The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers

holderlin said:
Not surprised to see R1b in bronze age Armenia as it comes with some EHG and is the perfect spot and time for the arrival of the Anatolian languages, keeping in mind that neolithic Armenia was all L2(?) Kura axes however is highly unlikely to be IE. Probably Hurrian or Caucasian or ancestral to those languages. Also as we move to the late Bronze age in Armenia we see a shift towards the steppe, which is consistent with ever increasing steppe influence as we move through the bronze age.

We'll have to see what the P* in neolithic Iran is. If it's R1b that could be a surprise to some, but it shouldn't be. R2 at this point would make more sense.
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No surprise to see in Armenia the same clade that appear among yamnayans two hundred years after? In a culture (Kura-Araxes) related to Maykop? And knowing that what we know by sure now is that there was a migration northwards? By simple chance the presence of R1b in Yamnaya is debt to such migration instead of EHG going south: because the demographical difference is high enough and the expansive nature of the neolithic are giving more numbers.

Kurgans appear in Anatolia around 2000 BC, the time for Anatolian languages... so to late for that.

Another (big) problem doing this R1b clade being a paleolithic migrant is that its TMRCA is after Armenia was already populated by Neolithics...
 
Alan said:
So has Kartvelian on PIE. Also the influence of Proto Uralic and vica versa seems to be mainly on the Indo_Iranian branch, I haven't heard much of an influence on other subgroups.

Good and if ANE could have brought multiple languages, why shouldn't this be the case with CHG like or even AF? Just food for thoughts.

What all Indo Europeans have in common is a ANE like admixture, be it through CHG, Iranian Neolithic or EHG admixture. Of course we can't exclude WHG as source but it just doesn't seem that plausible to me.

I have red a bit about it and most similarities between Uralic and Indo European seem to be with the Indo_Iranian group. For example I don't know of any Uralic type influence on Hititte, which is the most archaic known Indo European language.

As I have already said, I believe the Steppes could be the origin of the merging point, but the Steppes could as well be just a second homeland for a large part of the Indo European subgroups. But than we can't even be sure were Kartvelian and Uralic originated. Kartvelian for example seems to be rather Anatolian_Farmer derived tongue. While Uralic could as well originate in South_Central Asia, based on the origin of N Haplogroup.

Every language family in this world started as a creole of two or many other imo. But let's agree to disagree. Maybe it wasn't a creol language true.
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epoch said:
Proto-Uralic has had a large influence on PIE and vice versa. A large number of linguistics think it is possibly of the same origin as PIE. Take a look at what exactly is related, it seems very deep.

First, ANE brought forth a number of languages, some of which were isolates: The American-Indian languages. Secondly, we don't know how languages originated. Take for instance New Guinea where Papua's speak over 850 languages, with large families as well as dozens (!) of isolates. Some larger families have ties with the world around them.

On the basis of what exactly do you exclude WHG as source?

But the relation between PIE and proto-Uralic runs very, very deep. Read about it.

No, the best hypothesis is a language originating between proto-Uralic and the Caucasus. And not just because influences of those, also because PIE roots for animals and certain trees limit its possible places or origin. So the steppe origins is independently derived from archaeology, language roots and language contacts. As we now have seen DNA supports that.

Apart from that: PIE was not a creole language, as these are simplified languages: i.e. non-speakers adapt a simplified version and make it their own. PIE was highly complicated indicating it originated from native speakers.
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Interesting discussion. Of course things are not black or white, matter is very complex.

It can be of significance for this discussion that ancient DNA samples relating Kurgan Bronze age have the closest link with today's living Komi-Zyrians, Udmurts, Chuvash and Tatars in the Volga-Ural area, nobody of which speak an Indo-European language (Komi-Zytian and Udmut languages belong Uralic family; Chuvash and Volga-Tatar languges belong Turkic family).
 
berun said:
No surprise to see in Armenia the same clade that appear among yamnayans two hundred years after? In a culture (Kura-Araxes) related to Maykop?
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No not at all, nor do I care one way or another. Remember that in particular.

There's older R1b all over the steppe thousands of years before Kura Axes. Not to mention among the oldest WHG in Italy too. These earlier steppe cultures are no doubt precursors to Yamnaya and I don't know how many times I have to repeat this on deaf ears. By archaeological standards there is remarkable continuity from Samara to Yamnaya. No one is making this shit up. Keep in mind Neolithic Armenia was L2, and it's not until bronze age that this R1b shows up, along with a pull towards the steppe. This is consistent with the apparent steppe/Iranian diffusion beginning in the chalcolithic.

berun said:
And knowing that what we know by sure now is that there was a migration northwards?
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Yes, even still.

berun said:
By simple chance the presence of R1b in Yamnaya is debt to such migration instead of EHG going south: because the demographical difference is high enough and the expansive nature of the neolithic are giving more numbers.
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I don't know what you're saying here, but no I don't think Yamnaya R1b came from Iranian Chalcolithic for all the same reasons I've already stated. If we see a large set of R1b in Maykop or something like that then I'll change my tune, but I think we'll see J as expected.

berun said:
Kurgans appear in Anatolia around 2000 BC, the time for Anatolian languages... so to late for that.
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Hittite actually needed to separate from PIE waaaaaaaaay before 2000BC for anything to make sense so the simple Kurgans in Anatolia = Anatolian languages was never adequate. The gradual infiltration of archaic IE much earlier actually makes perfect sense, which is exactly what we're seeing in BA Armenia.
 
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berun said:
Quite funny. If so it could be thought that the later EMBA cultures were "Cordedwareized" and "R1aized"?

Well, let's add another yellow alarm.
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Why? We don't know all the history of migration from Yamnaya to India. If you notice we are just learning and exploring. We don't even know what was the population of West Yamnaya or North-West Yamnaya. What is obvious that we have Steppe input into India and Europe but we don't have Indian input into Steppe and Europe.
 
berun said:
No surprise to see in Armenia the same clade that appear among yamnayans two hundred years after? In a culture (Kura-Araxes) related to Maykop? And knowing that what we know by sure now is that there was a migration northwards? By simple chance the presence of R1b in Yamnaya is debt to such migration instead of EHG going south: because the demographical difference is high enough and the expansive nature of the neolithic are giving more numbers.

Kurgans appear in Anatolia around 2000 BC, the time for Anatolian languages... so to late for that.

Another (big) problem doing this R1b clade being a paleolithic migrant is that its TMRCA is after Armenia was already populated by Neolithics...
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Kura Axes had some(not a lot) of EHG ancestry. It's totally possible the R1b in Kura Axes is of EHG origin and the R1b in Yamnaya is also of EHG origin.
 
Tomenable said:
Even in the Middle East alone, there could be few independent starts:

"Farming invented twice in Middle East, genomes study reveals":

http://www.nature.com/news/farming-invented-twice-in-middle-east-genomes-study-reveals-1.20119
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Yes, It happened more times that we realised just recently. I even found, watching YouTube :) Amazon Jungle tribe in walf way to agriculture. Women were farming some starchy root but men were still hunting. Their base diet was already mostly starches with only addition of game meat.
Take notice that in all these known cases of agriculture, the invention of farming was local, "self grown" for centuries and millennia, and not imported knowledge. Pan intended. :)
 
Tomenable said:
Thanks for this info! Are you sure that the Non-R1a sample from Xiaohe was indeed T1a1+?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184
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2NkRVmt.jpg
 
Angela said:
I don't recall mixing up dates or saying that the original Basal Eurasians were always farmers. No group was "always farmers". All groups were originally hunter gatherers. What I was speculating is that the group or groups which developed agriculture had very high Basal Eurasian percentages.
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I wasn't talking about you in particular. There were a few different proposals making references to things that were inconsistent with the dating or didn't make sense in this way.

We just need more is all. Just one more paper. Yeah. That's all, just a couple older samples from Iran and the Levant.......and one mesolithic from India......just one . That would do it.......maybe.......for while. BUT WE NEEEEEEED MOAR NOOOOOOOOW

I'm not nerdy enough and don't have enough time to run stats for months in between papers. I become a cosmic monster who consumes ancient DNA with an unappreciative lust and sloppiness. Much like Galactus consumes planets and NEEDS to keep feeding to maintain his life force.
 
holderlin said:
No not at all, nor do I care one way or another. Remember that in particular.

There's older R1b all over the steppe thousands of years before Kura Axes. Not to mention among the oldest WHG in Italy too. These earlier steppe cultures are no doubt precursors to Yamnaya and I don't know how many times I have to repeats this on deaf ears. By archaeological standards there is remarkable continuity from Samara to Yamnaya. No one is making this shit up. Keep in mind Neolithic Armenia was L2, and it's not until bronze age that this R1b shows up, along with a pull towards the steppe. This is consistent with the apparent steppe/Iranian diffusion beginning in the chalcolithic.



Yes, even still.



I don't know what you're saying here, but no I don't think Yamnaya R1b came from Iranian Chalcolithic for all the same reasons I've already stated. If we see a large set of R1b in Maykop or something like that then I'll change my tune, but I think we'll see J as expected.



Hittite actually needed to separate from PIE waaaaaaaaay before 2000BC for anything to make sense so the simple Kurgans in Anatolia = Anatolian languages was never adequate. The gradual infiltration of archaic IE much earlier actually makes perfect sense, which is exactly what we're seeing in BA Armenia.
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In Bronze Age J2b and E1b also appear in Armenia. Also this site http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml considers L1a samples as 'Copper Age/Chalcolithic'

The location of the L1a samples is this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex

The location of the Kura-Araxes R1b sample is this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalavan

In middle Bronze Age R1b is found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerkin_Getashen

In middle Bronze Age E1b appears in the same place

In late Bronze Age J2b appears near R1b and E1b https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norabak
 
Tomenable said:
Even in the Middle East alone, there could be few independent starts:

"Farming invented twice in Middle East, genomes study reveals":

http://www.nature.com/news/farming-invented-twice-in-middle-east-genomes-study-reveals-1.20119
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Several waves of Migration. I think so too. The first EEF wave to Europe must have been mainly Y-Haplogroups G, 10 000 ybp from Near East, it's pretty clear. But R1b-M269>L23 followed few thousand years after , the L23 mutation is 6500 years old, this is still Neolithic age. The problem is where did they come from?
 
Originally Posted by holderlin No not at all, nor do I care one way or another. Remember that in particular.

There's older R1b all over the steppe thousands of years before Kura Axes. Not to mention among the oldest WHG in Italy too. These earlier steppe cultures are no doubt precursors to Yamnaya and I don't know how many times I have to repeats this on deaf ears. By archaeological standards there is remarkable continuity from Samara to Yamnaya. No one is making this shit up. Keep in mind Neolithic Armenia was L2, and it's not until bronze age that this R1b shows up, along with a pull towards the steppe. This is consistent with the apparent steppe/Iranian diffusion beginning in the chalcolithic.

I don't know what you're saying here, but no I don't think Yamnaya R1b came from Iranian Chalcolithic for all the same reasons I've already stated. If we see a large set of R1b in Maykop or something like that then I'll change my tune, but I think we'll see J as expected.

Hittite actually needed to separate from PIE waaaaaaaaay before 2000BC for anything to make sense so the simple Kurgans in Anatolia = Anatolian languages was never adequate. The gradual infiltration of archaic IE much earlier actually makes perfect sense, which is exactly what we're seeing in BA Armenia.
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There was ancestral R1b in the Samara and and Khvalinsk cultures of course, but now we have another ancestral R1b guy in Armenia before any IE migration to Armenia, so we can choose now from were the Yamnayan and Armenian Z2103 popped up, and this one appears 6300 years ago, when Armenia was recently occupied by Neolithic farmers and herders; just a bottleneck effect over some R1b pioneer herders could explain Z2013 in Yamnaya. Also there is the statistical problem that demographics and the migratory sense is pointing just the opposite direction.

Of course Anatolian languages are the most divergent and they might be older, but you can check Italian and French how they have evolved from Latin and how they are yet near languages, you only need another substrate. It's necessary to don't dimiss archaeology: by 3000 BC Troy I-III was flourishing till a cultural disruption about 2100-1850, and kurgans with chariots appear in east Anatolia by 2300 BC along new ceramics; in fact by 3000 BC the cultural influences came from Uruk, and more precisely in Armenia these influences came from Syria (ware), what is worst, the Kura-Araxes in Armenia arrived in 3350-3000 from the east. As for language the Assyrian docs put no-IE Hattians in Anatolia in the III millenium and their Hattic language was yet written by IE Hittites in the half of the II millenium, so recent was the IE migration by then.

By the way it was good that somebody realized that the paper was forgetting the R1b guy data, which also doesn't receive any analysis in the paper... usualy I see how some authors try to get from 2+2 a 10 or even -2, but that its quite new for me.
 
Voyager said:
Several waves of Migration. I think so too. The first EEF wave to Europe must have been mainly Y-Haplogroups G, 10 000 ybp from Near East, it's pretty clear. But R1b-M269>L23 followed few thousand years after , the L23 mutation is 6500 years old, this is still Neolithic age. The problem is where did they come from?
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R1b-M269 first pops up in Western Europe 4600 years ago. It was absent in EEF. No other Neolithic people came to Western Europe besides EEF, then in the Bronze age Steppe people with R1b came. This is all old news.
 
bicicleur said:
I'm starting to think the same, Basal Eurasians were G people or it came from India with that H2 which appears in both Levant, Anatolian and European Neo.
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I already said this in the past various times, I do believe also that Basal Eurasian is connected to G, makes sense if you look at the yDNA tree.

Basal Eurasian is the first branch to split up from the main Eurasian body.

So is G from HIJK. Basal Eurasian => G was found in Iran_Neo too. And I think these ar ethe guys who brought Basal Eurasian and they must have evolved somewhere on the southern coast of Iran.

I still have my doubts that E1b1b or even E in general came from Africa, if that was the case we would see stronger signal between Sub Saharan Africans and Natufians than SSA to other Eurasians however SSA shares as much with Natufians as it shares with other Eurasians. This indicates that it can't have come from Africa, while on the opposite hand we do have Eurasian signals already in Mota and it is around ~4%.
 
bicicleur said:
If I remember well, we can expect some DNA from that area as well.
But if there is such leak, I'd take it with a big pinch of salt.
There may have been some R1a-Z93 in India prior to Indo-Aryans, but I don't expect any of that at the source of the Indus civilization.
If so, it will be the biggest surprise of the year, and there have allready been a few now.

I think R1a-Z93 is a bit to young for the roots of the Indus civilization.
If there is one scenario which has been confirmed by DNA till now, it is about the origin of IE.
It is not compatible with R1a-Z93 at the roots of the Indus civilization.
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This can only mean that Z93 was already there prior to Indo Europeans, or Harrapans have more connection to Indo Europeans as we previously thought.
 
epoch said:
Take a look at this: Are these loan words?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages#Some_possible_cognates

Furthermore, the theory for instance linguists such as Kortlandt are pushing is that PIE is derived from a common Indo-Uralic stem, on a Caucasian substrate. Almost all serious scenario's have two major influences: Uralic and Caucasian. Hence the positioning of the original Urheimat roughly in between these.
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the Indo_Uralic theory is a controversial theory, also the theory actually supports the idea that Uralic and Indo European came from South_Central Asia, and this is what I actually said, it could very well be that EHG and even the whole Indo European package came from South_Central Asia.







E
HG is partly WHG, so maybe that was a vector. Frankly, I don't have a clue. But I wouldn't connect ANE that strictly to a language group if I were you. Proto-Uralic is not connected to all American Indian languages for that matter.
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Let's let this possibility open but I don't think WHG will be the source.


"Watar", ne- for negation, "me" for I, me, etc. See the list above.
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How do we know that these are Uralic loanwords?? What about see being Indo European loanwords in Uralic? Nevermind.



Haplogroups are not languages, even as they sometimes, or even often, have a relationship. Furthermore, if you want to propose a different origin, make the case for it.
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Have you actually been following this thread from the start I did make my proposals in many posts. 1. PIE is from the Iranian Plateau, reached the Steppes via the Caucasus (influx from Iranian Plateau to Caucasus and Steppes supported by archeology) or via East of the Caspian. In this scenario Indo European might have evolved on the Iranian Plateau and the Steppes could be a secondary homeland to the major European branches of Indo European, while Hittite didn't even cross the Steppes but directly moved into Anatolia.
Or Indo European evolved after some Iran_Calcolthic dudes reached the Steppes and merged with the EHG of Samara.

2. Indo European could have a South_Central Asian origin in itself and reached the Steppes via East of the Caspian. If that is not the case at least the EHG individuals probably came from South_Central Asia and reached Samara via the East Caspian route.

Note South_Central Asia in this case for me is the region between Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan.
 
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