Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

And now with the Maykop paper they can check how their IE CHG were not colonizing the steppes in the right timeframe for common IE (common words for metals per example......)
 
Shulaveri-Shomu(which i find most probable)

Then tell me: Why, apart from genetics, would that culture be a candidate for being an early PIE culture?

Then how can we know that all the people in the shulaveri-shomu complex spoke the same language? Maybe the core was PIE, and the periphery were other people who just traded with the PIEans and imitated their material style?

But early PIE and late PIE don't show different substrates. The scenario you propose would even make that more remarkable than if Shulaveri was PIE entirely.

So the name of the material culture does not mean much. What means something is the geographical location and the timeframe.

Good, let us go by that road: Why, apart from genetics, would that geographical location be a candidate for early PIE?
 
L and J where not the earliest PIE speakers. R1b and J2 yes.
L is incoming population after 4900bc! PIE originals were already gone.

*L is incoming population from either a. beyond Kopet Dag, most likely very close to Jeitun Culture... b. an Iran south population moving up by zagros mountains.

*J2 is spectacular. this guys must be like the diplomats of pre-History. I know, makes no sense. Just a feeling.

There is no evidance that L is an "incoming population" but looks pretty native to me. You seems mixing modern samples with ancient DNA. R1b doesn't looks Indoeuropean (by origin) at this point. Key sites lack of R1b.
 
Time to remember me in 2015.

"Shulaveri-Shomu is the birth of the R1b expansion!
por Olympus Mons, em 09.01.16
*the European dominance of Y-dna Haplogroup R1b had its origin in a very specific culture of the Caucasus the Shulaveri-Shomu, Not Yamna, nor Maikop, nor Kura arexes… no! Places like Kwemo-Kartli and Mentesh tepe are the true Urheimat (homeland) of all western Europeans. And the spread of that cultural and genetic trait started in the Iberia peninsula, because after the immediate ending of the SSC not millennia but centuries later pure r1b (M269) inhabit the peninsula making the downstream clades that populate western world (L11 and M51).”


But it looks like I was wrong about the second part (bell beakers) .... or not.
Just amazingly how with just a week into the subject I knew this in my gut and not much later wrote the entry. As I said it then, just wanted to make the digital record associating Shulaveri to expansion of R1b...."




I would change "dominance" by "abundance" is not equivalent.
 
Epoch, from reading your hypothethical stuff on Anthrogenica, I can tell you that you are far away from knowing "what [we] all know". The scientific millieu is not supporting (almost nobody) the Kurgan hypothesis anymore. The PIE culture was not Yamnaya.

Below an interesting passage translated:
"Because exactly Hittite plays an important role in the "theorybuilding" of the linguists. On one hand this idiom is counted to that branch of the Indoeuropean languages which split as the first from the others. On the other hand Hittite does deliver the first written sources of that language family [...] And exactly here where Asia and Europe [Anatolia] meet geographically, every trace of the Yamnaya "genes" (this is an article for laymans that is why they use this undefining term) are missing. This wanderlusty people from the pontic-caspian Steppes did neither found, apparently, their way over the Balkans (as said by me for more than 2 years) nor over the Caucasus-mountains.[... some absurd "Kurgan" explanations are mentioned here... followed by Kristiansens opinion] Archaeologist Kristiansen however does not want to believe that. [...] He assumes that there must have been a predecessor of the the Yamnaya culture, in which a type of Pre-Proto-Indoeuruopean was spoken. And he also has an idea on where that people roved around: The Caucasus, means Kristiansen, was their homeland."
Dude... your statement is the proof that IE hypothesis turns into Political Correctness, your kurgans that you despite is the reason for IE's all over western and eastern europe with central asia and south asia. But no, Anatolians are more important, because... ? You seems to think like others, and even maybe those scientists, that if PIE came from the south caucasus it annihile all the rest of the history, like a pure Communist dream utopia. I'm not really choked, this is pretty much 2018.
 
Time to remember me in 2015.

"Shulaveri-Shomu is the birth of the R1b expansion!
por Olympus Mons, em 09.01.16
*the European dominance of Y-dna Haplogroup R1b had its origin in a very specific culture of the Caucasus the Shulaveri-Shomu, Not Yamna, nor Maikop, nor Kura arexes… no! Places like Kwemo-Kartli and Mentesh tepe are the true Urheimat (homeland) of all western Europeans. And the spread of that cultural and genetic trait started in the Iberia peninsula, because after the immediate ending of the SSC not millennia but centuries later pure r1b (M269) inhabit the peninsula making the downstream clades that populate western world (L11 and M51).”


But it looks like I was wrong about the second part (bell beakers) .... or not.
Just amazingly how with just a week into the subject I knew this in my gut and not much later wrote the entry. As I said it then, just wanted to make the digital record associating Shulaveri to expansion of R1b...."



At the end of the day you are still wrong. If Yamnaya and R1b ( wich is so much a ridiculous statement because M269 is not R1b it's M269 ) came genetically from Shulaveri-Shomu, they would not be 60% EHG but more likely 80% CHG. And what do you mean by " homeland of all western europeans " wtf is that kind of statement. I hope they give you your freaking R1b-M269 in Shulaveri just so you can do something else of your life and not being obsessed by genetic anymore.
 
Honestly, I think no one interested in this kind of very ancient pre-history (before literate civilizations, especially if we're talking of anywhere outside the Fertil Crescent) should expect any objective, empirical and hard proof linking this or that archaeological culture with a certain language or even with a certain genetic component. The best we can do, even for later periods of history, but especially for this one, is to expect to settle in a "high probability" scenario. Even if (or when) we have thousands of multidisciplinary evidences, the conclusions will still depend on interpretation based on probabilities and plausibilities. I won't hold my breath waiting for "proofs" that either Yamnaya or any other culture spoke PIE (including those of the Caucasus, none of which still seems to be named by scientists as a possible source of the CHG and supposedly PIE influx into the Neolithic/Eneolithic steppes). That won't happen.

Thats what i said bro.
Look ----> And that is probably not going to happen. Until then we will have varying hypothesis'.

And its a good thing imo that we will always have different hypothesis'. Because it makes scientists more productive and makes them investigate the PIE matter from a lot of different perspectives.
 
Why, apart from genetics, would that geographical location be a candidate for early PIE?

Stop cherry picking from my posts. You only answer the parts you like, and elegantly leave the rest out.
I remember why i told you on AG i wouldn't reply you anymore. You seriously lack the theoretical knowledge to be able to discuss something that happened that long ago.

The last answer you will ever get from me in any forum:

Apart from half of their genetics, the whole culture, the animals, the way of living, the wheels, the metals and the tools of the steppe people descend from the populations south of the caucasus.
Before the advent of the southerners, they were nothing but hunter gatherers.
I simply have a hard time seeing why the southerners should have a hard time imposing their language upon a couple of small bands of primitive hunters.
 
Stop cherry picking from my posts. You only answer the parts you like, and elegantly leave the rest out.
I remember why i told you on AG i wouldn't reply you anymore. You seriously lack the theoretical knowledge to be able to discuss something that happened that long ago.

The last answer you will ever get from me in any forum:

Apart from half of their genetics, the whole culture, the animals, the way of living, the wheels, the metals and the tools of the steppe people descend from the populations south of the caucasus.
Before the advent of the southerners, they were nothing but hunter gatherers.
I simply have a hard time seeing why the southerners should have a hard time imposing their language upon a couple of small bands of primitive hunters.

When the real self emerge from the limbo of the soul. You only have 34 messages here and you talk like you know everything. Epoch is a long time amateur in that community, he knows pretty much every possibility genetically, linguistically, culturally about the spread of PIE in ancient times. You better not turn out to be the sockpuppet of a more older user... If people brainstorm and question hypothesis this is not because triggering, this is because there is matter to question.
 
When the real self emerge from the limbo of the soul. You only have 34 messages here and you talk like you know everything. Epoch is a long time amateur in that community

So what if i have 34 posts. I try to keep it down on purpose.

Yes he is a long time amateur, i'm an archaeologist.
You know, those guys with the trowels who are writing the papers which the amateurs discuss. What counts more in your eyes?
In 3-4 years you are going to quote my papers on this forum and you are going to see my name on a lot of these archaeogenetic collaborations.
By that time you and epoch will still be on eurogenes and AG trying to push forward your disinformation.

he knows pretty much every possibility genetically, linguistically, culturally about the spread of PIE in ancient times. You better not turn out to be the sockpuppet of a more older user... If people brainstorm and question hypothesis this is not because triggering, this is because there is matter to question.
You don't know what you are talking about. He doesn't know anything. He hasn't read one single book on archaeological theory in his whole life. I can see that in every post he makes.
All he does is bring forward conspiracy theories which contradict what all the great institutes like Max planck, Copenhagen geogenetics and Harvard Labs. are saying.
 
The most simple explanation is that Maikop is more likely the origin of the Kartvelian side in IE languages. We can't legitimally take any Hittite sample for granted, their elite got burned and their people were mostly native to the place.
That is some bold statement and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for that my friend. Only some wishfull thinking of some bloggers. Hittites and Hattians became pretty much one and the same people (they basically merged). And their number was most likely equal. If there was even 10% Hittite inclusion into the Hatti population and you consider the Hittites as Steppe migrants, the way the Hatti and Hitittes became one people you would guarantee at least ~3-4% extra EHG admixture in comparison to their surroundings. But there is absolutely no sign for that.

That EHG is partially ANE, so at the end of the day, R1 had to have something to do with EHG if its not Q1a. We should probably also wait for the Willerslev Maikop paper that could have more sample of proper Maikop and surrounding steppes. All that Maikop and Kura-Araxes relation might be however interesting in the case of semitic languages or related hurrian languages and their historical relationship.

Imo Kartvellian is descend of an ANF family and not a CHG one. Maikop is not a homogenous culture. The North was Steppe admixed the South more ANF what if towards Leyla Tepe we find a little different genetic structure. Maikop was halfway ANF. Therefore it is quite possible that Kartvellian evolved out of a portion of Maikop. But I would not rule out that Hittites themselves might have evolved from there too. After Maikop was influenced by a Proto Indo European culture.
 
No, Hittite should be an early offshoot, possibly pre-Yamnaya and there is a fairly good candidate that would give enough time for dilution. Suvorovo-NovoDanilovka. A kurgan culture most likely from Sredny Stog, buried in barrows, sometime with zoomorphic scepters just like Khvalynsk. Settled in Mldavia, but also settled in the Danube delta, as direct successor of Varna round 4.400 BC. Remember that Varna outlier?

Well that could be... if we found any EHG signs, remember no additional EHG in Anatolian Samples and the yDNA does not fit the Steppes.



It's for an invasive culture quite natural to take on local wives.
Just that Hittite is not a "invasive culture". You are missing out allot here. You might have not known but by the time of the early Hittites there were no Charriots. Hittites were not even known horse tamers. They imported horses from Mitanni. In fact Hittite culture was basically Hattian. What kind of "invasive culture " completely assimilates into the "local culture?" Also there are historic proves that the relationship between Hittites and Hattians was not that of Invaders vs the conquered. No matter how often this superstition is repeated, it will not become more than wishfull thinking.

The next step would be Turkish Europe, where a at least one bronze age Kurgan style burial was found recently. If Luwians expanded from that, and Hittites from Luwians or somewhere around them, you'd see at least four steps. Enough time and enough movement for dilution. And it did leave traces of EHG.

PS: This is David Anthony's explanation.

"Bronze Age Kurgan Style burials" are found in the Caucasus too and they even predate Khvalynsk. That's what Anthony missed out.
 
A lot of different processes of Indo-Europeanization, including a complete revolution in a people's autosomal makeup, could happen in ~2300 years, especially if the Hittite society was, as it seems from archaeological and linguistic evidences, mainly a result of a gradual, non-massive infiltration and/or eventual elite conquest. Just look at some Turkic-speaking populations now and how much Northeast Siberian and East Asian they still carry after a mere ~1500 years of immigration, mixing and acculturation.

And the Turkic speaking groups are the best example of why even the most admixed groups still show signs of their ancestors in their DNA. You are making the mistake that you equate Turkic with East Eurasian DNA. But even the most pure Turkic speaking groups are at least 25% West Eurasian. Take in mind the distance between the first Turkic speaking groups and Anatolian Turks. And that the Anatolian Turks are from the Oghuz branch which evolved somewhere around modern day Turkmenistan. So the source for the Anatolian Turks are actually Turkmenistanis and not Kyrgyz. Even if you take Kyrgyz you still get something around 10% Turkic admixture. But if you take Turkmenistanis the admixture rises up to 20-30%.

"proto Steppe Hittites" completely ignoring their own females and going all out on "local" Hattian wifes is a possibility, but does that sound plausible. Not for me.

If that's what happened than for real they must have hated their own females or those girls must have been really really not good looking.
 
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That is some bold statement and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for that my friend. Only some wishfull thinking of some bloggers. Hittites and Hattians became pretty much one and the same people (they basically merged). And their number was most likely equal. If there was even 10% Hittite inclusion into the Hatti population and you consider the Hittites as Steppe migrants, the way the Hatti and Hitittes became one people you would guarantee at least ~3-4% extra EHG admixture in comparison to their surroundings. But there is absolutely no sign for that.

Well that's the same reasoning in the other side, if Maikop were CHG who give PIE to the steppe and later return south in Anatolia we should saw some EHG because Maikop have EHG, so if we didn't found any EHG is that those sample are neither related to the steppe, neither with Maikop. You actually applied the same mistakes you put to the steppe hypothesis into the southern hypothesis. Anatolians whatever the hypothesis need EHG, that they came from proper steppe or from Maikop / Kura-Araxes. Why you dont actually applied the " sample bias " to those anatolians one when you applied them into the steppe in the past ?

Imo Kartvellian is descend of an ANF family and not a CHG one. Maikop is not a homogenous culture. The North was Steppe admixed the South more ANF what if towards Leyla Tepe we find a little different genetic structure. Maikop was halfway ANF. Therefore it is quite possible that Kartvellian evolved out of a portion of Maikop. But I would not rule out that Hittites themselves might have evolved from there too. After Maikop was influenced by a Proto Indo European culture.
That is actually a bold statement.

We shall not discuss about Leyla-Tepe or Shulaveri Shomu until we have samples from them.
 
This is ignorance, being proven wrong and then accusing everyone of being Communists. You do not even know what the importance of the Anatolian branches for the PIE matter is, so how are you still speaking? And nobody is fighting your Steppe cowboys expanding their language further to Europe, but they were not PIE.
You even say yourself on Anthrogenica " you dont believe what those people say because they are right winged ". You complain about the negative reputation here, but you just give me a negative response. If you are not a *****, you are definitely mindless.
 
Someone else directed towards me a comment about Maikop being J1, G2 and L while Hittites J2 and G2. And therefore it not being plausible that Maikop is ancestral to Hittites.

Well there being absolutely zero link between Steppe and Hittite yDNA doesn't hinder the persons in their theory of a Steppe origin for Hittites now does it? So why is suddenly G2 link not enough to assume a connection?

Also where you find J1, J2 is usually not far away. They are still close enough. There being a complete lack of R1b L51 on the Steppe doesn't hinder the same persons to assume that it must have come from there, since R1b is found at this spot on mass, so why do they not show the same level of conviction in the case of Hittites and Maikop.

It's not only the yDNA that Maikop shares with Hittite. It's also in the aDNA. It is very similar.

Now let me give you few facts that speak against a Steppe origin of Hittites and why I am not convinced it comes from there.

1. Their aDNA. It absolutely shows no sign of "Steppe admixture" that has not been found already in previous samples from their surrounding.
2. Their yDNA. It shows no signs of Steppe admixture if we assume J2 and G2 were not found in the Steppe cultures.
3. The Elite argument does not work with Hittites due to their relationship with Hattians and the way the society was build. But even in the case of "Hittite" dominance above the "local" Hattians you would expect at least Steppe related yDNA.
4. Some of the more important linguistic points. Hittite,(don't know about Tocharian) is the only Indo European language that differs drastically from all the other Indo European families. If all the other Indo European families, of which we are pretty sure they originated on the Steppe share something that this one very archaic Indo European language called Hittite lacks. Than I would naturally assume this Hittite did not evolve at the same place as the other.

5. Another important point in my view. But not sure if true. I have heard that Hittite is the only known (not sure of Tocharian) Indo European language that lacks Finno_Ugric loanwords. If this is true, this can only mean. Hittite left the rest of the bunch before they came into contact with Finno_Ugrics how much more obvious than that can it be?


My own theory is this. I don't think Maikop is in origin PIE but part of it was Indo European or Indo Europeanized in that way that it might have given birth to Hittites and the other Anatolian branches. How does that work?

Well let me try to explain. If my theory of a NW Iran/Leyla Tepe origin of PIE(or PPIE) is true, than pioneers of this group would walk into two direction.

One into Maykop where they meet the Proto Hatti and the other directly into the Steppes. Those who went into Maykop became known as the Hittites. And I am thinking of the possibility that the Hattians and Hittites already met in Maykop and this might explain the one people structure of their society.

https://img3.picload.org/image/doldwwpr/nc_all_sites.jpg

Please note: the Theory that Hittite and Hattians already met in Maykop and that Hittite actually stems from Maykop is just some speculative idea that I think has gained some weight due to the DNA found in Maykop and among the Hittites. It is not a theory I am 100% sure off.
 
@Halfalp I can't answer your post now but one think. Please read my post again. I never said Maykop is PIE. I am saying Maykop is/might be influenced by PIE and Hittite might be the result of this influence.
 
Someone else directed towards me a comment about Maikop being J1, G2 and L while Hittites J2 and G2. And therefore it not being plausible that Maikop is ancestral to Hittites.

Well there being absolutely zero link between Steppe and Hittite yDNA doesn't hinder the persons in their theory of a Steppe origin for Hittites now does it? So why is suddenly G2 link not enough to assume a connection?

Also where you find J1, J2 is usually not far away. They are still close enough. There being a complete lack of R1b L51 on the Steppe doesn't hinder the same persons to assume that it must have come from there, since R1b is found at this spot on mass, so why do they not show the same level of conviction in the case of Hittites and Maikop.

It's not only the yDNA that Maikop shares with Hittite. It's also in the aDNA. It is very similar.

Now let me give you few facts that speak against a Steppe origin of Hittites and why I am not convinced it comes from there.

1. Their aDNA. It absolutely shows no sign of "Steppe admixture" that has not been found already in previous samples from their surrounding.
2. Their yDNA. It shows no signs of Steppe admixture if we assume J2 and G2 were not found in the Steppe cultures.
3. The Elite argument does not work with Hittites due to their relationship with Hattians and the way the society was build. But even in the case of "Hittite" dominance above the "local" Hattians you would expect at least Steppe related yDNA.
4. Some of the more important linguistic points. Hittite,(don't know about Tocharian) is the only Indo European language that differs drastically from all the other Indo European families. If all the other Indo European families, of which we are pretty sure they originated on the Steppe share something that this one very archaic Indo European language called Hittite lacks. Than I would naturally assume this Hittite did not evolve at the same place as the other.

5. Maybe the most important point in my view. But not sure if true. I have heard that Hittite is the only known (not sure of Tocharian) Indo European language that lacks Finno_Ugric loanwords. If this is true, this can only mean. Hittite left the rest of the bunch before they came into contact with Finno_Ugrics how much more obvious than that can it be?


My own theory is this. I don't think Maikop is in origin PIE but part of it was Indo European or Indo Europeanized in that way that it might have given birth to Hittites and the other Anatolian branches. How does that work?

Well let me try to explain. If my theory of a NW Iran/Leyla Tepe origin of PIE(or PPIE) is true, than pioneers of this group would walk into two direction.

One into Maykop where they meet the Proto Hatti and the other directly into the Steppes. Those who went into Maykop became known as the Hittites. And I am thinking of the possibility that the Hattians and Hittites already met in Maykop and this might explain the one people structure of their society.

https://img3.picload.org/image/doldwwpr/nc_all_sites.jpg

Please note: the Theory that Hittite and Hattians already met in Maykop and that Hittite actually stems from Maykop is just some speculative idea that I think has gained some weight due to the DNA found in Maykop and among the Hittites. It is not a theory I am 100% sure off.
Maikop is J2a not J1, it's Kura-Araxe that is J1. G2 is also linked with modern Caucasian Languages no ?
 
And Olympus Mons, can you please stop negative writing all my posts because you dont like me >:D.
 
Maikop is J2a not J1, it's Kura-Araxe that is J1. G2 is also linked with modern Caucasian Languages no ?
That's what I said at the beginning but someone tried to tell me Hittites were J2a and Maykop J1. So Maykop was J2a, G2 L and what about Hittites? Weren't say J2 and G2 too? Still even if they were J1 my argument still stays.

I explained myself in the posts above. I believe Caucasian languages (at least Kartvelian) is linked to ANF ancestry and therefore G2. The reason for this is simple. Kartvelian shows linguistic structures also found in Basque but lacking in other (ergativity) and Kartvelians are dominated by G2 Haplogroup too.
 

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