Agree. Balkans were the melting pot for at least a third of all known haplogroups. Knowing the Balkan ancient picture would answer a huge number of historical puzzles.
Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?
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Hmmm, I agree with Aspurg in most of the sections but in some, not. Particularly here about V-13 and Vinca's, I agree with you with some differences. I have no doubt Vinca's had some upper EV-13, but they extended north till romanian Turdas site horizon II (hence the name Vinca-Turdas culture) where some very important things happened, in the archaeologically speaking point of view. Turdas horizon III is contemporary with pannonian Starcevo-Cris culture. Basically IMHO, EV-13 origin of 'explozion' is here in Turdas/intraCarpathian Transylvania starting in layer/horizon II and a peak on horizon I (which corespond with the rising of the 'thracians'). To shorten, first Starcevo-Cris inhabitants (? haplo) admixed with Vinca's generated the EV-13 Balkan thracian story. From there, under steppe pressure or not (?), they expand south. That's my opinion. On the other hand, I believe Vincas came from S/SE, they were EV-13 haplo on a different route than the North pannonian non E haplo Starcevo-Cris other population.
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Without getting involved on the genetic part of the conversation, just wanted to contribute by saying that Pelargos/Pelasgian, Ciconian, Cauconians, Leleges, all mean “storks”.
“storks?, what the heck those characters are ? What keyboard/language you used ? I saw this many times here...
Hawk
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E-V13 is a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age intruder in Romania.
Yes and no. The biggest problem noted along those debates is the GENERIC nomination of EV-13, + or -. Because there are EV-13 subclades and subclades, with different ages. So, your statement ''E-V13 is a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age intruder in Romania'' is at least improper if not totally inaccurate. 'Pure' EV-13 from YFULL is: ''formed 7800 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp''. It is so hard to put some (+) or (-) before or after EV-13 to clarify the subject ? Back to my opinion, all I was said that the thracians had theirs origins in Turdas culture horizon III from where they spread all over the Balkans. I can't bond a people to a sole/unique Haplo because we all know a culture cannot be identified by only one haplo. I believe, Turdas EV-13 subclade(s) got a serious IE infusion from K?r?s/Cris culture from West and generate a very viable population, the thracians. Only my 2 cents.
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We have the Greeks and Illyrians as well, Epirotans, Macedonians.
Aspurg
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There is nothing to agree or disagree, anyone who even phantoms connecting the E-V13 spread with Vinca culture spread is either a troll, hopelessly dumb, or he has some other motives.. I do not bother to read verbal diarrhea of noUseForAname.. E-V13 is EBA hg and all of these cultures you mention are irrelevant for E-V13 spread.. Plus they were dominated by the G2a clades and even C-V20, H2 must have been more common there than E-V13..
Man, do you think you're some kind of a superior boss offending anyone who's not on your side ? Is that a DISCUSSION forum, or what ? Do you monopolize the whole DNA subject here and all others are stupid ? I don't want the moderator bane you for the ongoing insults because you are really a pro here and we learn a lot from your's debates. But if you want a gipsy style word fight, you will get it soon. I told you, I have this beliefs about EV-13 and thracians and you could not provide sufficient credible arguments to sustain that EV13 is EBA. EV-13 is FORMED about 8000 ybp, well beyond the EBA, despite the TMRCA of 4900ybp (which can be pushed further back in history whensoever new ancient DNA will be found) and you just don't cope with that matter. Off course,it seems you don't read whole what others said, because right above I wrote something analytical about this ''EV13'' aspect.
Aspurg
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Just because it is a free discussion it doesn't mean somebody should get away posting nonsensical content at least not in a serious discussion. What this guy posted was nonsensical or more colloquially "stupid". Does posting nonsense make one look "smart" or "stupid"?? It is not about throwing insults, rather stating facts..
Besides the said person is basically insulting the E-V13 as a hg by trying to reduce it to a mere EEF farmer lineage which it is not (because of BA expansion). So I won't be playing nice with such a person.
I do not run away from a fight, and it is not easy to prevail in such a contest against me because I happen to know alot about humans, including their behavioral patterns..
The only reason I came to Eupedia is to debate on some hg's, initially it was just the one. I would say if the forum is about serious discussion the ones posting nonsense should be banned, there is no reason to debate what has already been determined as factual. Unless that is the plan, nonsensical talk can be "productive" in a sense that it increases the traffic, online chitchat "forum" can have alot more success than a "serious" site. I have experience in moderating much larger sites than Eupedia (not genetics, ethnology related, most people are not into that.)..
You need to comprehend the basics of Genetics. Formation date is not relevant when it comes to estimating the expansion time, TMRCA date is. Because From 8000 ybp to 4900 ybp E-V13 was a minor lineage likely confined to an area. 8000 ybp E-V13 simply separated from its sister Neolithic E-L618 branches. This 8000 ybp date (TMRCA for L618) is relevant for a small Neolithic expansion, and you see two other L618 clades, including one in Albania.. Again you are looking at the E-L618's TMRCA.. Expansions follow the TMRCA not formation date..
Parallel to V13 there are 43 other SNP's.. These signify a long bottleneck V13 went through. What is relevant is that millions of modern V13+ men descend from one person who lived 4900 ybp, that is already sufficient grounds to say that the E-V13 EBA bottleneck itself has nothing to do with any sort of Neolithic expansion whatsoever, be it Vinca, Tripillia, Lengyel, Cardial etc. It doesn't matter if an ancient DNA is found splitting the V13 node, he will be the sample which hasn't left any living descendants.. And how is that relevant for V13 bottleneck which has left huge number of descendants?
I do read, usually all or most, but already after few words I can see the pattern, like with this guy..
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E-V13 descend from a man who lived in 4600-4700 YBP, his name was Proteus and he traded with Ancient Egypt where he was put into hard labour for 15 years in building the Pyramids. Proteus was a strong man, he fathered many sons.
Archetype0ne
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I think the only issue is your rhetoric, because your points make total sense, pretty sound arguments overall. As someone who has had similar argumentative style I completely understand
Somehow arguments to people like us, even ones based in facts, get pretty confrontational.You are pretty knowledgeable regarding popular genetics and know your way around YDNA. But I would advice to be more patient with people who might not be on the same page. Thing with science is to reach a consensus, which in the end is just a consensus, even the strongest theory is up for falsification, and I think that is the point. The thing is even with really strong arguments, it is easy to make someone disagree with you simply on rhetorical grounds, due to confrontational argumentative style (talking from experience trust me). This way a consensus is avoided, even when both parties would otherwise agree...
Now, in the past I would take statements I perceived as wrong confrontationaly. And act similarly. But I think its very taxing for oneself to go that route. Some patience is beneficial both to your persuasive effort as well as educating someone that might not be on the same page.
PS: I am curious. How come you have such disdain for farmer lineages? IMO they are as important, if not more important in the development of modern men/societies as any invading Bronze Age "alphas*" :embarassed:
(*not really my opinion, I find it funny, but somehow I get the sense that that is your worldview)...Personally I do not really buy that much the narrative and dichotomy among anthropological forums, of ubermensch and plebs, invaders and helots, bronze age alphas and farmers... But that is just me, I am not sold.
But keep in mind people have different world views, for some people being an ancient farmer, among the first to thrust humanity into an era of surplus, the kind of surplus that allowed, V13 like people to have millions of descendants today is a pretty big deal :wary2:
.So maybe when they try to argue for a more ancient origin of V13, they do not mean to degrade your lineage...
PPS: My paternal ancestors owned and ran large farms up to 60 years ago, too much land to even be worked by one family, necessitating sharecroppers. I am in no way ashamed that my grandfathers when they were not needed in conflicts used to farm. Let alone any shame for what some ancestor 4000 years ago might have done to survive.
Aspurg
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I think the only issue is your rhetoric, because your points make total sense, pretty sound arguments overall. As someone who has had similar argumentative style I completely understand
You are pretty knowledgeable regarding popular genetics and know your way around YDNA. But I would advice to be more patient with people who might not be on the same page. Thing with science is to reach a consensus, which in the end is just a consensus, even the strongest theory is up for falsification, and I think that is the point. The thing is even with really strong arguments, it is easy to make someone disagree with you simply on rhetorical grounds, due to confrontational argumentative style (talking from experience trust me). This way a consensus is avoided, even when both parties would otherwise agree...
Now, in the past I would take statements I perceived as wrong confrontationaly. And act similarly. But I think its very taxing for oneself to go that route. Some patience is beneficial both to your persuasive effort as well as educating someone that might not be on the same page.
That much is true, one needs to have patience, but also I wasn't born with knowledge, I gained it, and these people who are not on the same page can make an effort and browse the forum. That's what I did originally, I didn't ask anyone for any explanation and clarification..
PS: I am curious. How come you have such disdain for farmer lineages? IMO they are as important, if not more important in the development of modern men/societies as any invading Bronze Age "alphas*" :embarassed:
Personally I do not really buy that much the narrative and dichotomy among anthropological forums, of ubermensch and plebs, invaders and helots, bronze age alphas and farmers... But that is just me, I am not sold.
But keep in mind people have different world views, for some people being an ancient farmer, among the first to thrust humanity into an era of surplus, the kind of surplus that allowed, V13 like people to have millions of descendants today is a pretty big deal :wary2:
So maybe when they try to argue for a more ancient origin of V13, they do not mean to degrade your lineage...
PPS: My paternal ancestors owned and ran large farms up to 60 years ago, too much land to even be worked by one family, necessitating sharecroppers. I am in no way ashamed that my grandfathers when they were not needed in conflicts used to farm. Let alone any shame for what some ancestor 4000 years ago might have done to survive.
These forums are indeed full of alpha vs beta, conqueror vs conquered etc. like are other forums in another way (in sports forums people argue all the time who's better etc.). I don't have disdain for EEF's, but IE's were the conquerors, EEF's were wiped out basically, EEF remnants be it cultural or genetic which survived did so by becoming "militarized" themselves. Etruscans, non-IE's for example were not "peaceful farmers". These EEF's from 7000 ybp were forgotten history 3000 ybp. In fact Early Rome was often dominated by the Etruscans, and Romans learned alot from them. That's how Roman Republic came to be, as Romans finally managed to liberate themselves from the Etruscan yoke in 509 BC.
In Ancient Greece pre-IE elements had huge influence in culture and autosomal DNA ofc. Not necessarily EEF (more of Minoan influence).
Farming was something practiced by most IE groups in Antiquity, the original IE's were nomadic people. Only peoples like Scythians, Sarmatians continued to live that lifestyle in Antiquity. Which is why they were genetically still pretty close to proto-IE's. Even Slavs were more distant from the proto-IE's, as they mixed with some non-IE EHG's.. So most of IE groups got sedentized and that usually meant taking up farming.
But you're exactly like ...this guy. No impartiality, huge consideration of itself an ofc the 'master-of-all' self haplo, a toolbag of preconceived ideas and no tolerance to other point of view. I'm aware of the albanian flooding continuous search for a 'golden' ancestry (stupid, ofc) but so you're. I must warn you you're not for the first time wrong about some old arguments which now are obsolete in the light of new discoveries; so may be it with your not enough proven EBA EV13 invasions. And I bet here you're wrong again. On the other hand, you think you know about DNA stuff but it's clear you don't have more notions than a regular guy using Wiki. About 'formed' and TMRCA you realy know NOTHING, because those notions aren't precise like you think. You know much of history but lack a mathematical mind. Look, and digest later, what are the real deal about, I quote: ''Formed" is the date on which the branch which WOULD contain the mutation diverged from other known branches. The mutation itself could have occurred at any time in between "formed" and "TMRCA". And: ''In real life (not just on paper), a patrilineal branch is a line of descent that diverges from its brethren. This branching is a biological fact, regardless of whether or not it is accompanied by a reliable SNP difference. Consider the very ancient haplotree branching dating from tens of thousands of years ago. In many cases, two "adjacent" branch points (e.g., TMRCA of C vs. TMRCA of C2) are separated by scores or even hundreds of SNPs. Without intermediate examples, we have no idea which of those many SNPs occurred first and which last.'' So, you can't mathematically/biologically distinct correctly the notions and only spray all us here with 'absolute notions', when we all know life and so the history is not....absolute. Even more in this field is a lot of 'relativism' for sure. Any time, new DNA evidences can occur and your EBA lame theory will be out. I bet again for a further push of EV13 TMRCA in time, understand bully boy ? Can I bet something here your 'highness'', just rhetorically because I don't need you're silver dollar swanning around shit. Capito ?
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Can u pack your shit, and do not mention the name of Albanians at all. Most of Albanians i know, the reasonable ones give reasonable explanation of the spread of E-V13, unlike some Balkan Slavs who insecure of their ancestry attack Albanians, using some gaps in historical timefrimes they fantasize about various shitty theories. I have seen Romanians cucking to them quite frequently against Albanians.
Archetype0ne
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I legit have no idea what is the reason for all the hate boners, implicit or explicit, from people not even discussing with us, or about us...
Could be a couple of things, but given the fact that we never even invaded any of our neighbors, counting so many wars... this leads me to believe its either "education" or should I say "indoctrination" from agenda driven Balkan schools, or some sick inferiority complex, but most likely both.
PS: LeoJ
WTF? does this
have to do with any of the points in your reply? Last time I checked we are not... In fact we got plenty of history, mostly attested by foreigners, exporting leaders and generals far and wide. But your main contact with Albanians if probably on Youtube :embarassed:
so... kinda your fault... Listen to Progon and don't mention our name in vain. Kapish?
PPS: Basarabs/Draculesti, Ghica, Basta ring a bell?
Can you stick to the topic please?
Albanians don’t need reminders from a confused nation split between a Latin or Dacian origin when in fact you’re more Slavic than many actual Slavs in the Balkans.
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Etruscans came after the trojan war from anatolia. They were trojan or one if the trojan allies
that's just a legend. Etruscans were an indigenous population of Italy.
Archetype0ne
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The truth is we do not really know precisely the veracity of the legend.
So far we have no reason to believe the legend given Y-DNA and Autosomal data from Etruscans. But this is largely due to the fact that we are in total darkness regarding Anatolian/Troy/Ilion DNA from the period, for any meaningful comparison.
So naturally using Occam's razor such theories should not be taken at face value as true.
Nevertheless, the opposite is also true, we can not outright say it is just a legend. For we do not know if* such a migration indeed occurred, what was the magnitude of it? A few dozen members of the royal families from Troy could have indeed emigrated to Etruria. Then their Y-DNA and Autosomal input could have melted among the locals.
As a final side-note, I highly doubt the Etruscan language and culture had anything to do with the culture in Ilion, given it was non-IE local based on modern consensus. Furthermore, I do not see how a dozen of individuals would have been able to bring their culture and language to the area.Nevertheless I acknowledge we can not falsify the hypothesis that a minor movement of nobles from Troy could have happened.
I think the upcoming Reich paper regarding Bulgaria will help one way or the other clarify the veracity of both hypotheses. Too bad we have to wait 2021 at minimum.
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