Macedonians

spartan owl said:

ok then tell me what do you think about pelasgians and dorians were they albanians or not?But i have even see an albanian guy with the nickname dorian.
Sorry anyway in advance if you don't belive that.

Click to expand...

Read my posts in the last pages of this thread. Yes it's true, i know Albanians with name Dorian. Exist also the name Doriana for female. What's the problem here?

The Albanians first appear as 'natives' in and expand out of Central-Northern Albania in the late middle ages towards all directions (Kosovo, Epirus, southern Greece). We'll just go with the mainstream theory. Their previous Balkan associations, Dacian or Illyrian, will (probably) unfortunately remain ultimately unknowable but one can take their pick by personally weighing the evidence for either theory. Either one is a rational choice.

So fourth century Albanians in Cyprus or seventh century Albanians in the Peloponnese or "Avaro-Slavs" actually denoting Albanians...yeah. No need to keep digging up 19th century theories that didn't pan out much for good reason.

LATGAL said:

The Albanians first appear as 'natives' in and expand out of Central-Northern Albania in the late middle ages towards all directions (Kosovo, Epirus, southern Greece). We'll just go with the mainstream theory. Their previous Balkan associations, Dacian or Illyrian, will (probably) unfortunately remain ultimately unknowable but one can take their pick by personally weighing the evidence for either theory. Either one is a rational choice.

So fourth century Albanians in Cyprus or seventh century Albanians in the Peloponnese or "Avaro-Slavs" actually denoting Albanians...yeah. No need to keep digging up 19th century theories that didn't pan out much for good reason.

Click to expand...

There are two problems with your post.
1) It's totally inaccurate. I don't know where you have read this "mainstream theory". Does not exist such an "mainstream" theory, as described by you. If your scholars and their masters have produced such a theory, well, this is pseudo history and as such, can be easily debunked.
2) I want to draw your attention to an important fact. You are off topic. This thread is not about Albanians. There are many threads here about Albanians, or you can open a new one and there we can discuss this topic, always if you have an genuine interest on this topic. And this is an invitation for all the participants in this thread.

You brought up Albanians in 4th century AD Cyprus if you recall.

Anyway, read George Hill - A History of Cyprus Vol. 1, pp. 260-261 to clear up this particular confusion you're perpetuating.

LATGAL said:

You brought up Albanians in 4th century AD Cyprus if you recall.

Anyway, read George Hill - A History of Cyprus Vol. 1, pp. 260-261 to clear up this particular confusion you're perpetuating.

Click to expand...

No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus. I quoted an important greek scholar who was not just an historian as many others. He was one of those rats of archives. Anyway, i have to admit that the mainstream of the scholars don't support this theory of Sathas, but there are scholars who have been interested about this fact. So, we can't say closed case.
Thank you for your suggestion. I will try to find this book. Interesting that you didn't suggested to me a genetic study. Probably because is hard to discover something, because the today inhabitants of Cyprus are mostly the descendants of the Armenians settled in this island by Roman rulers. Is this fact mentioned by George Hill in his book?

LABERIA said:

No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus.

Click to expand...

No, I send them to Ukraine, remember ?

Anyway if Reich is correct, then the 'Autochthonos' is crap, at least in linguistic matters.

and maybe should search in other areas like the origin of Normands?

Yetos said:

No, I send them to Ukraine, remember ?

Anyway if Reich is correct, then the 'Autochthonos' is crap, at least in linguistic matters.

and maybe should search in other areas like the origin of Normands?

Click to expand...

Yetos, this thread is not about Albanians. Do you understand this?
BTW, how can be translated in English this two words used by you, emigmatic and ainigmatic? I am very curious.

LABERIA said:

No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus. I quoted an important greek scholar who was not just an historian as many others. He was one of those rats of archives. Anyway, i have to admit that the mainstream of the scholars don't support this theory of Sathas, but there are scholars who have been interested about this fact. So, we can't say closed case.
Thank you for your suggestion. I will try to find this book. Interesting that you didn't suggested to me a genetic study. Probably because is hard to discover something, because the today inhabitants of Cyprus are mostly the descendants of the Armenians settled in this island by Roman rulers. Is this fact mentioned by George Hill in his book?

Click to expand...

I think we can fairly say "case closed" on that particular issue. Everyone else seems to have done so.

I didn't suggest a genetic study because it had nothing to do with your claim and because I'm barely more knowledgeable than you are on that topic (but probably a slightly bit more based on your general statements). Your scenario of being "mostly the descendants of the Armenians" is something that genetics seems to debunk unless you're also positing that the early medieval Armenians were Cypriot-like and changed completely into modern Armenian-like after that, just to save something that seems untenable. Pretty sure there was a discussion of a recent paper on Cypriot Y-DNA on this site too (let alone the main pages of this site detailing Y-DNA haplogroups to an extent) that you could easily look into if you actually cared to, beyond positing anything you can think of based on one or another historical reference you came across.

LATGAL said:

I think we can fairly say "case closed" on that particular issue. Everyone else seems to have done so.

Click to expand...

Not we, you. It is your historians who from time to time return to these stories.

LATGAL said:

I didn't suggest a genetic study because it had nothing to do with your claim and because I'm barely more knowledgeable than you are on that topic (but probably a slightly bit more based on your general statements). Your scenario of being "mostly the descendants of the Armenians" is something that genetics seems to debunk unless you're also positing that the early medieval Armenians were Cypriot-like and changed completely into modern Armenian-like after that, just to save something that seems untenable. Pretty sure there was a discussion of a recent paper on Cypriot Y-DNA on this site too (let alone the main pages of this site detailing Y-DNA haplogroups to an extent) that you could easily look into if you actually cared to, beyond positing anything you can think of based on one or another historical reference you came across.

Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Cyprus#Byzantine_Era_.28578.E2.80.931191.29

You are the one who keeps bringing these theories up though (and Sathas himself seems to have had a bit of a varying opinion on the matter if you compare what he wrote in his 'Medieval Library' and in his 'Monuments of Greek History'). I referred to a source that provides the mainstream view on this anyway.

The presence of Armenians in Cyprus is well-known, the Armenian community still exists after all. This has nothing to do with your other assertions, look at genetics a bit at least. Unless we also need to accept that the Albanian Mirdites have a specific, strong Levantine component based on the same authors you refer to (which also finds no specific corroboration with genetics).

I can't figure it out where does it 12,6% R1a at Albanians comes from? It does not appear to be slavic since at Slavs the ratio I:R1a is aproximately 2:1. In this case for Macedonians is 27.50:14.20. For Albanians in Macedonia the ratio is 1.80: 12.60. Also Albs appear to have about 10% northern linage

Garrick said:

Regulus
Haplogroups of todays Macedonians are similar Serbian.

Ok in Serbia is more strongly expressed I (nearly 48%) while in Macedonia E (over 24%) is a stronger than in Serbia but this is probably because of the large Albanian minority, which accounts for 25% of the population in that country.

Nearly many Serbs once spoke the language very similar to today's standard Macedonian, and many Macedonians spoke language very similar todays Serbian, just standardization two languages has made to similar forms slowly forget.

If someone really studied non-political background is likely to determine the current population of the country whose official name of FYROM is actually originating from Serbs, not Bulgarian, but in my opinion, people can identify themselves as they wish, only Bulgarians have no right to be claim to.

Personally I regret that there is a conflict with Greece, and I think it's partly political, and that the Macedonian leadership to be more flexible, but it is my individual opinion, I like Skoplje and other places and often I was there.

Click to expand...

There is nothing Serbian in today's Macedonians and stop spreading your Serbian propaganda around...
I am a Macedonian with e-v13 y-dna haplogroup and my matches are mostly English, Bulgarian, Italian...
It's suggested that id descend from the native people who lived here before the arrival of the Slavs.

Also my autosomal dna ged match eurogenes k13 and k15 result suggests similarity with Greek Thessaly and Bulgaria.

Here is the haplogroup diversity in modern Macedonans:

I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E1b1b T Q N
3 23 1.5 13.5 12.5 4 14 2 21.5 1.5 0.5 0.5

As we can see, it's much different distribution than in the Serbs where J2 and R1b are poor, and I2a is much more than in Macedonians.

Once again stop spreading lies about the Macedonians, we have nothing to do with you.

DuPidh said:

I can't figure it out where does it 12,6% R1a at Albanians comes from? It does not appear to be slavic since at Slavs the ratio I:R1a is aproximately 2:1. In this case for Macedonians is 27.50:14.20. For Albanians in Macedonia the ratio is 1.80: 12.60. Also Albs appear to have about 10% northern linage

Click to expand...

I think I2a-Din was the dominant medieval Slavic lineage, however, R1a also participated back to back. Kind of like E-V13 and J2b for modern Albanians. From what I have read, Gimbutas suspects M458 originated with the Baltic peoples, and was later consumed by Slavic and Germanic tribes.

When it comes to R1a, the most dominant in South Slavs seems to be Z280. M458 has decent proportions in Dalmatia. M458 is believed to correlate to the early Slavic tribes during the great migration and maybe earlier, that was mostly assimilated into Byzantium(in the case of Greece and Albania). M458 is highest in Bulgarians as far as southern Balkans is concerned. If the Avaro-Slavs are responsible for it, then it would have to be either the Baiounitai(settled in central and southern Albania, including northern Greece). Or the Dragouvitai, which settled in Macedonia and North-East Greece. Both were defeated and assimilated by the Byzantines, whilst other slavic tribes became the modern south slavs.

I recently tested FullGenomes as was confirmed M458-L1029*. The asterisk denotes basal L1029, negative downstream. My TMRCA with closest FGC matches was 2350ypb(2 Germans). My closest match is still an Albanian with 1000ypb TMRCA, from Gostivar. We are suspected to form an "Albanian" cluster within L1029.

Personally, from what I have read of historical tribal movements(regardless of Balto-Slavic origins originally) is that East Germanic tribes like Ostrogoths, and Bastarnae, spread throughout east europe of to the Balts. They could have absorbed and brought L1029 much earlier. You also have M458* popping up in Balkars and Nogai in North Kavkaz. It could have come with Avars and Volga Bulgars too. Another possibility is the Varangian Guard, which were "Vikings" hired from the Viking settlment in Kievan Rus. They were eventually conscripted from Russia to the Baltics to Scandinavia. L1029 pops up in England too, which could easily be from Pomeranian Vikings.

My branch is kind of on its lonesome, I have 25 unique SNPs discovered, and one SNP(though very unstable) is suspected to form a novel clade upstream of YP263 which seems more commonly found in Scandinavians, Germans, English(per yfull). Per R1a project admin, YP263 is over represented on Yfull, and that supposedly more samples come from East Europe. YP263(which I am negative for) is considered to be predominantly East Balkan.

Personally I think the science is too early to make any conclusions. Dacians which were still active in the early middle ages, spread up to the Balts. Thracian and Dacian shares some elements with Proto-Baltic as well. I can't see how M458-L1029 was "walled up" like some ******* white walkers in Game of Thrones, and only decided to pop up out of nowhere in the middle ages with Slavs. Seems a tunnel vision view of this line.

Im sure within the coming years as the branches grow, and ADNA starts popping up we will know more. If a study of Arberesh is anything to go by, Modern Albanian Y-DNA distribution changed significantly in the short 500 years. Imagine 2000 years how much these lines changed. Per Arberesh, they had practically no J2b, V13 is still highest, but nothing by comparison to modern distributions. R1b-M269 and I2 and R1a are significantly higher in Arberesh than modern Albanians.

I think alot of what people go off of is fragmented factual science mixed with a shit ton of speculation.

Heres me on yfull btw: My ancestors are from Okshtun i Vogel, very isolated part of Diber Vogel in Albania.

Dibran said:

If a study of Arberesh is anything to go by, Modern Albanian Y-DNA distribution changed significantly in the short 500 years. Imagine 2000 years how much these lines changed. Per Arberesh, they had practically no J2b, V13 is still highest, but nothing by comparison to modern distributions. R1b-M269 and I2 and R1a are significantly higher in Arberesh than modern Albanians.

Click to expand...

Not sure why you would think that modern Arbëresh Y-DNA frequency represents how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago.
First of all, Arbëresh are predominantly of southern (Tosk) origin. So, by no means do they represent all areas inhabited by Albanians. Secondly, their high levels of typical south Italian HGs, like E1b non V13 which is close to inexistent among Albanians, suggests they have mixed with Italians or experienced a "genetic drift". Therefore, they should not be taken as representative of how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago.

Trojet said:

What makes you think that modern Arbëresh Y-DNA frequency represents how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago, lol. First of all, Arbëresh are predominantly of southern (Tosk) origin. So, by no means do they represent all areas inhabited by Albanians. Secondly, their high levels of typical south Italian HGs, like E1b non V13 which is close to inexistent among Albanians, suggests they have mixed with Italians or experienced a "genetic drift". Therefore, they should not be taken as "evidence" how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago.

Click to expand...

Never said it was a definite. Merely that these Y-DNA frequencies fluctuate over time. Because this is the case, no concrete claims should be made based upon modern distributions. Not excluding the fact that people deal absolutes over trace samples of ADNA. Also, Southern Albanians are still closer to Northern Albanians with Y-DNA frequencies. At least from Tosk results I have seen so far(on the project).

Theres too much certainty about all these haplogroups when ADNA is rather dry in most instances. Alot of conclusions are drawn based on modern samples(which number only over a few thousand in wealthier countries or far less than a thousand in most impoverished countries) and borders. We may have an idea of who carried what when and where, but most of it is too early to tell.

I am sure when NGS is really cheap that we will learn a ton of information. I also read somewhere that there are new methods of extraction that will make extracting DNA from more ancient samples a possibility and less problematic. I need to find the article. It was posted by one of the admins here or on anthro last summer.

Dibran said:

Never said it was a definite. Merely that these Y-DNA frequencies fluctuate over time. Because this is the case, no concrete claims should be made based upon modern distributions. Not excluding the fact that people deal absolutes over trace samples of ADNA. Also, Southern Albanians are still closer to Northern Albanians with Y-DNA frequencies. At least from Tosk results I have seen so far(on the project).
Theres too much certainty about all these haplogroups when ADNA is rather dry in most instances. Alot of conclusions are drawn based on modern samples(which number only over a few thousand in wealthier countries or far less than a thousand in most impoverished countries) and borders. We may have an idea of who carried what when and where, but most of it is too early to tell

Click to expand...

Sure, modern Y-DNA frequency is as a result of bottlenecks, founder effects, etc, and should not be taken as evidence of what the distribution would've looked like 2000 years ago.

However, their origins/migrations, is a different story, which we can make good hypothesis in light of available data and ancient DNA evidence.

Trojet said:

Sure, modern Y-DNA frequency is as a result of bottlenecks, founder effects, etc, and should not be taken as evidence of what the distribution would've looked like 2000 years ago.

However, their origins/migrations, is a different story, which we can make good hypothesis in light of available data and ancient DNA evidence.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, I agree. The sad fact is majority of people take it like its set in stone. Btw, any luck with my match? I take it he said no? Hope not

Dibran said:

Absolutely, I agree. The sad fact is majority of people take it like its set in stone. Btw, any luck with my match? I take it he said no? Hope not

Click to expand...

No response yet. I'll try again in the next couple of days, but not looking good.

Trojet said:

No response yet. I'll try again in the next couple of days, but not looking good.

Click to expand...

Thanks, man. It's a shame. Maybe he rarely checks his email lol.

The current Macedonian DNA (FYROM) is predominantly Balkan (Southern Slavic) but also with Greek influences plus small influences from other populations (Turks, Gypsies)