know if I should recommend you, that before you go to bed, you recite 50 times a Mantra:

"I am descendant of Celts... I am decendant of Celts... "

... or plainly, recommend you to give up all that cr*p, stop bending the reality, and just live your life.

Which one do you think it will make you feel better, and less bitter? That is what Terapy is all about.

The problem comes everytime we said "we are not like mexicans / latin americans". Wherever or however we said this there are always mexicans who get hurt in their feelings and start to act like bitter and paranoic a**holes... why? Probably their traumas from the colonization times are still alive. Native americans always felt inferior to the european colonizers and that inferiority complex have apparently survived 200 years after the Latin American wars of Independence... truthly a sad thing.

Yes, there are stupid Mexicans that cannot live without thinking that their ancestors come "pure" from some little village in Valencia o Cataluña... the poor b*st*rds. :startled:

But you know, I am not one of them.

I do not feel inferior to the average European, much less the average Spaniard... Or, do you see me obsessed trying to "explain" how much "white" I am? No.

(If I am personally very "white" or very "dark" or something in between, you will never know, because it is a subject that does not worth 2 cents to me.)

Try again to pull that string about "inferiority complex": I guess that every time you see and Arab or a Turk, you feel that you hate him... and don't know why.

Cambrius (The Red) · Dec 18, 2009

The bottom line is that, generally, few people take kindly to being depicted as something other than what they actually are, ethnically. Unfortunately, stereotypical images projected in exaggerated forms through mass media vehicles semiotically have an enduring (and potentially psychologically damaging) effect on a large number of ethnic groups, particularly in a world where an alarming number of people are grossly undereducated and lack cultural awareness.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with correcting misconceptions about your ethnicity. It can be considered as part of a process fundamental to identity formation and actualization. One can say that it is a primal propensity all of us have in our psyche. Certainly, if I'm Scottish I don't want to be confused with being Australian or American, etc. My self perception and ethnic identity images have been Scottish from birth and you expect others to understand that, at least in a basic way.

^ lynx ^ · Dec 18, 2009

Wow, the guy just exploded. :shocked:This mexican guy certainly has serious mental problems...

You guys aren't still able to accept your past and the fact that you are mostly mestizos and native americans??

What's the problem with just saying "mexicans and spaniards are cultural and ethnicallly different" then? Is that something offensive??? Why do you get angry then??? Does that bug you so much?? Really??

Seriously dude, seek for professional help. I pity you. :disappointed:

Sirius2b · Dec 18, 2009

^ lynx ^ said:
What's the problem with just saying "mexicans and spaniards are cultural and ethnicallly different" then? Is that something offensive??? Why do you get angry then??? Does that bug you so much?? Really?? Seriously dude, seek for professional help. I pity you. :disappointed:

Is it not the 3rd time you answer that very question? :bored:

And EVERY time, I have answered: No.

(Denial of reality, is one of the unequivocal signs of a psychological problem. )

It is you, who have to look for some help. It is not just me who sees it... stop denying the reality, in the various ways you do.

Regards.

^ lynx ^ · Dec 18, 2009

Cambria Red said:
The bottom line is that, generally, few people take kindly to being depicted as something other than what they actually are, ethnically. Unfortunately, stereotypical images projected in exaggerated forms through mass media vehicles semiotically have an enduring (and potentially psychologically damaging) effect on a large number of ethnic groups, particularly in a world where an alarming number of people are grossly undereducated and lack cultural awareness.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with correcting misconceptions about your ethnicity. It can be considered as part of a process fundamental to identity formation and actualization. One can say that it is a primal propensity all of us have in our psyche. Certainly, if I'm Scottish I don't want to be confused with being Australian or American, etc. My self perception and ethnic identity images have been Scottish from birth and you expect others to understand that, at least in a basic way.

Nice explanation. But don't bother trying to explain our point he won't get it.

This poor guy it's a complete m**on who gets irritated for no reason... well apparently the fact that we don't considerer mexicans ethnically like us it's something offensive for him that make us look like racist and complex about ourselves. If that isn't moronic I don't know what it is...

Marianne · Dec 18, 2009

Cambria Red said:
.....if I'm Scottish I don't want to be confused with being Australian or American, etc. My self perception and ethnic identity images have been Scottish from birth and you expect others to understand that, at least in a basic way.

I bet that if you were Scottish your main concern would be that people don't consider you English

However I know what you mean. Japanese don't want to be considered Chinese by westerns who think that "all Asians look the same", Dutch don't like it when they are considered Germans, Greeks don't want to be confused as Bulgarians or Turkish and they don't want Skopjians to take away from them their Macedonian identity "just 'cause" , many English still think it's an insult to be called Irish-Scottish-Welsh and the later freak out when you call them English (I've learnt from my mistakes concerning this matter :grin

and Iberians don't want to be considered Latinos.

It's normal for human beings to think like that and it is has nothing to do with racism...

^ lynx ^ · Dec 18, 2009

Marianne said:
I bet that if you were Scottish your main concern would be that people don't consider you English

Afortuntely for Scots englishmen don't suffer from inferiority complex.

Sirius2b · Dec 18, 2009

Marianne said:
Since this thread was "reopened" today after 3 years I want to add that during the ancient years, Greeks (and Romans) considered themselves superior to the northern tribes. They used to call everyone who didn't speak Greek "a barbarian" and they believed that their complexion was the ideal because they didn't burn easily in the sun like northerns and at the same time they were not dark as the civilizations of Africa and Middle East they had encountered.

It is something that we have to keep in perspective: There was a time, were "Europe" from a civilizatorian point of view, was really located around the Aegean Sea.

The Minoic civilization that was one of the roots of Greek, could trace its History since 3,500 years before Christ. That is much more deeper than what many nations of Western Europe could boast.

Even something as the Megalitic constructions (e.g. Stonehenge) are really not older than the Zigurats or Piramids, or the Palace of Cnossos in Crete.

The civilization started in the Mediterranean.

LeBrok · Dec 18, 2009

Thinking that white people are the biggest racists is a big misconception. Last 500 years of Caucasian’s domination of other races and enslaving millions makes people think so. The domination wasn’t based on hatred but on economical benefits.
Racism exists in all races and cultures on Earth with fairly equal intensity.

Racism is not an European invention, it always existed everywhere in every group. Portuguese didn’t run around in Africa rounding up the slaves. The slave market existed in West African countries before they arrived, slaves were local commodities, local culture with long slave tradition. It’s common for one tribe to enslave people from other tribe, all around the world. If you like it or not, black people captured black people and sold them to Portuguese.

I’d say, racism has its roots in basic emotion like aggression against common enemy. It is exactly same emotion of hatred and aggression towards people of different religion or class. This even exists in all territorial mammal spices. One group of wolves chases away other group from their territory. Some can be surprised, but there are well documented records on video, of one group chimpanzees attacking other group, and killing some in process, just because the others were trespassing through their land.
The differences for group aggression can be quite subtle; like soccer fans from other part of same city, or migrant workers from other town stealing our jobs, etc. Of course, if differences between groups are more visible and obvious the easier to segregate the groups and unleash aggression.
Aggression and hatred towards different group has deep evolutionary roots. We are basically born to be racists, laugh at and ridicule others, romanticize and exaggerate our importance. All of it because these traits of behavior were very beneficial for survivor of our ancestors. It made the group more united therefore stronger against common enemy. Unfortunately the legacy of it hunts us now when we’re trying to build one big and happy global village.

Things like education of our kids in spirit of equality, tolerance, inclusivity will help us a lot. We should have same human rights, privileges, responsibility and opportunities. We should be equal under any political, social and religious laws. This will help us a lot, but the racism will never go away.

Did you notice that the fear place big role in it too? How come we are so scared of many different things, basically the things that we are not used to, and ready to ridicule? Things like: disfigured people, people of different races (if not growing up in multicultural country), people dressed up differently (old fashion), stranger knocking at your door, different sexual behavior, etc…
For me fear related to differences has strong evolutionary heritage, and obviously had positive role in our ancestor’s evolution.
Also this trait will hamper our global community, but this could be fixed to some extend through exposing our young to all world’s varieties.

Other thing that stands in the way of global village is that even if we are totally equal in rights, we never will be the same. We are not born as clean slate; we are born with programmed physical and mental abilities, characters, temperaments, and predispositions etc. that are stronger and more prevalent (statistically speaking) in one race than another. Different races are product of tens of thousand years of evolution in different geographical regions, and to some extend (most likely) intermingling with local hominid spices. Personally, I don’t like it at all, because it screws up my romantic view of harmonious global village, but my logic leads me to this explanation, that I can’t resist.
But maybe we’ll be fine, and in 1000 year or so, we’ll be nicely mixed into one race and culture, and racial, religious and class hatred will be a thing of a past.
Cheers

Wilhelm · Dec 18, 2009

LeBrok said:
Personally, I don’t like it at all, because it screws up my romantic view of harmonious global village, but my logic leads me to this explanation, that I can’t resist.
But maybe we’ll be fine, and in 1000 year or so, we’ll be nicely mixed into one race and culture, and racial, religious and class hatred will be a thing of a past.
Cheers

I am strongly opposed to this. I think people have the right to preserve their identity, culture, traditions, instead of making a homogeneus mixed globalized world.

Cambrius (The Red) · Dec 18, 2009

Marianne said:
I bet that if you were Scottish your main concern would be that people don't consider you English

However I know what you mean. Japanese don't want to be considered Chinese by westerns who think that "all Asians look the same", Dutch don't like it when they are considered Germans, Greeks don't want to be confused as Bulgarians or Turkish and they don't want Skopjians to take away from them their Macedonian identity "just 'cause" , many English still think it's an insult to be called Irish-Scottish-Welsh and the later freak out when you call them English (I've learnt from my mistakes concerning this matter :grin and Iberians don't want to be considered Latinos.

It's normal for human beings to think like that and it is has nothing to do with racism...

Thank you, Marianne. Insightful comments as usual...

Cambrius (The Red) · Dec 18, 2009

LeBrok said:
Thinking that white people are the biggest racists is a big misconception. Last 500 years of Caucasian’s domination of other races and enslaving millions makes people think so. The domination wasn’t based on hatred but on economical benefits.
Racism exists in all races and cultures on Earth with fairly equal intensity.
Racism is not an European invention, it always existed everywhere in every group. Portuguese didn’t run around in Africa rounding up the slaves. The slave market existed in West African countries before they arrived, slaves were local commodities, local culture with long slave tradition. It’s common for one tribe to enslave people from other tribe, all around the world. If you like it or not, black people captured black people and sold them to Portuguese.
I’d say, racism has its roots in basic emotion like aggression against common enemy. It is exactly same emotion of hatred and aggression towards people of different religion or class. This even exists in all territorial mammal spices. One group of wolves chases away other group from their territory. Some can be surprised, but there are well documented records on video, of one group chimpanzees attacking other group, and killing some in process, just because the others were trespassing through their land.
The differences for group aggression can be quite subtle; like soccer fans from other part of same city, or migrant workers from other town stealing our jobs, etc. Of course, if differences between groups are more visible and obvious the easier to segregate the groups and unleash aggression.
Aggression and hatred towards different group has deep evolutionary roots. We are basically born to be racists, laugh at and ridicule others, romanticize and exaggerate our importance. All of it because these traits of behavior were very beneficial for survivor of our ancestors. It made the group more united therefore stronger against common enemy. Unfortunately the legacy of it hunts us now when we’re trying to build one big and happy global village.
Things like education of our kids in spirit of equality, tolerance, inclusivity will help us a lot. We should have same human rights, privileges, responsibility and opportunities. We should be equal under any political, social and religious laws. This will help us a lot, but the racism will never go away.
Did you notice that the fear place big role in it too? How come we are so scared of many different things, basically the things that we are not used to, and ready to ridicule? Things like: disfigured people, people of different races (if not growing up in multicultural country), people dressed up differently (old fashion), stranger knocking at your door, different sexual behavior, etc…
For me fear related to differences has strong evolutionary heritage, and obviously had positive role in our ancestor’s evolution.
Also this trait will hamper our global community, but this could be fixed to some extend through exposing our young to all world’s varieties.
Other thing that stands in the way of global village is that even if we are totally equal in rights, we never will be the same. We are not born as clean slate; we are born with programmed physical and mental abilities, characters, temperaments, and predispositions etc. that are stronger and more prevalent (statistically speaking) in one race than another. Different races are product of tens of thousand years of evolution in different geographical regions, and to some extend (most likely) intermingling with local hominid spices. Personally, I don’t like it at all, because it screws up my romantic view of harmonious global village, but my logic leads me to this explanation, that I can’t resist.
But maybe we’ll be fine, and in 1000 year or so, we’ll be nicely mixed into one race and culture, and racial, religious and class hatred will be a thing of a past.
Cheers

Excellent thoughts...

Cambrius (The Red) · Dec 18, 2009

Wilhelm said:
I am strongly opposed to this. I think people have the right to preserve their identity, culture, traditions, instead of making a homogeneus mixed globalized world.

Indeed...

Cambrius (The Red) · Dec 18, 2009

Sirius2b said:
Is it not the 3rd time you answer that very question? :bored:
And EVERY time, I have answered: No.
(Denial of reality, is one of the unequivocal signs of a psychological problem. )
It is you, who have to look for some help. It is not just me who sees it... stop denying the reality, in the various ways you do.
Regards.

Just what reality are you talking about, that Spaniards are completely different from Mexicans? That certainly IS reality, no question at all. No Iberian or other Southern European individual posting here is denying reality in any way. However, perhaps you are? Do you construct your own pseudo-realities about others for reasons of insecurity? Engage in a little introspection, it's therapeutic...

Sirius2b · Dec 18, 2009

Cambria Red said:
Just what reality are you talking about, that Spaniards are completely different from Mexicans? That certainly IS reality, no question at all. No Iberian or other Southern European individual posting here is denying reality in any way. However, perhaps you are? Do you construct your own pseudo-realities about others for reasons of insecurity? Engage in a little introspection, it's therapeutic...

Really, man, now I understand with some other Europeans here, cannot stand you...

I guess that what is left of your little self-steem depends on the consolation, that someone (anyone) could even wish to be like you...

Oh, man!!

^ lynx ^ · Dec 18, 2009

mexican army

spanish army

Who's denying reality?

How come we're being racist for just stating reality?

If I say chinese people are ethnically different from japanese people am i being racist to either chineses or japaneses?

Seriously, If you have problem with people stating reality seek for professional help. Good luck.

^ lynx ^ · Dec 19, 2009

Sirius2b said:
Really, man, now I understand with some other Europeans here, cannot stand you...

No european here have complained about our comments but you (who aren't european).

We have no issues with other european countries and we can't say the same about Latin american: Argentinians and many center-americans can't stand mexicans... I wonder why. :innocent:

Sirius2b · Dec 19, 2009

For me is Ok that you continue to post photo after photo that shows the racial difference among Mexicans and Spaniards... the soldiers you show look surprisingly homogeneous, and I assume they all belong to the same region, from the same ethnic group, probably from the Guerrero State. Even among pure Amerindians, there are many racial types.
The truth is that we are a blended country, and what you usually see in the streets, is that blend...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On the other hand, I never denied that on average, the Spaniards are more white... I have never questioned that... but if you like, we have to see that the most famous Spanish actors of our time cannot be confounded with scandinavians, if you ask me...

I don't know if that is also the "Conspiration from Hollywood", that you so much mention.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Finally, there could be a lot of Latin American in Spain... but NOT Mexicans... we do not need to go there... there are much more Spaniards (5 or 10 times more) in Mexico, that Mexicans in Spain.
1 United States 14,264,600
2 China 7,916,4291
3 Japan 4,354,368
4 India 3,288,345
5 Germany 2,910,490
6 Russia 2,260,907
7 United Kingdom 2,230,549
8 France 2,130,383
9 Brazil 1,981,207
10 Italy 1,814,557
11 Mexico 1,548,007
12 Spain 1,396,881
13 South Korea 1,342,338
14 Canada 1,303,234
15 Turkey 915,184
16 Indonesia 908,242
17 Iran 819,799
If the average Spaniard were as obnoxious as you, I think that it will be time to recall our nationals and send you yours...

Wilhelm · Dec 19, 2009

On the other hand, I never denied that on average, the Spaniards are more white... I have never questioned that... but if you like, we have to see that the most famous Spanish actors of our time cannot be confounded with scandinavians, if you ask me...

Indeed we are closer to Scandinavians than to you...in fact we have basically nothing to do with you genetically...(Oh ! sorry I hurt you ?)
by the way Javier Bardem is from Canary Islands..not the best place to show true peninsular Iberians..
This is a European forum about european things...not about Latin Americans..please open your own Forum, and stop ruining this forum

Is racism towards dark skin people an outcome of colonization, or a question of class

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