The Celts of Iberia

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One thing I don't understand about your criticisms, Grizzly, is how you mean to explain away the Celtiberian language as being Q-Celtic. If the Celts in Iberia were a minority from Gaul, wouldn't we expect P-Celtic to be spoken among them? Why the large difference?

Where do you see that this feature comes from the Celts ? It can be a influence of the pre-Celtic substratum.
Just an example : most of the French words with a latin root have come from Italy (the Romans to make it simple). Those words which begin by the sound "k" ("c" written -see castrum, canis), will keep this sound in the Italian and southern French dialects (see castello in Italian, castel in Southern France...). In Central and Northern France, they begin by the sound "sh" (ch written - see château, chien). In northern France, they begin again with the sound ("k" written "c" or "qu"- see cateau, quin). What does it mean ? That the Romance language from northern France comes directly from Italy without passing by Parisian region ? That Northern French is more archaic than Parisian French ? No, it is just an internal evolution. Either the substrate, either anything else, we will never know.

Apparently, you defend the autochtonous theory. If it is the case, you will have to explain fare more things (why did they spread only toward the north, the insignifiance of the Celtic heritage in Spain - chariots, oppida...) etc...

I don't say that I have all the answers. But I try to be consistent.

Your examples about Scandinavian language in Normandy also seems a bad refutation in light of this. Usually, a ruling class will use the same language as where they came from, but to establish a distinct language takes a long time of being the dominant culture in an area.

Using Q instead of P is not a "different language", but a different feature.
 
Where do you see that this feature comes from the Celts ? It can be a influence of the pre-Celtic substratum.

I find it more convincing that P-Celtic developed (possibly paraphyletically due to the apparent separateness of Brythonic and Gaulish) after the initial spread of Q-Celtic, which would have been original. But I understand the alternative that you're getting at now, at least.

Apparently, you defend the autochtonous theory. If it is the case, you will have to explain fare more things (why did they spread only toward the north, the insignifiance of the Celtic heritage in Spain - chariots, oppida...) etc...

I'm not really ready to defend any theory, I'm more familiar with British Celtic peoples than I am with the settling of Iberia. I am eager to learn more, I just currently see patterns that fit more closely to what Cambria and Wilhelm have been arguing that what you have argued. The apparent separateness of Celtiberian vs. Gaulish reminds me more of the development of English as a branch of the West Germanic languages than it does the domination of Normandy by the Scandinavians. In the first case, the Anglo-Saxons had to become dominant culturally before we saw a major shift in the language. In the second case, there was little shift in the language because they were like what you think that the Celts in Iberia were like--just a small ruling minority. Of course, apparent analogies like that rarely tell the whole story... so I'm still open to new ideas.

Using Q instead of P is not a "different language", but a different feature.

Do we have any idea regarding whether or not Celtiberian and Gaulish were mutually intelligible? From what I understand about it, it was probably intelligible to some degree, but had significant enough distinctions (P/Q split, along with differences in pronouns, etc.) to make it as much of a different language from Gaulish as Brythonic was. Am I way off here?
 
The apparent separateness of Celtiberian vs. Gaulish reminds me more of the development of English as a branch of the West Germanic languages than it does the domination of Normandy by the Scandinavians. In the first case, the Anglo-Saxons had to become dominant culturally before we saw a major shift in the language. In the second case, there was little shift in the language because they were like what you think that the Celts in Iberia were like--just a small ruling minority. Of course, apparent analogies like that rarely tell the whole story... so I'm still open to new ideas.

The difference between the situation of early medieval England and the antic Iberia is that there is :
- a proof that a Germanic language is spoken in England by the majority
- an archaeological and linguistic continuum between the Germanic languages from England and continental areas, via Holland and Flanders.

In SW Europe, the Celtic culture progressively disappears in SW France. I don't see (and it is not only a personnal view) why suddenly this culture should reappear in Iberia, where the evidences are weak and controversial : some toponyms, no chariot, no Celtic oppida...The situation of the Celts in Iberia seems to me rather like the Normans in England : French texts, French onomastics, sometimes French place-names...but anyway an English language and culture. I would say even that the French have marked the English culture in a greater extend than the Celts have done in Iberia.

I don't deny that the antic "Celtiberian" was a Celtic language, I deny that this language was the one of the majority.
 
Grizzly, the P/Q-split is technically an oversimplification of the interrelationship of the Celtic languages. What it means is that the P-Celtic languages have the mutation of "Q" (or "Kw") to "P". To give some examples:

the word or horse:
- Celtiberian "Ekuos"
- Old Irish "Ech"
- Modern Irish "Each"
- Gaulish "Epos"
- Welsh "Ebol"
- Breton "Ebeul"

the word for "son"
- Archaic Irish "Maqqos"
- Old Irish "Macc"
- Modern Irish "Mac"
- Gaulish "Mapos"
- Welsh/Breton "Mab"

If you compare outgroups (Lusitanian "Icco-" and Latin "Equus"), it's clear that "Q" is the original, more archaic state and "P" is the derived state. The Brythonic languages have the additional innovation of shifting "P" to "B". However, the P/Q situation isn't everything there is. The Brythonic languages and Gaulish share a number of common innovations absent in the other Celtic languages. For example, the mutation of "mr" and "ml" to "br" and "bl", respectively. (Gaulish "Broga", Welsh and Breton "Bro", compared with Old Irish "Mruig" - all meaning "homeland" or "area"). While I'd be careful demanding a Gallo-Brittonic stage (because Brythonic also shares a number of innovations with Goidelic), it's clear that Gaulish and Brythonic are more derived forms of Celtic whereas Goidelic and Celtiberian are more archaic.

I find the idea that the Celtiberians were recent immigrants, and that the Celtiberian language was only spoken by a small elite utterly unholdable, at least for the upper Ebro river area where the Celtiberian inscriptions have abundantly been found. Another problem are archaisms in Celtiberian which have been lost in almost all other Celtic languages: in particular, there is the suffix "-kue" (and), which also exists in Latin (famously, there is the phrase "Senatus Populusque Romanus"). The only other Celtic language which retains a similar suffix is Lepontic, another archaic Celtic language (in fact, the oldest undoubtably Celtic language, written in a variety of the Etruscan alphabet). However, because Lepontic is actually P-Celtic, the suffix is rendered as "-pe".

The conclusion is, Celtiberian must have split off first from all other Celtic languages, meaning that the Celtiberians must have arrived on the Iberian penninsula sufficiently early.
 
No. First, by the sources that I had posted. Second because it is completely non-sense that Celtic disappears in Southern France, and suddenly "re-shows-up" in Iberia.

Yes it would seem, at first glance, to be nonsense. But it is a real phenomenon. The Celtiberian inscriptions from the upper Ebro and Duero river areas cannot be just explained away. In fact, however, you may have partially given the answer yourself:

- p.55 : "The issue can be summed up as follows: The Castro Culture has its origins in the Late Bronze Age, and there is evidence for continuity and an indigenous evolution throughout the Early Iron Age."

It stands to reason that Celtiberian was spoken on the Iberian penninsula before the iron age. In other words, the Atlantic Bronze Age must have been, in parts at least, been Celtic-speaking. While I disagree with what the Atlantic School says (because I do not believe that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Façade), I still think that they do have a point:

- There is the Goidelic branch of the Celtic languages, which is also Q-Celtic.

- The linguistic situation on the British Isles is somewhat more drastic and problematic than the Iberian penninsula because of the complete absence of non-IE languages. This, in my opinion, speaks also in favour of an early Celticzation of Britain.

- Lepontic is attested from the 6th century BC onward, and it is already a P-Celtic language. Archaeologically, the Lepontii are part of the Golasecca Culture, which is separate from Hallstatt/La-Tene. This means the Q/P-split must have occured some time before 6th century BC.

- From Pytheas (4th century BC) we also have the term "Pritennike" attested, thereby we know that Britain must have been P-Celtic by the 4th century BC as well. We do however know that Britain was Q-Celtic speaking originally because the cognate for the word "Britain" or "Pritennike" is attested in Irish as "Cruithne". The original stem of the word would have been "Qritani".

- Finally, there's the Lusitanian language to be considered, which is technically speaking a non-Celtic language since it doesn't conform to Celtic sound laws (notably, no loss of initial P, or the change from -ur- to -ru-), but it's nonetheless an Indo-European language that is closely related with Proto-Celtic. If the Lusitanians were indeed an even earlier wave of Indo-Europeans which arrived in the west of the Iberian penninsula (while the east and south of the penninsula still remained inhabited by non-Indo-Europeans), it would perfectly explain how this sudden "island" of a Celtic-speaking area could appear to us later. In fact, there's evidence in Gallaecia of a Lusitanian substrate over which Celtic occured later.
 
I'm thinking of a Lusitanian substratum in Gaulish that could explain the nasal vowels in both Portuguese and French
 
Grizzly, this has nothing to do with the thread, but isn't your avatar that of a Black Bear?
A Grizzly is a sort of subspecies of Brown Bear. It is quite different.
 
The Celts of Iberia had no reason to live, talk like the rest of Europe, did the Celts the rest of Europe as the United States Central European Celts more islands?. The Celts in Iberia were met with a great culture in Iberia, nothing more and nothing less than to the emerging and preferred Tartessos Iberia that what they left beyond the Pyrenees, where there was only hunger, famine and constant movement, the Celts of Iberia should prefer the Iberian Celts to the rest of the rest of Europe to those who had forgotten immediately, except perhaps after further maintained contact with the islands for what the Irish Tin Road, the Tarshish, which already belonged to the Celts as part of the kingdom, who would remember the Gauls or how they spoke in central Europe, being in the most advanced country in turmoil and symbiosis with the rest of the Mediterranean?
 
Veo. Esta es, probablemente, muy mal traducido.. En cualquier caso, la presencia de los celtas de habla en la Península Ibérica en la antigüedad es una realidad. En particular, en la parte alta del Ebro y zonas altas del río Duero.
 
No hay de qué!

Sin embargo, la península ibérica antigua era un lugar de gran diversidad. En mi opinión, la península ibérica antigua se divide en una parte que habla indo-europeos y una parte que no lo hicieron. Las personas que eran indoeuropeos fueron: celtíberos, galaicos, lusitanos. Las personas que no eran indoeuropeos: vascos, iberos, tartesios. Los celtas eran, en mi opinión, no el primero indoeuropeos llegar la península Ibérica. De lo contrario, no puede explicar cómo el oeste de la península Ibérica se convirtió en ser tan a fondo indo-europeizado. Los lusitanos fueron los primeros. En Gallaecia, lusitano se habló en primer lugar, pero la gente vino a hablar celta más tarde.
 
Entre los investigadores espaÑoles existe gran controversia sobre este asunto,pero lo que esta claro es que el fondo genÉtico y cultural de la mayorÍa de los ibÉricos es predominantemente indoeuropeo...

Las personas se han quejado de que es imposible que una "isla" de oradores célticas de existir rodeado de gente no-celta. Sin embargo, si nos fijamos en el mapa moderno de Europa, tenemos islas de hablantes de las eslavas, romances (rumano) y urálicas (húngaro), rodeada por otros pueblos. También contamos con los anglosajones que emigraron a Gran Bretaña. En la península ibérica antigua, que no saben realmente lo que ocurrió en los siglos anteriores a los romanos llegaron. Tenemos algunas pistas con Gallaecia (que era lusitano antes). Pero no veo un problema como este "Isla de los oradores celta" podría haberse formado. Simplemente no sé cómo sucedió.
 
Grizzly, the P/Q-split is technically an oversimplification of the interrelationship of the Celtic languages. What it means is that the P-Celtic languages have the mutation of "Q" (or "Kw") to "P". To give some examples... it's clear that "Q" is the original, more archaic state and "P" is the derived state..

I have already answer you. Nothing in your examples proves that the Q should be more archaic than the P one, because of regular internal shifts. I have cited you somes examples in French, but there are many in other languages.

BTW, it does change nothing in my main purpose : I don't contest that the "Celtiberian" inscriptions belong to a Celtic language, I contest that the majority of the population spoke this language.

I find the idea that the Celtiberians were recent immigrants, and that the Celtiberian language was only spoken by a small elite utterly unholdable, at least for the upper Ebro river area where the Celtiberian inscriptions have abundantly been found.

Incriptions prove nothing. See latin texts in Medieval Europe. I didn't make a deep research, but I've read that Celtic inscriptions exist too in non-celtic regions. I don't speak about the Celtic toponyms, inscriptions or archaeological material in SW France (altars, objects...). We must admit that due to the very thin Celtic heritage in Iberia (no oppida, no chariots, few toponyms, strong pre-indo-european features...), Celtic culture stopped near the Garonne. This is what the scribes of Cesar constated, idem for many antic authors (they call Iberians living in th land of Celts "Celtiberians", like people living in France will be called "Franks" and later "French", while Frankish language was minority.
 
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It stands to reason that Celtiberian was spoken on the Iberian penninsula before the iron age.

No, simply because the Castro culture does not belong to the Celtic oppida area.


- The linguistic situation on the British Isles is somewhat more drastic and problematic than the Iberian penninsula because of the complete absence of non-IE languages. This, in my opinion, speaks also in favour of an early Celticzation of Britain.

The situation of the BI is problematic. Picts are candidates for the "non-IE languages", but it is controversial. Even the shift language in late Antic times is controversial (we know that the Saxons were probably present in the island under the Roman rule, but was this island already "English" speaking or not ?...).
 
I'm thinking of a Lusitanian substratum in Gaulish that could explain the nasal vowels in both Portuguese and French

Nasal vowels exist in Slavic languages too (Polish and Czech I think), and in some German dialects (especially western ones). I'm not sure, but western english dialects (region of Liverpool) might have nasal vowels too. Phonetics take their root in probably in very ancient times.
 
Grizzly, this has nothing to do with the thread, but isn't your avatar that of a Black Bear?
A Grizzly is a sort of subspecies of Brown Bear. It is quite different.

It is right. I choose my picture quickly.
 
No, simply because the Castro culture does not belong to the Celtic oppida area.

Archaeological affiliation and linguistic affiliation isn't mutually exclusive. For instance, the Urnfield Culture clearly wasn't ethnically homogenous either as it expanded clearly into Iberian-speaking areas (Catalonia - the Iberians are also well-known later on to have practiced cremation). Given how the Hallstatt and Golasecca Cultures evolved from Urnfield, it stands to reason that the Urnfield Culture was predominantly (P-)Celtic, but evidently not exclusively so.

The situation of the BI is problematic. Picts are candidates for the "non-IE languages", but it is controversial. Even the shift language in late Antic times is controversial (we know that the Saxons were probably present in the island under the Roman rule, but was this island already "English" speaking or not ?...).

Pictish, in my opinion, was a P-Celtic language akin to Gaulish and Brythonic. This is primarily based on onomastic evidence: most Pict The idea that Pictish was a non-IE language solely comes from purportedly "unreadable" Ogham inscriptions from Scotland, such as the Lunnasting stone. Given how easy it is to write gibberish with the Ogham script, I find it not very plausible to claim that these inscriptions represent a non-IE language.

Also, you have to consider that the term "Picts" is an exonym - they probably weren't a homogenous group.

Regarding the Saxons, are you arguing Oppenheimer's ideas?!?
 
Archaeological affiliation and linguistic affiliation isn't mutually exclusive.

Yes, I'm among the first to defend this idea.
But strongholds are often created by warring aristocraties. So, if academic sources have clearly proved that this archaeological material does not belong to the Celts (ie they have been created by pre-indo-european aristocraties), it closes the loop : it would mean that Celts were not even an aristocracy in those regions, but just minorities. Which is an "extremist" opinion. If it is not an aristocracy which has created them (it would be surprising), it means that the main make-up of the population was non-celtic...


For the Picts, I have not knowledge enough to answer. And for the Saxons, I have read it in several sources, and indeed, apparently, Oppenheimer supports this theory. I didn't say that I agree anyway. The fact is that it remains a mystery.
 
Yes, I'm among the first to defend this idea.
But strongholds are often created by warring aristocraties. So, if academic sources have clearly proved that this archaeological material does not belong to the Celts (ie they have been created by pre-indo-european aristocraties), it closes the loop : it would mean that Celts were not even an aristocracy in those regions, but just minorities. Which is an "extremist" opinion. If it is not an aristocracy which has created them (it would be surprising), it means that the main make-up of the population was non-celtic...

How do you explain tribal names that have readily identifiable Celtic etymologies in Gallaecia?

Also, I find you're making too much of a conjecture here: they're not Celts, so must be pre-Indo-Europeans. What about the Lusitanians? A lot of Gallaecian tribal names, while non-conformous with Celtic etymologies, are actually readily identifiable as Indo-European and conformous with Lusitanian sound laws.

For the Picts, I have not knowledge enough to answer. And for the Saxons, I have read it in several sources, and indeed, apparently, Oppenheimer supports this theory. I didn't say that I agree anyway. The fact is that it remains a mystery.

The main beef I have with Oppenheimer, he's a geneticist (not a linguist, and his ideas on the languages of Britain just make every linguist facepalm), he also uses outdated data (for example the idea that R1b originated in the LGM on the Iberian penninsula). Also, by his ideas he seems to be affiliated with British Nationalist ideas, which I find, mildly put, disgusting.

In any case, I would argue this: the place names in Roman Britain have clearly identifiable Celtic etymologies, as is the case across the Channel in Gallia Belgica. We also know that the 8th century Anglo-Saxon language was mutually intelligible with the Old Saxon language spoken in northern Germany. In my opinion, it's very possible that there were Saxon mercenaries in the late Roman period in Britain, but large-scale settlement by the Anglo-Saxons didn't occur until after the Roman withdrawal from Britain.
 
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