World Cup 2022

torzio said:
IF your origins are north Italian...then most likely you are lombard
https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/DUARTE
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Thanks for the info, Torzio, but I don't have Italian ancestry and my surname Duarte is Iberian on my father's side. One of my father's brothers (Duarte) married an Italian descendant with the surname Lorenzatto (there is also the variant Lorenzato). This “Italian woman” abandoned her maiden name when she married my uncle and started to sign only her husband’s surname (Duarte), a common practice in Brazil until the 60s at least: women did not sign their maiden surname when they married, adopting only the husband's surname and, therefore, the children inherited only the father's surname. For example, my mother did not inherit the Spanish surname Viegas from my maternal grandmother and my maternal grandmother, in turn, inherited only the surname of my great-grandfather, José Maria Viegas. Aunt S is an “Italian” who was “assimilated” by my father's family and started to sign only their surname (Duarte), abandoning her ancestral Italian surname that, this way, did not pass on to my cousins. Until I met N Lorenzatto, I didn't know that there was an Italian in my family, even by adoption. As for the Lorenzato, I only know that they have been in Belo Horizonte since at least the last quarter of the 19th century and it seems that they are from Arsiero, an Italian commune in the Veneto region, province of Vicenza.
 
Duarte said:
Thanks for the info, Torzio, but I don't have Italian ancestry and my surname Duarte is Iberian on my father's side. One of my father's brothers (Duarte) married an Italian descendant with the surname Lorenzatto (there is also the variant Lorenzato). This “Italian woman” abandoned her maiden name when she married my uncle and started to sign only her husband’s surname (Duarte), a common practice in Brazil until the 60s at least: women did not sign their maiden surname when they married, adopting only the husband's surname and, therefore, the children inherited only the father's surname. For example, my mother did not inherit the Spanish surname Viegas from my maternal grandmother and my maternal grandmother, in turn, inherited only the surname of my great-grandfather, José Maria Viegas. Aunt S is an “Italian” who was “assimilated” by my father's family and started to sign only their surname (Duarte), abandoning her ancestral Italian surname that, this way, did not pass on to my cousins. Until I met N Lorenzatto, I didn't know that there was an Italian in my family, even by adoption. As for the Lorenzato, I only know that they have been in Belo Horizonte since at least the last quarter of the 19th century and it seems that they are from Arsiero, an Italian commune in the Veneto region, province of Vicenza.
Click to expand...


the old surname endings where

atto = lombard/Trentino

ato = Veneto

otto = veneto/friuli

otti = lombard


ok...thats its not italian
 
Returning to the case of dual nationality

Dual nationality allows football stars to opt for the financial side, the professional side or the affective side. See the case of Haaland:

KqexqFs.jpg

Haaland discards regret for not defending the England team: 'I'm Norwegian and I'm proud of it'

ESPN.COM.BRNovember 11, 2022Reading: 2 min.
i
Haaland celebrates after scoring for Norway over SwedenEFE/EPA/Beate Oma DahleThe striker was born in England, but chose to play for Norway, his family's country.

Erling Haaland is the great feeling of the Premier League , being the league's top scorer, with 23 goals in 17 games. And Manchester City 's number 9 could very well be preparing to play in the World Cup . That was if he chose to defend England, the country where he was born, and not Norway, which did not qualify for the World Cup.

Son of Alf-Inge Haaland, Erling was born in Leeds, the city where his father worked at the time and, therefore, is an English citizen. However, he chose Norway as his nationality, the country of his family.
And despite playing for a weak team, which will not even be in Qatar, Haaland does not regret the choice he made: "I lived here (in England) for three and a half years, four years. But I lived in Norway for a long time, so for me it was natural to choose Norway. We'll never know what it would have been like if my dad had played longer in England, maybe I would have been English. But I'm Norwegian and I'm proud of it," he said in an interview with Goal.
The striker, currently 22 years old, made his debut for the Norwegian national team in 2019, after long years passing through the country's youth teams. It was in the under-20 team, in fact, that he started to appear to the world, when he scored nine goals in a game against Honduras. For the main team, he has 23 games and 21 goals.
 
Messi surprises a flip-flop store with an order and shows humility.

m8QtBx0.jpg

Messi got sandals from a store and asked for more for his children

Lionel Messi surprised the owner of a shoe store with a message via Instagram. The store had already sent the athlete a pair of personalized sandals, and he liked them so much that he decided to order them for his children and wife as well. But what drew attention was the way Messi made the order: he wrote to the store on Instagram and introduced himself.

"Hi, I'm Leo. I wanted to thank you for the sandals you sent me. They're beautiful, and the box is really nice too. I'd like to see if you could make some for my kids, and a Paris [Saint-Germain] rose for my wife. The sizes are 33, 29 and 26. And Antonela's, 35. On me, the 42/43 fit very well."

https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/fute...hinelos-com-pedido-e-da-show-de-humildade.htm
 
Duarte said:
Returning to the case of dual nationality

Dual nationality allows football stars to opt for the financial side, the professional side or the affective side. See the case of Haaland:

KqexqFs.jpg

Haaland discards regret for not defending the England team: 'I'm Norwegian and I'm proud of it'

ESPN.COM.BRNovember 11, 2022Reading: 2 min.
i
Haaland celebrates after scoring for Norway over SwedenEFE/EPA/Beate Oma DahleThe striker was born in England, but chose to play for Norway, his family's country.

Erling Haaland is the great feeling of the Premier League , being the league's top scorer, with 23 goals in 17 games. And Manchester City 's number 9 could very well be preparing to play in the World Cup . That was if he chose to defend England, the country where he was born, and not Norway, which did not qualify for the World Cup.

Son of Alf-Inge Haaland, Erling was born in Leeds, the city where his father worked at the time and, therefore, is an English citizen. However, he chose Norway as his nationality, the country of his family.
And despite playing for a weak team, which will not even be in Qatar, Haaland does not regret the choice he made: "I lived here (in England) for three and a half years, four years. But I lived in Norway for a long time, so for me it was natural to choose Norway. We'll never know what it would have been like if my dad had played longer in England, maybe I would have been English. But I'm Norwegian and I'm proud of it," he said in an interview with Goal.
The striker, currently 22 years old, made his debut for the Norwegian national team in 2019, after long years passing through the country's youth teams. It was in the under-20 team, in fact, that he started to appear to the world, when he scored nine goals in a game against Honduras. For the main team, he has 23 games and 21 goals.
Click to expand...

I think that's a bit of a different case, Duarte. He was not brought up in England, developed no loyalty to it. It was just an accident that his father happened to be stationed there for a few years. It would be like an American child born in France because his father was a diplomat. That child would go to American or English language schools and would be brought up to give his loyalty to the U.S.

My children, because of Italian law, are Italian citizens as well as U.S. citizens. There is no question where their allegiance lies, although they love Italy. It's different in parts of Europe where immigrants or even the children of immigrants are not completely accepted. I sometimes wonder how they feel when the country's anthem is played at games.
 
Duarte said:
Messi surprises a flip-flop store with an order and shows humility.

m8QtBx0.jpg

Messi got sandals from a store and asked for more for his children

Lionel Messi surprised the owner of a shoe store with a message via Instagram. The store had already sent the athlete a pair of personalized sandals, and he liked them so much that he decided to order them for his children and wife as well. But what drew attention was the way Messi made the order: he wrote to the store on Instagram and introduced himself.

"Hi, I'm Leo. I wanted to thank you for the sandals you sent me. They're beautiful, and the box is really nice too. I'd like to see if you could make some for my kids, and a Paris [Saint-Germain] rose for my wife. The sizes are 33, 29 and 26. And Antonela's, 35. On me, the 42/43 fit very well."

https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/fute...hinelos-com-pedido-e-da-show-de-humildade.htm
Click to expand...

It's one of the reasons I love him. His humanity and goodness shines from his eyes. We have an Italian saying which I love: good (wholesome) as bread.
 
It's so strange about Argentinian Spanish. I can barely understand anything, and yet I can understand a Mexican or a Spaniard very well.

What makes it even more irritating is that the "lilt", the "intonation" seems Italian like to me, so I expect to understand it, and yet I don't at all. It's very frustrating. I'm not a linguist so I don't understand why it's like that.
 
Angela said:
It's so strange about Argentinian Spanish. I can barely understand anything, and yet I can understand a Mexican or a Spaniard very well.

What makes it even more irritating is that the "lilt", the "intonation" seems Italian like to me, so I expect to understand it, and yet I don't at all. It's very frustrating. I'm not a linguist so I don't understand why it's like that.
Click to expand...

For my ears, the best pronunciation of Spanish is that of the Mexicans and, next, the people from Madrid. The one I have the hardest time understanding is the Caribbean pronunciation (Puerto Rico, Cuba and the Dominican Republic). If Argentineans risk speaking 'portunhol' (portuñol) I will understand them without difficulty, because to my ears the ‘ Argentinian Portuñol’ looks very similar to the Galician language pronunciation, easily understood by any Brazilian.

As for an Argentinian speaking the colloquial Spanish of Buenos Aires, I won't understand much.
 
I also speak Spanish, but whenever I hear Messi, he usually yells at someone using slang I haven't heard before.
 
firetown said:
I also speak Spanish, but whenever I hear Messi, he usually yells at someone using slang I haven't heard before.
Click to expand...
he speaks argentine
Anyone who has spoken with Messi knows that he does not speak Spanish, but Argentine, or rather Rosarino. His favorite adjective is “espectacular”, which he pronounces “petacular”, consuming three letters. Instead of ‘trabajar’ he says ‘laburar’. When asked about his eldest son, Thiago, he answers proudly: “Le gusta el fúlbo”, which means “he likes soccer”, but not in Spanish, but in a South American dialect.
 
He speaks a Castilian and Catalan mix
 
firetown said:
I also speak Spanish, but whenever I hear Messi, he usually yells at someone using slang I haven't heard before.
Click to expand...

There's that too. :)

However, even when he's being interviewed, I have trouble understanding not just him, but even understanding the interviewer.

I have few difficulties with Castilian Spanish, because that's what I was originally taught. Yet, like Duarte, I find Mexican Spanish very clear and understandable.

As for Caribbean Spanish, Cuban is fine as long as it doesn't have too much slang. Puerto Rican and Central American I can handle as well, because there are so many people here who speak it,so you get used to the sounds.

Still, as I said, other than Castilian Spanish, Mexican Spanish is, for me, the easiest to understand, although I'm not sure why.

Another interesting thing that I noticed is that on the whole, Italians do much better understanding Spanish speakers than the reverse. There are lots of youtube videos that test it out and they show the same thing. I don't know why that would be.

The same is true for French. I found it extremely easy to learn to read it, and then the writing and understanding/speaking came later. The nuns made us listen to DeGaulle for pronunciation. :)
 
About the mutual intelligibility of Spanish and Portuguese and about the hardest difficulty of hispanophones to understand the lusophones than the other way around, I found the following explanation:

‘Why do Spanish speakers find it more difficult to understand Portuguese?

Have you noticed that Spanish speakers do not understand our language as we assimilate theirs? There is a linguistic explanation

The explanation for this lies in what linguistics calls asymmetric intelligibility, when speakers of different but related languages understand each other without extraordinary efforts. In general, they are languages from regions that are geographically close or have a dialectal continuity, when one or more dialects of a language mix without geographical borders — as is the case of the Romance languages of Portugal, Spain, France and Italy.

But, in asymmetric intelligibility, although both languages are intelligible, generally one group has greater difficulty in understanding than the other. It can be at the time of reading, speaking, or writing.

The explanation for the difficulty of Spaniards in understanding us possibly lies in the fact that in Portuguese, writing often does not reflect the way it is spoken. While in Spanish some letters, for example a, e, i, o, u, r, n, s, have the same pronunciation, in Portuguese their sound varies depending on the context and position within a word.

Another factor is that we have more words than Spaniards—somewhere around 400,000 versus around 100,000. It also tells us that we are much more exposed to Spanish than speakers of that language are to Portuguese. Spanish is, after all, the second most spoken language in the world, with around 400 million adherents, while Portuguese is used by no more than 250 million people.

In addition to Portuguese and Spanish, other languages have mutual intelligibility (when both fully understand each other) or asymmetric, among them: Danish, Norwegian and Swedish; Russian and Ukrainian, Malaysian and Indonesian.’
 
Duarte said:
About the mutual intelligibility of Spanish and Portuguese and about the hardest difficulty of hispanophones to understand the lusophones than the other way around, I found the following explanation:

‘Why do Spanish speakers find it more difficult to understand Portuguese?

Have you noticed that Spanish speakers do not understand our language as we assimilate theirs? There is a linguistic explanation

The explanation for this lies in what linguistics calls asymmetric intelligibility, when speakers of different but related languages understand each other without extraordinary efforts. In general, they are languages from regions that are geographically close or have a dialectal continuity, when one or more dialects of a language mix without geographical borders — as is the case of the Romance languages of Portugal, Spain, France and Italy.

But, in asymmetric intelligibility, although both languages are intelligible, generally one group has greater difficulty in understanding than the other. It can be at the time of reading, speaking, or writing.

The explanation for the difficulty of Spaniards in understanding us possibly lies in the fact that in Portuguese, writing often does not reflect the way it is spoken. While in Spanish some letters, for example a, e, i, o, u, r, n, s, have the same pronunciation, in Portuguese their sound varies depending on the context and position within a word.

Another factor is that we have more words than Spaniards—somewhere around 400,000 versus around 100,000. It also tells us that we are much more exposed to Spanish than speakers of that language are to Portuguese. Spanish is, after all, the second most spoken language in the world, with around 400 million adherents, while Portuguese is used by no more than 250 million people.

In addition to Portuguese and Spanish, other languages have mutual intelligibility (when both fully understand each other) or asymmetric, among them: Danish, Norwegian and Swedish; Russian and Ukrainian, Malaysian and Indonesian.’
Click to expand...

Duarte, you did it! You figured it out for me.

I found it fascinating that Portuguese has such a large vocabulary compared to Spanish, so I googled it, of course. :) On this list, there's a Portuguese dictionary with 800.000 WORDS! Granted, that one includes expressions. The largest Italian Dictionary lists 500,000 words (and English is at 470,000). However, it says if you add all "sayable and writable" words or expressions it's over 2 million!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dictionaries_by_number_of_words

No wonder it's so often the case that I can't find a translation for certain Italian words or expressions.

Now that I think back on all those youtube and language videos, often the Italian speakers would guess the meaning of a Spanish word because it resembles a no longer as popular Italian word for that thing. That means Italian has multiple words for certain things, with a subtle shade of difference or tone which non-native speakers wouldn't recognize. Is Portuguese the same?

I had this discussion once with someone from Russia who refused to concede that English has more words than Russian. In English the reason is that there is usually both a Saxon and a French derived word for common objects, with Celtic words thrown in for good measure.

The same thing may apply to Italian, as well as it keeping more of the original Latin? I'm going to investigate.
 
This is it, Angela: in Portuguese a word can have several synonyms, each synonym with a different etymology. Spanish speakers will understand that term that exists in both languages, but in a dialogue, will not understand terms that exist only in Portuguese, unless the context of the sentence in which the term is being used favors understanding. The following video is more entertaining than instructive (it has English subtitles). I have fun much more than I learn from situations. In the context of the video, we have four Portuguese-speaking individuals (lusophone people), one from Galicia (Spain), one from Brazil, one from the Azores (Portugal) and, finally, an individual who has lived in Poland for a long time (lives with people who speak the Polish). They play a word guessing game with each other. It's fun.

 
Asking forum members one more license to talk about the languages ​​of Messi, Maradona, Pelé, Eusebio and Cristiano Ronaldo, comparatively: In this particular video, we also have a word guessing game between a Brazilian, a Chilean, a Spanish and a Mexican. Guessing is simple and the four participants have an excellent diction of Portuguese and Spanish, which makes the perception of accents and languages ​​and the differences more interesting. Subtitles in English.

 
Jovialis said:
Not a bad theory.

The Italians, mostly from the South, were able to thrive and become more successful than many other well-established groups in the Untied States.

Though that may be because the most entrepreneurial, and individualistic South Italians left the South for greener pastures. Which in turn depletes the vitality of the region.
Click to expand...

Not only South Italians.
Many arrived in Argentina, South Brazil and California from Liguria and NW Tuscany (Garfagnana, Lunigiana, etc) not to mention millions from Lombardy and the Veneto.
 
Vallicanus said:
Not only South Italians.
Many arrived in Argentina, South Brazil and California from Liguria and NW Tuscany (Garfagnana, Lunigiana, etc) not to mention millions from Lombardy and the Veneto.
Click to expand...

Some of my relatives went to South America in the 1950s to start businesses, but they didn't settle there. Ultimately they went to the USA afterwards.
 
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