Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Greece_Neolithic vs Antonio M. et al 2019 samples.

Consider this block quote from the Antonio paper:




The closest are the Neolithic samples.

Distance to:I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
7.72962483R9____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza
8.68883767R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
9.90131809R3____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza
10.96392266R17___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
11.17630977R8____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza

Great info. Thanks, Jovialis. I was pleased to see I got a bit from Ripabianca Neolithic. :)

Modern populations are pretty close to Mycenaeans, though.

Distance to:I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
8.64348888Sicilian
8.97400691S_Italian_Sicilian
10.67560303C_Italian
13.06422596Tuscan
13.15328096Ashkenazi



Distance to:I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
10.92806936C_Italian
11.78013582Tuscan
12.59648364TSI30
12.70569557Sicilian
13.30693804S_Italian_Sicilian



Distance to:I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
11.05129857Sicilian
11.49379398S_Italian_Sicilian
12.67572483C_Italian
14.48416031Sephardic_Jews
14.61318925Ashkenazi


I can't wait to see the Classical Era Greeks from Greece and the islands.
 
Jovialis, the classical age Greek colonist from Emporion (Empuries) is the GEDMATCH kit #FM5677291, as far as I know, if you want to add it to your list. I don't know if it's still available (I don't use GEDMATCH) but it's worth checking it out.

PS. I would like to add also that Empuries was a colony of Phocaeans, from the city of Phocaea in Asia Minor. The Phocaeans (Central Greece) were mostly Dorian in their origin. A significant number of Phocic cities, however, had different origins. Nevertheless, all the cities of Phocis were gradually connected to the commonwealth because of common interests and common enemies.

So, even though we don't actually have a Dorian proper sample, if we use the Empuries2 sample as a proxy, it wouldn't seem that the Dorians were significantly different (ie, more 'northern-shifted') compared to the rest of the Mycenean cluster.
 
Great info. Thanks, Jovialis. I was pleased to see I got a bit from Ripabianca Neolithic. :)

Modern populations are pretty close to Mycenaeans, though.


I don’t want to be the usual buzzkill but pretty close is something at least under 5 as distance.
 
I don’t want to be the usual buzzkill but pretty close is something at least under 5 as distance.

Well then, I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to Central Italians, who are at a 9 for me, and as for Southern Italians and Sicilians, they're not even from the same planet? :)

K12b

3.80336693TSI30
5.63808478Tuscan
5.91498943North_Italian
6.22841874N_Italian
8.70606685O_Italian
9.07843048C_Italian
15.65395797Baleares
17.55905464Greek
17.79110733Sicilian
18.03087352S_Italian_Sicilian
18.06927779Galicia
18.52765501Extremadura
18.72087605Andalucia
18.81197491Murcia
19.46430322Portuguese
19.60699875Canarias
20.37582882Castilla_Y_Leon
20.56794594Spaniards
21.91470739Cataluna
21.99649972Spanish
22.02617534Ashkenazi
22.39748870Ashkenazy_Jews
22.67453197Castilla_La_Mancha
22.78799245Valencia
22.99709547Bulgarians
 
Jovialis, the classical age Greek colonist from Emporion (Empuries) is the GEDMATCH kit #FM5677291, as far as I know, if you want to add it to your list. I don't know if it's still available (I don't use GEDMATCH) but it's worth checking it out.

PS. I would like to add also that Empuries was a colony of Phocaeans, from the city of Phocaea in Asia Minor. The Phocaeans (Central Greece) were mostly Dorian in their origin. A significant number of Phocic cities, however, had different origins. Nevertheless, all the cities of Phocis were gradually connected to the commonwealth because of common interests and common enemies.

So, even though we don't actually have a Dorian proper sample, if we use the Empuries2 sample as a proxy, it wouldn't seem that the Dorians were significantly different (ie, more 'northern-shifted') compared to the rest of the Mycenean cluster.

He is very close to I9041

xzkB75g.png


Code:
[FONT=Verdana]FM5677291(Gedmatch)_Greek_Colonist_Empuries,2.20,0,3.49,0.06,35.23,9.17,0,0,11.48,0,38.05,0.33[/FONT]
 
Well then, I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to Central Italians, who are at a 9 for me, and as for Southern Italians and Sicilians, they're not even from the same planet? :)


Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0
 
Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0

I've ran the Dodecad K12b Italian samples against the Ancient Roman samples;

Let's move discussion to a more appropriate thread:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-V1-0?p=595087&viewfull=1#post595087
 
Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0

I used K12b because that's what was used to give a result of around 8 for some Mycenaeans to Southern Italians Sicilians.

I'm sure the data for the ancient Greeks can be converted to Eurogenes K13 for comparison.

These are my results. I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to anyone south of Lazio.
2.99839957Emilia
3.15726147Tuscany
3.38475996Liguria
3.67819249Tuscan
4.30383550Romagna
5.21252338Umbria
6.16301874Lombardy
6.22120567Marche
6.24877588Lazio
6.80908217FrenchCorsica
7.16684031Veneto
7.74483053Piedmont
8.55386462Friuli-VG
9.55260174Greek_Western-Thrace
10.37322997Greek_Central-Macedonia
10.40681507Trentino
10.56576547Vlach_Central-Macedonia
10.78628759Swiss_Italian
10.85248359Swiss-Italian
11.19184971Albanian
11.27902035West_Sicilian
11.29719134Kosovo_Albanian
11.66765186Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
12.33875196Bulgarian_Plovdiv
12.35486544Greek_Western-Macedonia
12.46015249Abruzzo
12.67167708Turk_Alexandroupoli
12.72158795Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
12.80389394Greek_Thessaly
13.07666624Vlach_North-Macedonia
13.20890916North_Macedonian
13.28875464Basilicata
13.29574368Molise
13.36336784Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
13.58006259Turk_Kazanlik
13.74839991Macedonian_East
13.87101294Greek_Peloponnese
13.87630715Bulgarian_Southwest
13.93366427Bulgarian_Central
13.99984821GR_Peloponese
14.24799284Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
14.33496425Apulia
14.46980995Turk_Kavala
14.60548869Greek_Thessaloniki
14.72815331Portuguese
14.76043021Bulgarian_Serres
14.82099524Spanish_Extremadura
15.13495953Greek_Andros_Island
15.21457854Macedonian_Southeast
15.46256447Turk_Thessaloniki


K15-I'm not even pretty close to the Veneto on this one...
3.86931518Italy_Tuscany
4.23288318Italy_Emiliaromagna
4.25635995Italy_Liguria
4.46072864Tuscan
6.50442926North_Italian
6.55881849Italy_Lazio
6.83303007Italy_Marche
7.39247590Italy_Lombardy
7.49916662France_Corsica
8.00542941Italy_Friuli
8.40202357Italy_Veneto
8.93296703Albanian-Kosovo
9.44547922Kosovo_Albanian
9.53782470Albanian-Macedonia
9.78762484Albanian-South
9.82057534Albanian-North
10.17207452Italy_Piedmont
10.84424732Italy_Trentino
11.25753970West_Sicilian
12.44466151Greek_Thessaly
12.56755744Macedonian_2
12.64764850GR_Peloponese
12.91083653Greek
13.21623623Italy_Abruzzo
13.88518275Italy_Apulia

For K13 vs K15, how do I decide which is "better" or closer to the truth? Is it the one where I like the results better?

Of maybe it's semantics. Is a distance of 8 great? No, but it's the best score the Mycenaeans get with any modern population, and better than I get with some modern Italian populations. We'll see if the guys can change the data for the ancient Greeks to Eurogenes K13 and K15 if they have a chance to see if they're closer or further away.
 
I used K12b because that's what was used to give a result of around 8 for some Mycenaeans to Southern Italians Sicilians.

I'm sure the data for the ancient Greeks can be converted to Eurogenes K13 for comparison.

These are my results. I guess I'm not "pretty close" to anyone south .
2.99839957Emilia
3.15726147Tuscany
3.38475996Liguria
3.67819249Tuscan
4.30383550Romagna
5.21252338Umbria
6.16301874Lombardy
6.22120567Marche
6.24877588Lazio
6.80908217FrenchCorsica
7.16684031Veneto
7.74483053Piedmont
8.55386462Friuli-VG
9.55260174Greek_Western-Thrace
10.37322997Greek_Central-Macedonia
10.40681507Trentino
10.56576547Vlach_Central-Macedonia
10.78628759Swiss_Italian
10.85248359Swiss-Italian
11.19184971Albanian
11.27902035West_Sicilian
11.29719134Kosovo_Albanian
11.66765186Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
12.33875196Bulgarian_Plovdiv
12.35486544Greek_Western-Macedonia
12.46015249Abruzzo
12.67167708Turk_Alexandroupoli
12.72158795Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
12.80389394Greek_Thessaly
13.07666624Vlach_North-Macedonia
13.20890916North_Macedonian
13.28875464Basilicata
13.29574368Molise
13.36336784Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
13.58006259Turk_Kazanlik
13.74839991Macedonian_East
13.87101294Greek_Peloponnese
13.87630715Bulgarian_Southwest
13.93366427Bulgarian_Central
13.99984821GR_Peloponese
14.24799284Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
14.33496425Apulia
14.46980995Turk_Kavala
14.60548869Greek_Thessaloniki
14.72815331Portuguese
14.76043021Bulgarian_Serres
14.82099524Spanish_Extremadura
15.13495953Greek_Andros_Island
15.21457854Macedonian_Southeast
15.46256447Turk_Thessaloniki


K15-I'm not even pretty close to the Veneto on this one...
3.86931518Italy_Tuscany
4.23288318Italy_Emiliaromagna
4.25635995Italy_Liguria
4.46072864Tuscan
6.50442926North_Italian
6.55881849Italy_Lazio
6.83303007Italy_Marche
7.39247590Italy_Lombardy
7.49916662France_Corsica
8.00542941Italy_Friuli
8.40202357Italy_Veneto
8.93296703Albanian-Kosovo
9.44547922Kosovo_Albanian
9.53782470Albanian-Macedonia
9.78762484Albanian-South
9.82057534Albanian-North
10.17207452Italy_Piedmont
10.84424732Italy_Trentino
11.25753970West_Sicilian
12.44466151Greek_Thessaly
12.56755744Macedonian_2
12.64764850GR_Peloponese
12.91083653Greek
13.21623623Italy_Abruzzo
13.88518275Italy_Apulia

For K13 vs K15, how do I decide which is "better" or closer to the truth? Is it the one where I like the results better?

Of maybe it's semantics. Is a distance of 8 great? No, but it's the best score the Mycenaeans get with any modern population, and better than I get with some modern Italian populations. We'll see if the guys can change the data for the ancient Greeks to Eurogenes K13 and K15 if they have a chance to see if they're closer or further away.


K13 is clearly more reliable and stable than K15.

Ancient Greek samples (Mycenaean) were uploaded to Gedmatch a long time ago and their results have been published several times.

Why should you be close to the Veneto? Veneto is one of the regions with perhaps the greatest internal differences, having Veneto maritime coasts, plains, hills, Alps and even linguistic minorities, and bordering with the the Germanic and Slavic world. This kinda variabilty is also reflected in the genetic results. So it is obvious that a Veneto average can vary a lot, and it depends on which samples from Veneto are used to represent it.


Just my humble opinion.
 
I thought better of it.

I'll just say that there's nothing humble about your delivery.

You don't think a distance of 8 is "pretty close". Great. You're entitled to judge for your own purposes what is "pretty close" for a modern comparison to ancients.

I'll repeat: The closest modern population to the Mycenaeans, at a respectable distance of 8 in Dodecad, given the age of the samples, is Southern Italians/Sicilians.

The relationship is there, and nothing will change it.
 
There's nothing humble about your delivery, I must tell you.

You don't like any of the results from any of the calculators or any of the papers, really.

I think you should quit your day job and do your own research and analyses.

I'm waiting for your revelations with baited breach.


I think Argumentum ad hominem could be avoided, Angela.

Of course, there is nothing humble in my opinion. I was just sarcastic.
 
I think Argumentum ad hominem could be avoided, Angela.

Of course, there is nothing humble in my opinion. I was just sarcastic.

We can do without the sarcasm too.

My comment was absolutely accurate, as you have now confirmed.

If you're going to go down that road, expect a response.
 
We can do without the sarcasm too.

My comment was absolutely accurate, as you have now confirmed.


At least I have a sense of humor about myself. You've changed your message, admitting in this way you were wrong.
 
At least I have a sense of humor about himself. You've changed your message, admitting you were wrong.

I haven't changed my opinion at all, or admitted I was "wrong" about anything. (Not that I don't when I am). I said you're entitled to your own opinion. There's a difference.

"I thought better of it.

I'll just say that there's nothing humble about your delivery.

You don't think a distance of 8 is "pretty close". Great. You're entitled to judge for your own purposes what is "pretty close" for a modern comparison to ancients.

I'll repeat: The closest modern population to the Mycenaeans, at a respectable distance of 8 in Dodecad, given the age of the samples, is Southern Italians/Sicilians.

The relationship is there, and nothing will change it."

My comment that "I thought better of it" was about a rather blistering post which I deleted.

I don't think we need to carry on this unedifying display in front of the board any longer.

You have something to say to me personally, do it in private.
 
my results for K13 ancients

Distance to:TorzioK13
5.14279107IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1
7.21271793CL36_collegno_italy_longobard
7.47605511SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
7.54191620SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard
7.62072831RISE254_Szazhalombatta_Foldvar_Hungary_3631_years_GHIJK_Z12203_J1c9
7.71743481CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
7.83749960DA195_Hungary_Scythian
8.02793871SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
8.32675207DA199_Late_Medieval_Hungary
8.40845408SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
8.55622580SZ37_szolad_hungary_longobard
8.69714321SZ32_szolad_hungary_longobard
8.70789871CL23_collegno_italy_longobard
9.38891900SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard
9.47101367SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
9.66252038IA_Civitavecchia_R474
9.66802979SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century
10.28309292I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1_2
10.32287751scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce
10.45008134CL94_collegno_italy_longobard
10.54462896CL57_collegno_italy_longobard
10.83154190ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC
11.10855526SZ18_szolad_hungary_longobard
11.34702604CL47_collegno_italy_longobard
11.45461916I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1


27.2SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard23.2IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R117.8DA195_Hungary_Scythian15.2SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard14.2SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard2.2CL53_collegno_italy_longobard

Target: TorzioK13
Distance: 1.0498% / 1.04976470 | ADC: 0.25x
 
Distance to:trentinoClesK13
4.99492743SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
6.58473993IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1
6.88456970SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century
7.26103298ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC
7.46621725IA_Civitavecchia_R474
7.58897226SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
7.81855485RISE254_Szazhalombatta_Foldvar_Hungary_3631_years_GHIJK_Z12203_J1c9
8.14178727I7424_morisco
8.14660666CL36_collegno_italy_longobard
8.25780843I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1
8.84250530SZ37_szolad_hungary_longobard
8.90200539I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1_2
9.50753385CL23_collegno_italy_longobard
9.52839966I7424_morisco2
9.57641895I12647_iberia
9.73838282CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
9.77061411I12647_iberia2
9.95622418SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard
10.27542700SZ32_szolad_hungary_longobard
10.51157933scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce
10.66541138I12516_iberia
10.93564813SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
10.94344096IA_Civitavecchia_R473
11.32243348CrusaderSI41KingdomofJerusalem
11.95757919SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard


36.4ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC36.2SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century11.8CL49_collegno_italy_longobard9.4SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard4.8SZ6_szolad_hungary_longobard1.2SZ31_szolad_hungary_longobard0.2SZ20_szolad_hungary_longobard

arget: trentinoClesK13
Distance: 0.9534% / 0.95336658 | ADC: 0.25x
 
How do we know the Dorians brought Z2103 into Greece, we don't have a sample from them. The classical age Empuries2 sample plots right into the Mycenean cluster.

Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.
 
Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.

Yes, Greek colonists from Phocaea (Ionia) founded Massalia (modern-day Marseille, in France), Emporion and Rhoda (modern-day Empúries and Roses, in Catalonia, Spain) and Alalia in Corsica. They clashed against the Etruscans, but there is evidence that many Greek Phoceans artists and merchants had settled in southern Etruria after the Persian conquest of Ionia.
 
Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.
Yeah, but Phocaea itself was founded by Phocian Greeks from central Greece, under the leadership of Athenians. Identity wise they can prove to be a mess, bearing in mind that the original Phocians were Dorians, but Phocaea of Asia Minor was Ionic-speaking. And above all that, Phocaea was essentially within the Aeolic region (of Asia Minor), or at the very least on the borders of it. As for the rest, we all agree, we are desperate for Classical Greek samples from a number of regions, and some more Mycenaeans shouldn't be out of the equation.
 

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